Artistry and learning from examples of greatness

[PyeongChang2018]

Let's avoid speculating about what everybody might believe and stick to sharing what we each believe, and maybe noting points of agreement if we get enough input to make the comparisons.

We can post examples of programs that we find most beautiful, or most artistic, or most emotionally moving, or most deserving of top PCS. Those are not necessarily all the same thing.

I do think it's useful for someone to post a performance they especially admire and point out all the things that admire about it. Then others may join in with other favorite details. And someone else might nitpick the things they don't like about that performance and that detract from its effect, for them.

And we each bring our own beliefs and preferences and predispositions to the experience of watching skating. We're not all going to agree on "That was OK" or "That was nice" vs. "That was really special." And that's OK.

When a lot of people agree that a given performance was special, that tells us something positive about the quality of the performance. But the agreement is never going to be unanimous.

With all due respect, I think you're purposely looking for the worst right now.

The point of this thread is discussion. My saying that everyone might find Kim's performance beautiful is said in the hopes that more users will weigh in with their opinions! Which is what you're also suggesting, right? I don't think I've been harmful at all.

And never say never! Who knows? We really might find that we are unanimous on some things! Doesn't that excite or fascinate you? That human beings of all different walks of life, cultures, occupations, perspectives, et cetera could share the same opinion? This is cool to me! I'm an artist so this talk is exciting.

Again, I think you're seeking problems/holes in what I've said in this thread.

 

[elbkup]

I am going out on a limb here to lament greatness that might have been (though I still.have hope)...
I very much admired 16-year old Polina Edmunds' FS at 4 CC, 2015, though the criticism regarding her packaging was over the top bordering on nasty... examples: the music was way too juvenile for her (James Newton Howard's Peter Pan), her dress was shades of ombre pink .. yuck... (Polina's favorite color at the time).. she was too "princessy"...the negativity just went on nonstop... Yet, I loved every aspect of this program and her performance.. her musiclaity and years of ballet training were on full display and gorgeous (to me). Her Step Sequence at the beginning was lovely, twizzle sequence at 2:10 was delightful. My favorite part was the music change at 2:18 where she does a camel into a sit spin into another twizzle, a spiral, Ina Bauer, Biellman finishing with a beautiful ending pose...all this on top of several exquisite jumps throughout. She won the Gold Metal... watching it again, I am vaguely reminded of Aliona Kostnernaia (don't jump on me please!!)... I must say also I was not enamored of her Gone With the Wind FS the following year. But I am left to wonder what might have been if she had continued.. Lindsay Thorngren who won US Junior Nationals reminds me of Polina a bit though she is more athletic than balletic. . Well, I have said it and am sticking to it..
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6lK4DgvRNyQ

EDT. Just wanted to add Polina and Charlie.White had a "twizzle off" .... guess who won..!!
https://www.instagram.com/p/mbIj_MEjZ4/

 

[gkelly]

Here are a number of 6.0 era performances that are widely considered examples of great artistic skating.

I've intentionally chosen a selection of different styles, but I've kept the list short so maybe your favorite skaters or your favorite styles are not represented.

What do we think of these?

If we accept that there are different ways of being artistic on skates, do you think all of these qualify or would you leave any of them off a longer list?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odytP_-zC5E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1imuQWeIi4Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP9EoSIEBgg&t=15s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPYI8l8Fgk8&t=2m21s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgYzaXX8ft0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqWJ7l2iZcU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcCj0xfO3H8&t=1m10s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOUO-pTYuxI

 

[skylark]

I think we have more of everything now, both artistry and tech
And personally i see no reason to discuss artistry since it is extremely subjective

You could equally say there's no reason to discuss the technical score since it's purely objective. After all, what is there to discuss if it's cut and dried and everyone agrees?

Except ... I think there's nothing clearer on the planet than the fact that the technical score also has an element of subjectivity. This is proven by the arguments about it. It's nothing new in sport. Baseball fans can argue for years about an umpire's call on a strike or a foul or a "safe" ruling.

But in my opinion, artistry is much more interesting to have a conversation about. Not an argument, mind you, but a conversation.

 

[Elucidus]

Is there a thread on this forum for people who wish to discuss artistry in figure skating and, as they perceive it, the current decline of the sport? I personally feel like the sport has moved in a really uninspired direction and that some of the top figure skaters right now are offering very little.

I completely disagree and I am adamantly opposing this point of view. I believe the root for such myth takes place mostly from veteran fans who became jaded over the years and lost ability to accept something new as something better while remembering emotions from their youth and imprinting them on those old performances which induced such emotions then. It's widely known syndrome of human psyche which distorts objective perception of reality. It affects all spheres of our life btw - not only fs. On other hand new fans of figure skating watching old iconic performances after being used to modern ones - often feel disappointment or confusion.
Returning to topic starter's point - no, I disagree. There are LOT of new artistic skaters - the whole generation of them, to be exact. In fact there are so many of them now it's hard to remember time period when such overabundance could take place. I really recommend to watch recent RusJrNat ladies competition - both SP and FP. Almost all 18 junior skaters there were brilliant artistically. Some of them jumped quads - but performance level remained the same - full of sophistication and grace.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdX78_qSqDc
This for me an artistry. Most of current senior ladies can only dream about level of skating of that 13y.o. girl. And believe me - it wasn't the only artistic performance there. Petrosian, Frolova, Akatieva, Berestovskaya - lots of them. While there are so many highly artistic performances there - I see nothing wrong with the direction the sport is going now. If anything - I feel golden era of artistry in ladies skating begins exactly now

 

[Mathman]

Wow! Okay, I think this thread is really bringing up some interesting ideas and whatnot.

