Are skaters losing room for creativity? | Golden Skate

Are skaters losing room for creativity?

gsk8

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Jun 21, 2003
In today’s scoring system, every point matters.

Skaters place jumps where they earn the most value, structure layouts carefully, and build programs with strategy in mind.

Do you think this pushes programs toward the same pattern? Do scoring rules push skaters into similar layouts, making competitive programs start to look and feel alike?

What are your thoughts and examples?
 
Yes, I think that this is an inevitable outcome of any add-up-the-points system -- athletes will strategize to maximize the point potential.

I do, however, think that the iSU works diligently to keep the overall Program Component Scores relevant -- with uneven success.
 
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Yes. Many of the programs look the same nowadays.

At one point, in one season, the 4th jump for most of the men was a triple loop....Why ? They would put their very hard jumping passes in positions 1-2-3... and then the less valuable triple loop because they could count the middle scoring (often the axel/lutz passes) in the second half for the 10% bonus. Also, the pattern is very clear ... Skate..... jump... Skate some more... jump... Skate some more... Jump ... and finally skate a little bit more.. jump... before there is any attempt at meaningful choreography. Then, a choreo sequence or a spin... or both....to hit the half way point... to resume simple skating-jump X3.... and then the final minute is featuring 75% of the choreographic intent with the steps, some move in the fields and the final spin(s).

So yeah... let's just say that we could interchange music and still get jumps lining up on the musical highlights ;)
Of course, I am just a bit on the exaggeration mode here.

There are a couple skaters only who keep choreography throughout the program and make it more palatable. Adam is the best at that.
 
If those are the examples, and they're good ones, maybe we should be addressing the choreographers instead of the skaters.....just a thought.
Well. it's not always necessarily their fault. Choreos often give good stuff to skaters... and then, as the season goes by, skaters remove and edit things out of the programs because they realize
1) they need more time to prepare the big jumps
2) doing a lot of choreo is tiring and by the end of the program, they have no juice left to do the last 3 jumping passes.

No wonder why skaters keep the steps at the end : they are physically demanding so they do them when the big pointers have been done already.

The skaters, like Adam and Yuma, commit to their choreo so the editing means less dumbing down of the programs.
 
I find this natural effect of IJS scoring particularly distressing in ice dance. Almost all ice dancers these days use a rotational lift in the RD. Most do look alike positions in the rotational lift, which is extremely boring.
However, if you look over time for each couple, judges are more apt to give rotational lifts high GOE, despite that every elite couple can manage to get level4 on a rotational lift.

It is very sad..

One main joy of watching ice dancing used to be the unpredictability of moves outside step sequences. Not so much these days.
 
I often wonder if part of the problem is that the number of choreographers is limited. If you're choreographing many different programs year after year, do you tend to reuse certain flourishes or fall into a tried-and-true pattern? Creative energy, like any other type of energy, is surely not infinite.

I honestly don't know the answer - so take the question honestly... do dance (not ice dance) choreographers typically choreograph as many programs as skating choreographers do? And do they fall into patterns, too?
 
I don't necessarily agree that skaters - on their own - change their programs that much except to make them better.
It's okay if you don't agree but it's been documented many times. Skaters themselves have mentioned it. If ever I find a quote, I will bring it forward.
 
The part I don't agree with is that they do it totally on their own - if you mean without input from coaches and/or the choreographer.
 
Yes and no. Scoring system suggests what to do to get the most points. But limitations can fuel creativity - how to use compulsory elements to tell a story is a fun problem to consider and has many possible answers. It's just the fact that program that is creative and interesting to watch is not the top priority for most skaters. I tend to believe in sport we should go for the most objective, measurable way of testing skills and that naturally leads to, well, schematic programs. But I wouldn't change that for more "freedom", because then we are just judging on vibes. So, yeah, I'm fine with plenty of schematic programs and a few fabulous ones in every competition. Reaching people's minds and hearts is possible within every scoring system, if the intention to do so is there. So overall, I'd say it's not the system, it's the skaters.
Besides, we can tackle this by changing rules regularly - which we do. Let's wait and see what skaters can do with one less jump.
 
The part I don't agree with is that they do it totally on their own - if you mean without input from coaches and/or the choreographer.
Well, I don't think the way I wrote it meant exclusively on their own but if you need a clarification : Skaters edit their programs, with their coaches and sometimes even with another "in house" choreographer. I think it's pretty common that they will not call in the original choreographer to fix a few things, remove a few steps, to feel more comfortable with a jumping pass or to make sure they stick to the music.
It's quite common that skaters are given choreography but when practicing it, they realized that with fatigue,they run out of time at the end of a program and then they cannot follow the music. So they work it out.
 
I do, however, think that the iSU works diligently to keep the overall Program Component Scores relevant
How and in what way do you see the ISU working diligently to keep overall PCS relevant? PCS scoring is too often seemingly manipulated for overall placements. The scores in each PCS category routinely fall within an obvious range rather than judges scoring each category fairly based on performance and skill level.

The answer to the OP question is clearly 'Yes'. We notice the tendency for similar layout patterns and the necessity to create footwork and spins based on point-getting value rather than on the creative needs of the chosen music. Of course, skilled choreographers can do a lot with top skaters to try and overcome the rules restrictions that lead to boring sameness. However, similar layout patterns too often persist. I say free the free programs! We need more creative expression to be allowed, fostered, and championed.
 
How and in what way do you see the ISU working diligently to keep overall PCS relevant?
The temptation is to say, "This is a sport. You get so many points for a triple Lutz. Period. Any wishy-washy fooling around with, 'oh that's pretty' is irrelevant and has no place in an athletic competition.

