Are CoP judges ruining footwork sequences?

[Mathman]

Survival of the fittest.

IMHO the same is true of the sport. Figure skating must find a way to put something before the public that they want to watch, or fade away.

 

[anya_angie]

FYI, Scott Hamilton complained that Kulik's footwork wasn't difficult enough.

In general, CoP has influenced footwork in a GOOD way. We are seeing more and more footwork that is worth taking note of.

But, there is room for improvement. The rules need to make sure that good-looking footwork is rewarded and that people can choreograph TO the music, rather than just putting extra brackets into the footwork sequence because it's needed to get that higher level.

I know he said that, but though it wasn't difficult, it was performed very well.

 

[enlight78]

Thanks GKelly and GSRossano.

IIRC it is the clear and express intention of the CoP not to allow the GOEs on easier elements to bring them up to the value of the next level.

I believe that they specifically had to modify the pairs base values last year to make sure that a double twist with positve GOE could not earn as many points as a triple twist with 0 GOE. (In fact, if I remember correctly, some of the big twisters on the competitive scene complained to the ISU that they weren't getting enough reletive credit for their triple (or quadruple) twists).
.

CoP just lost any bellief and support I had in it. In any artistic sport (diving, gymnastics, even half-pipe snow boarding) quality is > or = to difficulty as being an important facter in rewarding points. Just tell skaters to wave there arms wildly, have seizures, throw in as many rotations possible. Don't worry how it looks or about technique. If I want to see fugly skating I'll watch America's Funniest Home Videos and It comes on every week at a convient time.

 

[gsrossano]

But, apparently the judges do want to see just exactly that.

"That" being "arms a-flail, punctuating their progress with bizarre stops and starts and awkward-looking balance checks."

I don't agree. This aspect of step sequences comes from the full body movement feature. It is a search for a level -- not the judges' issue.

I would blame the choreographers who seem to think the only way to incorporate full body movement is the full body seizure approach. One can, IMO, choreograph full body movement that is more graceful and fluid than what we normally see.

As for the starts and stops they don't really help buy a level, and the only purpose they potentially serve for me is in choreography and in interpretation.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

CoP just lost any bellief and support I had in it. In any artistic sport (diving, gymnastics, even half-pipe snow boarding) quality is > or = to difficulty as being an important facter in rewarding points. Just tell skaters to wave there arms wildly, have seizures, throw in as many rotations possible. Don't worry how it looks or about technique. If I want to see fugly skating I'll watch America's Funniest Home Videos and It comes on every week at a convient time.

So true! The things that separate Figure Skating from Diving, Gymnastic, Snow Boarding or other sports based on Tricks however ballet-like form (Diving) is the Flow on Ice together with the sharp execution of basic turns with proper posture and arm positions. It is indeed the big difference between figure skating and all forms of stage dancing.

It seems to me that my above take on figure skating is judged in the PCS scores which are so closely related to the Technical. I don't think much can change this even with the best intentions. WOW moves even in simple footwork, will get more points, add on a quad or two and what else matters?

Joe

 

[Wrlmy]

I just watched Carolina Kostner's new SP and her step sequence is just awesome. so fluid and so in tune with the music. I think Lori did a great job with choreography again this year after last year's Cannon. I agree with most posters that CoP has somewhat negative impact. Skaters who lack good/superb skating skill look like they are stumbling during their step sequence (ex) Emily Hughes in her Carmen SP. But, when well done, it just becomes the highlight of the program. I still have some faith in CoP in that aspect.

 

[hockeyfan228]

What gkelly said.

It is perfectly fixable within the system.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Michelle Kwan won 9 national titles and 5 worlds titles and 2 olympic medals without ever having a dfficult step sequence.

That's not true. Many of her short programs (Rach, East of Eden, Rush, Spartacus, Dream of Desdemona) had difficult step sequences. Aside from the sequence in Bolero, the ones in her long programs may not have been that difficult though.

I agree with your argument that many times simpler footwork is better; I just don't think that blanket statement about Kwan is an accurate example.

 

[mzheng]

All the programs look alike --- Men and Ladies. And all the Pairs programs look basically alike. Dance too.

I don't mind the "idea" of CoP. It just isn't working.

Then this even worse than 6.0 system? In 6.0 system, only certain skaters are criticized they skated to the same program year after year only have music changes.....Now all skaters skated the same?

 

[hockeyfan228]

Just about all of the skaters under 6.0 skated the same program, if you actually went to the competitions. Same non-existent footwork, same sloppy sit-change-sit, same godawful spirals. Just because US audiences saw four or five of the best skaters on TV doesn't mean that this was representative of the general competition.

I just re-watched Maria Butyrskaya's brilliant performance to Otonal when she won Worlds in 1999. There was nothing resembling a footwork sequence and if her spiral sequence lasted 11 seconds, 7 of them were spent stroking between positions.

While there were lovely simple layback spins, some nice spirals, an occasional skater like Slutskaya or Ito or Biellmann who had terrific spins under 6.0, and flowing footwork, IMO the main difference between 6.0 and CoP was that under 6.0, skaters could do little badly and in a shorter amount of time, while under CoP, they have to attempt a lot and have incentive to do a lot badly for a longer stretch.

 

[Lumi]

Just about all of the skaters under 6.0 skated the same program, if you actually went to the competitions. Same non-existent footwork, same sloppy sit-change-sit, same godawful spirals. Just because US audiences saw four or five of the best skaters on TV doesn't mean that this was representative of the general competition.

Thank you, this is just what I ment. I think especially spins have gotten better overall.

And if you talk about figure skating fading away... I am sure most of people prefer to watch Zhang's amaizing and fast layback spin rather than Kwan's boring sitspin which rotated like one revolution/minute.

