Artistic Pet Peeves

[ceg15]

Have you ever watched Jeff skate? His mouth is ALWAYS open. David WIlson sucks, everything he does looks so similar.

I've probably watched Jeff skate more than anybody on this forum and I've never noticed that. Would you like him to close his mouth really tight and look mad instead? David Wilson does NOT suck. I don't know where you're getting this. For every skaters' program he does, he gets to know the skater so he can make a program that suits their needs, highlights their strengths and hides their weaknesses. And he obviously has been doing a fine job of it judging by the results of the skaters whose programs he was choreographed.

 

[Ladskater]

Quite a list here, but actually in answer to the pet peeve about the credit for the rotation for the quad:

Even under the old 6.0 system skaters got marks for attempting a jump - even if they landed splat on their bottom or face as you express here. It takes skaters a long time to master certain jumps and not all skaters have technically perfected their jumps required in time for competitions therefore they do get credit for trying the jump. The artistic skaters such as Jeff are usually stronger in their spins and footwork and moves in the field. The Plushenkos of skating don't get as high marks in artistic expression. Their strength is the big jumps. In the old days of school figures, whoever won the figures component usually won the competition -even if they lacked in artistic expression and technical skills as far as jumping. Today with the new judging system the skaters get credit for all components of their program.

I think a lot of people here at golden skate who have never skated or are new to watching figure skating don't understand how judging figure skating works or what the skaters have to go through when they are competing. It's easy for us "arm chair experts" to make crass judgments from the comfort zone of our living rooms. Try looking at things from the point of view of the skaters.

 

[hockeyfan228]

What other sport rewards people for almost there but not quite?!

Diving. Greg Louganis might have gotten 1's on the dive where he hit his head on the board, but he did not get zero points. The same goes for divers who wipe out, as long as they don't land feet first.

Ski jumping, where the jumper gets very low style points for falling on his butt after landing on his skis, but does get the distance value.

I'm not sure about gymnastics. I know there are deductions for falling off the beam and highbar or falling on the mat, but I don't know if the element is included to determine difficulty over base.

 

[anniemg]

I just hate it when people just skate around as if they are not in a competition(no expression not anything) but when they are in front of the judges, they put on the epxressive face etc.

 

[K-Mo]

I, too, get annoyed with mulitple music choices, or jarring cuts in the music. It's time to dazzle the crowd with jumps! Make it fast! Now I am full of expression--throw in a slow section. Now throw in another faster section so I can wow them again at the end!

The most heinous example of this is Tonya Harding's Batman/Send in the Clowns/Ton Loc attrocity.

 

[IcyBallerina]

I agree with the poster who said that speed should be both varied and controlled. I love a fast skater with slow music, though. If you can time your slow strokes and crossovers with the music, it demonstrates excellent power. However, smooth lyrical music is not a good combination with choppy, racing strokes!

 

[kyla2]

Ita

Oh my God, I am agreeing with DancinDiva. ITA about David Wilson's choreography completely lackluster. Jeffrey Buttle is definitely a cut above many male skaters in the artistry area, but overall I am underwhelmed.

ITA about varying the speed when apppropriate. ITA about poor music cuts. ITA about getting points for jumps that aren't landed. They shouldn't get credit for the jump, period. Please don't tell me how I should be in their shoes and I would think otherwise. The point is, I am the one watching it, and skating on your backside breaks up the flow of the program and is a plain ugly in every possible way.
ITA with Johnny Coop about just about everything.

 

[JonnyCoop]

Thanks, kyla2!!

Diving. Greg Louganis might have gotten 1's on the dive where he hit his head on the board, but he did not get zero points. The same goes for divers who wipe out, as long as they don't land feet first.

OK -- I will concede that point. Still, I don't think it's a good idea to encourage skaters who only land their quad about 30% of the time in practice to attempt it in competition, which this concept under the new system rather does, depending on the skater. Midori Ito did break her leg in late 1984 trying to master the triple axel -- do we want to see someone do this during a competition with an arenaful of spectators?

Regarding speed usage: I was reviewing my tape of the Free Dance in Torino this morning, and I was noticing the huge amount of flack that Groosh & Gonch got for being slow. Yeah, they were slow. Did it bug me? No. As far as I'm concerned, they were going the same pace as their music. And when the music speeded up, they did too.

Yes, if an elaborate step sequence or the like is done at incredible speed and I have to rewind and slo-mo the replay back a couple of times to figure out exactly what it is they did, that definitely shows SKILL. However, some of the less sharp-eyed judges (and we know there are some out there) may have missed the fact that they did the sequence entirely (possibly distracted by a sleazy costume ). Yes, there is replay now, but if you missed it entirely, you may not know to use it for that part.

