Article: Michelle Kwan: The Kwaniacs Attack!

[Piel]

Are you kidding me? The one season Irina was basically out Russia lost its third Wolrds spot. No, it's more like "all the other girls just need to get their stuff together, so Irina isn't the one who has to save the team again and again". With the Japanese skaters only recently entering the elite ranks, it's like Irina is the only one who can defend Russia against America.

I thought as much. Kwans placments at Worlds have helped give the U.S.A. three spots many times. Somehow people forget that contribution she has made to U.S. figure skating.

All of the different thoughts on FS fandom are very interesting I think. You have the U.S. team BUT the members compete against each other for individual medals. So they need to hope they don't beat their team mates too much in order to keep three spots for the next season. Maybe there should be some team medals...the team that has racked up the most points overall, most points for jumps, most for spins This could bring the fans of a country together. Then you get the people who don't like the emphasis on the individual country. All of this "we must be nice" I find a little too precious. I mean compeptition is competition it's like you should want your skater to win but not to actually beat another skater. Does that make sense to anyone?

 

[SusanBeth]

What does everyone else think? This shouldn't be just between me and Joe.

I would like constructive criticism (i.e. not petty lowbrow swipes like Joe was taking) about what I've been doing wrong to tick off so many people (so it seems hwell: ). It would really help to cut down on this incessant fighting that's detracting from real discussions about the skating, IMO.

Honestly, I don't understand what the fuss is about regarding your posts. I have seen plenty that I've disagreed with, so what? Even if you did really dislike Kwan's skating, as long as you are civil, so what? (I felt that way toward Witt , but that was pre-internet.) You tend to like to debate rather than discuss, again, so what? Even if you didn't know a Charlotte from a toe loop, so what?

I don't really like to debate, but as long as it is kept civil, I do enjoy reading them. I can learn a great deal that way. I think the only point that should matter is whether you treat other posters with courtesy. I haven't seen you attack anyone or get personal (at least not first.). I have disagreed with you once or twice and felt my POV was treated respectfully. I've seen you behave with rather remarkable restraint in the face of heavy provocation. I applaud you for that. I just don't understand what is going on here.

Maybe it would be best if people just used the ignore feature. This is ugly and senseless.

 

[millie]

I agree.

You've already heard from Joe and me- I would just like to drop that part of the conversation. That issue should be yesterday's news now. The biggest part about resolving an issue is moving on.

QUOTE:" There is no greater mistake than the hasty conclusion that opinions are worthless because they are badly argued".

 

[flowjo35]

Kwans placments at Worlds have helped give the U.S.A. three spots many times. Somehow people forget that contribution she has made to U.S. figure skating.

Amen to that. I wish we can all just enjoy these remarkable young women while we can, whether you have a favorite or not, because this might be the last year for them. Rock on ladies

 

[emma]

I thought as much. Kwans placments at Worlds have helped give the U.S.A. three spots many times. Somehow people forget that contribution she has made to U.S. figure skating.

All of the different thoughts on FS fandom are very interesting I think. You have the U.S. team BUT the members compete against each other for individual medals. So they need to hope they don't beat their team mates too much in order to keep three spots for the next season. Maybe there should be some team medals...the team that has racked up the most points overall, most points for jumps, most for spins This could bring the fans of a country together. Then you get the people who don't like the emphasis on the individual country. All of this "we must be nice" I find a little too precious. I mean compeptition is competition it's like you should want your skater to win but not to actually beat another skater. Does that make sense to anyone?

Back in another lifetime, I used to swim and I loved the individual in a team dimension to the sport...and yes, often your own team mates were your toughest/most targeted opponents (but then there were the relays...ahhhh that was fun)....anyway, the point is we kept overall team points (teams, not individuals, won or lost meets), and we had end of the season awards for different team accomplishments....it was cool. It might not work as well with skating since 'teams' don't win or loose events, but particularly with CoP we could track the kind of things you are thinking of: team achievments to get places at worlds and olympics, overall team highs for jumps, for spins, etc....I like it!

 

[R.D.]

QUOTE:" There is no greater mistake than the hasty conclusion that opinions are worthless because they are badly argued".

I'll send you a PM elaborating on my point...(brace for it, it could be quite long )

Maybe it would be best if people just used the ignore feature. This is ugly and senseless.