 

[krenseby]

Sadly, I agree with Gio. This is the price we have paid for wanting to make figure skating more like a "real sport."

Yes, under CoP judging figure skating is more like a "real sport." And less like performance art.

Only time will tell whether this trade-off will increase the popularity of skating or kill it off once and for all.

Kill it once and for all? The death of figure skating?

Nah, that won't happen

What will happen are drastic changes if ratings and attendance drops off and the strict requirements of the COP get blamed for it. At that point, the federation will make a sharp turn towards the artistic side?

How? By removing all jumps from the short program and turning it into an artistic program! All those ladies that mastered their spins, spirals, jumps, and the requisite footwork will be required to skate musically and interpretatively in the short.

Of course, many skaters will fall into a panic because their perfect jumping and spinning technique won't be enough to help them do well in the interpretative short. These people will hate the new system!

 

[Mathman]

...IMO the main difference between 6.0 and CoP was that under 6.0, skaters could do little badly and in a shorter amount of time, while under CoP, they have to attempt a lot and have incentive to do a lot badly for a longer stretch.

Kind of a left-handed compliment to the good old CoP.

But actually, I think it is a point in favor of the new system. You can't just leave out stuff that you can't do well, and you have to work on your weaknesses as well as on your strengths.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Kind of a left-handed compliment to the good old CoP.

Not at the system as a whole, though. The incentives from the points standpoint can be fixed, as gkelly has pointed out so well.

Whether the judges can be pressured into giving appropriate GOE -- as grossano pointed out -- -1 through -3 where appropriate (and not mandated, like in a fall) -- and especially +2 and +3 and risk going out of a corridor -- in my opinion, a self-defeating implementation -- is yet to be seen.

 

[mvick]

I just don't get all the COP bashing. I think COP has just made things LOT better. No more super sloppy spins and non-existing footwork. Before COP, it was just jump after jump and so on...

Now skaters are training spins and footworks. I think BOTH diffuculty and quality are better these days. Atleast on average...

Btw I loved Mao's SP footwork. Nothing overdone, she made it look so easy.

These days with the COP, you don't see a program that is all about jumps and have little presentation. Skaters now, work on their presentation and spins to receive higher program components marks. I find the skates much more interesting (good skates or not) You can no longer do well on just jumps. I'm for sure spending more time on the footwork and spins. They now take much more energy in the program. They cannot be used as a breather for skaters anymore.

The COP still need to be fixed don't get me wrong. The new guidelines with spins this year have made it more difficult to achieve level 4 spins. You can't do a whole bunch of difficult positions in a spin because you won't receive level fours. What I interested to see with skating on tv if the spins have slow down because at the competitions I compete at, the spins have deficiently slowed down (most are trying to do 8 revolutions of the basic position...which slows the spin right now if not done correctly).

 

[mskater93]

Spins and footwork have nothing to do with PCS marks, they get scored in their own right and are part of the TES mark. PCS is still subjective.

As for L4 spins, it's the same as last year with the addition for the solo spin to have 8 revs in the basic position as a feature. The same people are still getting L4 on the CCoSp, CoSp and flying spins. The nice thing is that they can't do 2 CCoSp's anymore. 8 revs in the basic position as a feature is actually easy to use to get at least a L2 because you can also use that to gain a "clear increase in speed" feature once your 8 revs is complete.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't blame the CoP for changing the performances of skaters.

Long before Ballet was born in Italy during the Reinassance (sp), Acrobatic Dancing and Juggling were in vogue, and acrobatic dancers did indeed point their toes and flash their arms around. (Court dances were well stylelized with turnout knees and pointed toes).

Even in the 6.0 system, it was a battle for higher spirals, and more rotations in jumping. There was little emphasis on footwork, although it was considered important for scoring.

I think CoP and its point scoring methods have brought Figure Skating more into the realm of Acrobatic Dancing than the popular idea that it is ballet-on-ice.

However, there is still Show Skating which features ballet-like performances.

Joe

 

[mvick]

Spins and footwork have nothing to do with PCS marks, they get scored in their own right and are part of the TES mark. PCS is still subjective.

As for L4 spins, it's the same as last year with the addition for the solo spin to have 8 revs in the basic position as a feature. The same people are still getting L4 on the CCoSp, CoSp and flying spins. The nice thing is that they can't do 2 CCoSp's anymore. 8 revs in the basic position as a feature is actually easy to use to get at least a L2 because you can also use that to gain a "clear increase in speed" feature once your 8 revs is complete.

Yes, PCS is subject personally, will always be. One skater's style one person will like and another will not like.

8 revs in the basic is harder than you think. It can easy to get the 8 revs bullet for a level but it can be difficult to complete the other bullets from slowing down doing the 8 revs. Personal expereince

 

[Mathman]

And if you talk about figure skating fading away... I am sure most of people prefer to watch Zhang's amaizing and fast layback spin rather than Kwan's boring sitspin which rotated like one revolution/minute.

That's the very question. For a decade lots of people spent their money to come out and watch Michelle Kwan perform, boring sitspin and all.

Will the CoP generation attract as much of a following, or will the public continue gradually to lose iterest? I guess we will have to wait and see.

 

[mskater93]

8 revs in the basic is harder than you think. It can easy to get the 8 revs bullet for a level but it can be difficult to complete the other bullets from slowing down doing the 8 revs. Personal expereince

I'm talking from personal experience with the 8 revs as well. I have one planned as a L2 in my program (it would be a L3 if I could grab my foot and yank it over my head without screaming in pain). I am able to get 8 revs in my layback and then I consistently get the clear increase in speed. I have tried the haircutter position and some of the other features, but it just makes me scream in pain in my quad.