 

[Wolfgang]

Mathman & SusanBeth - Make that just about everyone at the rink.....
We do not dislike Mr. Button because he is old, in fact, there are several ladies and gents who are active skaters here older than Mr. Button....
We simply find ourselves disagreeing with the vast majority of his 'opinions', decreed from his ivory throne somewhere in the cloudy reaches of US skating Nirvana.....
He often seems (just a tad...) out of touch with reality, we cannot help but wonder when the last time was he actually wore skates.

He has (or had?), by the way, an Austrian equivalent, whose name escapes me -it's been many years - it may have been 'Erich Zimmermann', but I might be confusing this with someone else, anyway, there is (or was) an Austrian Dick Button, just as sanctimonious, judgemental, out of touch, outdated and proud of himself, but....in limitless supply of silk scarves.......

His opposite number in the booth (whom I do remember, thanks to her lovely doe eyes...) was Ingrid Wendl, the Austrian Peggy Fleming, if you will, I believe she won some kind of silver or bronze in Norway in the 60's.
Even though Ms. Wendl was of a rather shy and quiet disposition (for a TV commentator, at any rate), you could tell that she was very much 'with it', probably still laces up skates quite frequently, and so wasn't out of touch or very far removed from the sport at all, knows exactly what it takes to land that jump, do that spin, and so on.
Making her commentary much more real, 'now', actually skating related, and much less judgemental.

 

[JonnyCoop]

Personally, I don't think the sport would be the same without "Uncle Dick"'s commentary (tho they should have kept him off the dance commentary in Torino, because, despite his accomplishments and knowledge, I don't think he knew he was talking about THERE more than half the time), but I do think he does seem to be getting more -- crotchety?? something.... -- as he gets older, but that's pretty natural for most people, isn't it? In the past, he was frequently overly snide (and some may feel he still is), but over the last couple of years, he has said a few things that fall under the "What the **** are you talking about??" category.

Regarding Ms. Wendl: She had a very impressive competitive record, actually. She was European champion in 1956 and 1958; Oly bronze medallist in 1956; and a 3-time Worlds medallist (bronze in 56 and 57, silver in 58).

 

[Linny]

Pale in comparison

Methinks you have focused your pet peeves on a way less important area than my personal pet peeve...

Expression, over the top, mouth open, closed, whatever - it's expression.
Rotations attempted are better than rotations not attempted, or plenty of rotations without any choreography.

The Olympic gold was just won by a master of rotation in the air who performed two empty programs.

Guess that's my pet peeve. Programs with jumps and otherwise nothing.

Linny

 

[SusanBeth]

Mathman & SusanBeth - Make that just about everyone at the rink.....
We do not dislike Mr. Button because he is old, in fact, there are several ladies and gents who are active skaters here older than Mr. Button....
We simply find ourselves disagreeing with the vast majority of his 'opinions', decreed from his ivory throne somewhere in the cloudy reaches of US skating Nirvana.....
He often seems (just a tad...) out of touch with reality, we cannot help but wonder when the last time was he actually wore skates.

He has (or had?), by the way, an Austrian equivalent, whose name escapes me -it's been many years - it may have been 'Erich Zimmermann', but I might be confusing this with someone else, anyway, there is (or was) an Austrian Dick Button, just as sanctimonious, judgemental, out of touch, outdated and proud of himself, but....in limitless supply of silk scarves.......

His opposite number in the booth (whom I do remember, thanks to her lovely doe eyes...) was Ingrid Wendl, the Austrian Peggy Fleming, if you will, I believe she won some kind of silver or bronze in Norway in the 60's.
Even though Ms. Wendl was of a rather shy and quiet disposition (for a TV commentator, at any rate), you could tell that she was very much 'with it', probably still laces up skates quite frequently, and so wasn't out of touch or very far removed from the sport at all, knows exactly what it takes to land that jump, do that spin, and so on.
Making her commentary much more real, 'now', actually skating related, and much less judgemental.

The last time he had skates on definitely wasn't when he won his first OGM, his second OGM, or his 5 World titles. It wasn't when he first started commentating for tv in 1962 and really worked at introducing Americans to our beautiful sport. It wasn't when he was setting up some of the first Pro competitions either. The man blazed the trail for American figure skaters and he has supported and promoted the sport for over 60 years.