It WOULD be best...but only in the short run. What this ultimately does is simply sweep this issue under the rug. That's NOT a good thing. That's NOT what we want. We want to see if we can minimize, if not stop, all these petty arguments to begin with.

 

[millie]

I'll send you a PM elaborating on my point...(brace for it, it could be quite long )



It WOULD be best...but only in the short run. What this ultimately does is simply sweep this issue under the rug. That's NOT a good thing. That's NOT what we want. We want to see if we can minimize, if not stop, all these petty arguments to begin with.

DITTO, Red Dog
"MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU"

 

[Piel]

It might not work as well with skating since 'teams' don't win or loose events, but particularly with CoP we could track the kind of things you are thinking of: team achievments to get places at worlds and olympics, overall team highs for jumps, for spins, etc....I like it!

This could be fun....AND give Mathman a reason to stay out of hibernation if Kwan can't compete. It could be done for The GP series, Olympics and Worlds.

BTW all the trips to the chicken coop were not in vain. My Mountaineers were down 24-7 at the end of the third quarter and came back to win over Louisville 46- 44 in triple overtime. Kwan is down but not out!

 

[SusanBeth]

DITTO, Red Dog
"MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU"

It takes both sides to do that. I have a feeling that the vast majority of posters and readers don't even have a side or see themselves as being on a side. That makes a consensus impossible. The best/most realistic outcome may be in trying to reach individuals.

That means asking others to contribute to the board as individuals by exercising restraint and maturity. Most people do this already. I wish we could get the tiny minority of posters to adopt some basic "rules."

Examples:
It's rude to others to have to read the same argument popping up in thread after thread. Just be considerate and move on already!

This is a general board. People are going to dislike your skater. If you can't deal, find a skater specific fan site and seek consolation among your peers.

A general board doesn't require others to be experts. If vast skating knowledge and experience - not to mention an ability to write interesting posts consistently - were required, this board and many others would be dead.

I feel like I am lecturing to my teenagers, so I will just shut up and move on.

 

[R.D.]

Examples:
It's rude to others to have to read the same argument popping up in thread after thread. Just be considerate and move on already!

This is a general board. People are going to dislike your skater. If you can't deal, find a skater specific fan site and find consolation among your peers.

A general board doesn't require others to be experts. If vast skating knowledge and experience - not to mention an ability to write interesting posts consistently - were required, this board and many others would be dead.

I'm not into telling people how to post, but I think things would be better if the above three were followed.

I'll go over each of them

SAME ARGUMENT

I know I've found myself falling into this trap time and time again when debating topics with certain posters. Eventually it just gets to beating a dead horse. But this should be more specific. WHEN exactly do you move on? After a couple of posts? A couple of pages? A couple of threads?

GENERAL BOARD

I think this is where the biggest misunderstanding is. Some Kwan fans need to realize that not everyone likes Kwan. Some Cohen fans need to realize not everyone likes her. Nonfans should recognize these different entities and respect everyone's opinion, and the fans should return the favor.

SKATING KNOWLEDGE

I agree...maybe that's why it's hard to get (new) people to post.

 

[Piel]

I think this is where the biggest misunderstanding is. Some Kwan fans need to realize that not everyone likes Kwan. Some Cohen fans need to realize not everyone likes her. Nonfans should recognize these different entities and respect everyone's opinion, and the fans should return the favor.

If there is a thread about a skater that doesn't interest me I just don't read it. I would never think that the thread should not exist just because this is a general skating board. There are going to be gush threads and the more popular rhe skater the more gushing there is going to be. Nonfans would probably be ignoring gush threads wouldn't they? I only go to fan sites (even MKF) if someones posts a link there or if they are getting competition results faster than GS. Heck I am not even registered at MKF but am registered at Sashafans. When I venture there I try to get the information I'm looking for and then get out with as much of my Kwaniac dignity intact as possible I have yet to post there on this registration. I was banned after my first post the first time I registered there.....my head is still spinning from that it happened so fast.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Piel, what did you do that was so shameful to be banned from Sashafanatics site so quickly? Did you mention her flutz(big no no with Sasha fans probably), her failure to win a single U.S or World title up until now, the fact she did not even get her first win over MK until the 2004 season, or mention that she has never done a clean long program in a competition of grand prix event stature or higher(excluding cheesefests obviously)? Or did you simply dare to say you liked Michelle more, and you thought she was better.