But no -- the ISU is constantly fiddling with ways to tweak the PCSs in various ways, redefining what exactly the components are, trowing in choreographic step sequences and/or spitral sequences, adding or subtracting jumps, diddling with program length, etc. The fuss and worry over PCS details every year, trying to get it right -- to me, that shows "diligence attention to the problems posed by program components," whether or not the annual new rules are actually any better than the old.
 
the ISU is constantly fiddling with ways to tweak the PCSs in various ways, redefining what exactly the components are, trowing in choreographic step sequences and/or spitral sequences, adding or subtracting jumps, diddling with program length
IMO, just because the ISU 'constantly fiddles with ways to tweak and redefine PCS' does not make it a beneficial thing for figure skating or for the skaters. Making constant changes is fruitless and only further complicates judging. Those ISU officials inadequately managing the sport need to start with understanding how the sport evolved. There's a rich, accessible history that is never fully tapped into, much less fully understood. Go back to the basics, and cease trying to tweak rules hastily thrown together on a faulty foundation.

Figure skating is a very misunderstood sport, in part because few people truly understand its history. In particular, the complication with fs being both art and sport has always been viewed as something negative and delegitimizing rather than what makes it great, unique, and what draws in audiences. Being both art and sport is what gives figure skating its power. Embrace that, reveal that fully, and allow the skaters and coaches to be full participants in charting the sport's future. It needs to be a future that celebrates the sport's history in addition to elevating and promoting all of its athletes.

*** Most importantly, the ISU needs to find more and better ways to provide competitive opportunities for beneficial career growth. This endeavor must include rebuilding a pro tour which in my opinion can only benefit eligible skaters as well as veterans who retire and want to continue competing.***

In ice dance, there is debate as to whether 'choreographic step sequences' are actually necessary to be judged as a separate category when entire programs involve choreography. The number of strict, and often inconsistently judged rules and constant changes that must be followed in ice dance have been a particular point of debate and concern among skaters and fans this past season.
 
The temptation is to say, "This is a sport. You get so many points for a triple Lutz. Period. Any wishy-washy fooling around with, 'oh that's pretty' is irrelevant and has no place in an athletic competition.
I'm not exactly sure of what you are arguing here in relation to the ISU constantly and ineffectively tweaking PCS. As I said in my previous post, figure skating is both art and sport, which needs to be understood, acknowledged, and fully embraced. Yes, a skillfully executed triple lutz has a certain point value. The GOE should be based on how proficiently executed, not on how pretty it looks. Each skater has a different physicality and movement style, but do they have good posture, stretch, good height, proper entry and exit on the jump, the right blade control and positioning? Those are the technical aspects related to sport.

The aesthetic aspects related to performance execution involve choreography, fluidity, expressing the musical nuances and telling a story. The right music, cut effectively matters and makes a huge difference. Then, it is the seamless quality of how a properly executed jump or technical element in pairs and ice dance meld with the music & choreo, and with the athlete's/ duo's musicality and expressiveness in telling a story. IMO, the judging system doesn't truly take the importance of this unity between art and sport into account nor accurately reward how effectively music, choreo, and costume suit and support well-conceived and well-executed performances. This fault in the judging system is perhaps, in part, due to relying on the excuse that art is subjective and judged via individual tastes.

Why not take away the 'subjectivity' excuse and actually place judges on the panel who possess a deep understanding of performance quality (theater, dance, costume, music/ musicality) and movement quality (physicality and body mechanics). Such judges do not need to have a background in figure skating, but should ultimately gain a full understanding of the sport. I think having judges who know the origins and dynamics of performance, music, costume, and movement quality, would be very helpful in reframing and improving figure skating judging.

Honestly, figure skating judging has been faulty and complicated from the sport's beginnings. Again, this is why the history and evolution of the sport should be adequately studied and understood by all decisionmakers before attempting to make viable improvements to the rules. Above all, the ISU, in my not so humble opinion, need to stop making and changing rules based chiefly on the needs of broadcasters, timing concerns, cliquey federation power plays, etc. Yes, the sport/art of figure skating is complicated, but by overlooking the history, by not breaking everything down to basics, by not operating inclusively, and by not fully understanding all aspects of figure skating, the sport's handlers end up making rules and how the sport is run even more messy, complicated, and misunderstood.

I acknowledge that there are some caring members of the ISU who are trying, but too often misguidedly. In any case, it will take a full consensus of sincere, dedicated individuals, community efforts and expertise to advance beneficial change. I don't expect to see true progress in my lifetime. For sure, it will take years, inclusivity, passionate determination, full commitment, and attuned, grounded understanding to truly begin to repair the sport's unique challenges. The alternative is continuing the status quo conflicts of interest, blind leading the blind, refusal to listen to skaters, and the shoulder-shrugging, going along to get along approach, which sadly has at its core figure skating revenue inequitably distributed to figure skating while more fully allocated to and benefiting a completely different sport. 🕳
 
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I'm not exactly sure of what you are arguing here in relation to the ISU constantly and ineffectively tweaking PCS.
My remark was that the ISU does seem aware of the problem and is trying one thing after another to address it. Whether figure skating benefits from these efforts, or whether they are all ineffectual, is another question -- perhaps one that does not have a satisfactory answer. :(
 
They are already taking out jumping passes so why would people still complain? Nothing is enough until there is no jumps at all left or what? Or jumps don't count and we are back to the corrupt 6.0 era when points were handed out willy-nilly? Good grief.
 
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