The bottom line is that all the people at your rink (and about 20 other rinks) put together couldn't come close to making the contribution that Button has made, not even if given 60 years to do it. We have all benefited from Dick Button's work. I think it only decent to give credit where it is due and give respect where it has been earned. If Dick Button hasn't earned respect (not agreement) for his opinions, then the rest of us are surely in trouble.

 

[Tinika]

Methinks you have focused your pet peeves on a way less important area than my personal pet peeve...

Expression, over the top, mouth open, closed, whatever - it's expression.
Rotations attempted are better than rotations not attempted, or plenty of rotations without any choreography.

The Olympic gold was just won by a master of rotation in the air who performed two empty programs.

Guess that's my pet peeve. Programs with jumps and otherwise nothing.

Linny

I agree completely! Plushenko is like a robot out there. I'm not a fan.

 

[lotusland]

ceg15 Quote:
Originally Posted by dancindiva03
Have you ever watched Jeff skate? His mouth is ALWAYS open.

I've probably watched Jeff skate more than anybody on this forum and I've never noticed that. Would you like him to close his mouth really tight and look mad instead?

Before anyone, partcularily ceg15, pounces on me, I am not bashing Jeff, but he does skate (quite unconciously) with his mouth hanging open. I've known him for years, going way, way back to when he competed ice dance with his sister ... skating with his mouth open was a habit for him then, and it continues to be a habit for him now. Here are quick couple of photos to refresh your mind

http://www3.sympatico.ca/john.angel/jb04button.jpg
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/buttle_jeffrey1028.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/j_buttle/nats05ex.jpg
http://www.cp.org/english/online/full/skating/050320/l032002.jpg
http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/images/four_continents/4C2004 Buttle FS.JPG
http://www.skatecanada.ca/en/events_results/events/cdns06/athletes/images/buttle.jpg
http://www.patinagecanada.ca/en/images/content/news/05gpfinal_1.jpg
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/kuro/satokon/02nhk/m05-s.JPG
http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper285/stills/8a82jbo6.jpg
http://www.mtscentre.ca/images/stars.jpg

 

[SusanBeth]

Could it be due to a sinus problem? Some people do have to breathe through their mouths. It's a tough habit to break even after surgery.

 

[lotusland]

Nope, just a personal habit of Jeff's. Lots of skaters skate with clenched fists. Others hunch their shoulders up. Or, as so many have mentioned, Mira Leung lets her arms dangle forward and raises her face to the arena ceiling when she takes off into most of her jumps. They all have "their own thing." Some habits are just a little more obvious/annoying than others, I guess. :yes:

 

[76olympics]

I think Jeff DOES skate with his mouth open (and you have the photographic evidence to prove it! ) --but it doesn't bother me. As lotus said, it's just something I expect with Jeff. I like his style and I think he does have his own unique one apart from the choreography. But-one's girl's shrug is another person's pet peeve.

 

[ceg15]

Before anyone, partcularily ceg15, pounces on me, I am not bashing Jeff, but he does skate (quite unconciously) with his mouth hanging open. I've known him for years, going way, way back to when he competed ice dance with his sister ... skating with his mouth open was a habit for him then, and it continues to be a habit for him now. Here are quick couple of photos to refresh your mind

http://www3.sympatico.ca/john.angel/jb04button.jpg
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/buttle_jeffrey1028.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/j_buttle/nats05ex.jpg
http://www.cp.org/english/online/full/skating/050320/l032002.jpg
http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/images/four_continents/4C2004 Buttle FS.JPG
http://www.skatecanada.ca/en/events_results/events/cdns06/athletes/images/buttle.jpg
http://www.patinagecanada.ca/en/images/content/news/05gpfinal_1.jpg
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/kuro/satokon/02nhk/m05-s.JPG
http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper285/stills/8a82jbo6.jpg
http://www.mtscentre.ca/images/stars.jpg

I guess you're right, he does. But every skater does to some extent, I mean I've never seen a skater skate with his lips pursed together...But Jeff's open mouth doesn't really stand out to me at all, I like it though, it's part of him, part of his artistry/presentation.

 

[Wolfgang]

Sorry, but having been right 40 years ago doesn't automatically make Mr. Button right today.
Put him in the Hall of Fame?
Certainly.
Listen to him in 2006?
I'd rather not, thank you.....

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Wolfgang - Your opinions of Dick's opinions may well have more validity if you were to give some examples of some of Dick's opinions that you do not agree with.

I'm hoping you are not complaining about what we call Dickisms.

Joe