 

[Piel]

It was after nationals last year and Kwan was being raked over the coals by an infamous former GS poster who shall not be named. I simply asked how someone could dislike someone so much that they didn't even know and added that I thought that was unhealthy. Faster than you can say Adrian Chew my post disappeared and the Sashafans welcome mat was pulled out from under me. I was hurt.

 

[R.D.]

I dunno. I've posted at Sashafans, and have been questioned why I was there if I'm a non-fan, etc. But I've never been warned or banned, and I've been posting basically the same stuff there that I have been posting here. You must have really said something to tick them off.

I avoid the vast majority of gush threads because they don't interest me. But what is harder to get away from is the gushing and the bias in other threads. But that's another point. That's only MY personal beef. That overlooks the more important issue, which is what is being discussed in this thread. As soon as the bigger issue is at least tackled, everything else will fall into place. The smaller stuff will cease to be issues any more.

 

[slutskayafan21]

It was after nationals last year and Kwan was being raked over the coals by an infamous former GS poster who shall not be named. I simply asked how someone could dislike someone so much that they didn't even know and added that I thought that was unhealthy. Faster than you can say Adrian Chew my post disappeared and the Sashafans welcome mat was pulled out from under me. I was hurt.

Awww, they sound mean. :scowl: I would have responded that, keeping it mind it is Sashaville, that it is not fair to dislike Michelle Kwan, because Sasha cant keep her dress off the ice for an entire 4 minutes, and thus has been unable to ever win the U.S title that keeps going to yet another flawless(her non-fans might say boring and repetitive, her uberfans inspired and exquisite, either way usualy with all triple clean and no errors though)performance by Kwan at nationals. Sasha has to deal with that herself, it is not Michelle's fault.

 

[R.D.]

Let's try to stay on topic and not worry about the Sashafans. They are away on their own forum anyway. I don't want this thread to get off topic and out of hand.

 

[slutskayafan21]

On another note, I must thank BigRed for posting that link. As wierd as this may sound, I really do hope some of the non-Kwanatics are really the mean-spirited liers who are fabricating stories in a way; since if they are telling the truth there were some disturbing activities revealed. A young girl ending up in hospital after being attacked by a group of Kwanatics, purposely trying to distract rival skaters by taunting and screaming at them, following around non-Kwanatics until finding them? I have never been to a U.S nationals but if those things do go on, I must say those things are going way over the top, and I would have never imagined things could be that bad. That being said my first inclination is to not believe those things, they sound too extreme to be believable, and I have no reason to trust the credability of those people writing it. I just hope none of it is true.

A sense of entitlement that Kwan fans have for her that Piel has enlightened us on a bit , like her right to garner such and such a victory, frusteration and sometimes bitterness to skaters who deprive her of any of the big prizes, a continous awe to everything she brings to the ice whether others bemoan her so-called stagnation of certain areas of her skating or not, the feeling of entitlement of her territotry as queen of the sport and possessor of all the important titles and roles of the sport, a complete inability to understand anybody wanting to see anything but Kwan continuing to win every big title until she sets every record or retires, etc......is one thing of course. Some of the things on the blog though, which like I said I am believing and hoping were downright mean-spirited lies, were something else though, quite disturbing.

 

[Piel]

RD I swear that is all I said. I assume that one's first post on a fan forum should probably be a gush (preferably about the skater the forum is dedicated to, ya think?).

 

[R.D.]

- I'm not sure which stories to believe and which ones to discount. But somehow I get the feeling that some people just trying to make the Kwaniacs look bad made some of that stuff up. :scratch:

- People are really getting down on the Sashafans here and singling them out for uberfanism. Every skater has its uber fans; Kwan just happens to have the biggest group, and therefore the most influential of all the groups.

 

[R.D.]

I assume that one's first post on a fan forum should probably be a gush (preferably about the skater the forum is dedicated to, ya think?).

Perhaps, if you wish to be part of the "in" crowd. But otherwise it shouldn't matter. It's more like don't diss the skater (or be overly critical of her) on your first post (because it'll seem you have an agenda).

I would expect a Kwan fan forum to be not so welcoming of people who don't see Kwan so favorably. But NOT a general skating forum like GS!