:yes: But I think the main thing it brings up, is that when it comes to analyzing just what it is that strikes an "artistic" or emotional chord, it is a matter of "different strokes for different folks."

Considering the three example that you gave, here is my personal reaction to these particular programs.

1. Yuna Kim's Send in the Clowns is indeed very beautiful and heartwarming. Part of that has to do with the poignant choice of music. You could close your eyes and just listen to the music, and still be moved by the "artistry" of thre experience. (To me, the performance would have been even more beautiful if her dress has been blue instead of the hard-to-pull off grenish-yellow. OK, I'm shallow. )

In my estimate, Kim's most beautiful and moving performance of all time was Les Mis at 2013 Worlds. If I had to pick one, that is the program that I would say everyone ought to open up his or her heart to. I have to mention, though, that for me, part of the emotion I felt was because of the backstory -- Kim returning in triumph after a break from the sport.

2. For me, when I see Shizuka Arakawa's Ina Bauer I do not personally imagine that she is seeing visions of delight on the ceiling. Rather I think about the technique and the physical anomaly that makes the move possible. (A team of medical scientists once did did an extensive investigation of Arakawa's spinal alignment to determine how her lower verterbae were hooked together to make that possible.) I think I appreciate the move more on the tech side than the artistic. Frankly, I am amazed at how any skater can turn her feet out like that, never mind the layback aspect of this edge move.

Another move that is practically unique to Arakawa is that no hands spiral with her leg straight up in the air unassisted, as she did in the 2006 Olympics LP. That alone was enough for me to say, give her the gold medal!

3. But I am sorry to say that I did not care for Katarina Witt's Carmen at all. (Just my personal reaction and opinion -- if others did like it, well, so did the judges.) To me the program was just a lot of ineffective posing and mugging and not much skating. Liz Manley's LP, on the other hand -- well, I can't say that it was "artistic," but it sure was entertaining.

So -- different strokes for different folks.

 

[Mathman]

EDT. Just wanted to add Polina and Charlie.White had a "twizzle off" .... guess who won..!!
https://www.instagram.com/p/mbIj_MEjZ4/

:

 

[Mathman]

What do we think of these?

I think that pairs is the discipline that suffers most in comparison to the past. We could certainly add some the best of Belousova and Protopopov or Gordeeva and Grinkov to the short list. (Although there are still occasional brilliant gems (like Sui and Han's last year's LP).

I think (at least I hope) that every skating fan has his/her own secret favorite that is not always mentioned among the towering masterpieces. Here's mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UruB5GOsB5s&t=2s&pbjreload=10

 

[TontoK]

One of the things I've found as I follow the sport year after year is that my view of what is artistic changes.

I used to think "art" consisted only of "important" work that conveyed a meaningful message dripping with angst, or were classically balletic, or performed to high-brow music.

And sometimes, I still do. And sometimes, I think those programs are pretentious.

Conversely, I now find a lot of artistic merit in something like the Disco Brits free dance last season because it was fresh and new and unexpected. And FUN!

Art doesn't have to be dreary or ponderous.

 

[Mathman]

Art doesn't have to be dreary or ponderous.

And moreover, sport can be its own art form. To me, you don't always need to portray a character or mimic ballet poses. What's wrong with portraying, "This is me, skating." "This is me, hitting a home run." "This is me, scoring 50 points in a basketbsll game."

One of my all-time faves. "Us, grabbing the silver at U.S. Nationals and GOING TO THE OLYMPICS!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnkV-2-E8no&t=4m27s

 

[anonymoose_au]

Artistry is indeed highly subjective, I often really enjoy skaters who others think are over-the-top or junior-ish.

Of course, my go-to for artistry is Plushy's Tribute to Njinsky at 2004 Russian Nats. Put this in a frame and stick it in the Louvre!

https://youtu.be/SEJXkfMYTX4

 

[Seven Sisters]

Anonymoose has a good point: what each of us considers to be the ultimate in artistry is whatever caused us to fall in love with figure skating to begin with. So for me: Torvill and Dean’s Bolero. Still utterly unforgettable, 35 years later!

 

[Silvia451]

Annd moreover, sport can be its own art form. To me, you don't always need to portray a character or mimic ballet poses. What's wrong with portraying, "This is me, skating." "This is me, hitting a home run." "This is me, scoring 50 points in a basketbsll game."

"This is me, rocking some hip-hop music dressed like a black swan""

 

[lappo]

"This is me, rocking some hip-hop music dressed like a black swan""

A program that stands the test of time, IMO. Just iconic! :thumbsup:

 

[PyeongChang2018]

I completely disagree and I am adamantly opposing this point of view. I believe the root for such myth takes place mostly from veteran fans who became jaded over the years and lost ability to accept something new as something better while remembering emotions from their youth and imprinting them on those old performances which induced such emotions then. It's widely known syndrome of human psyche which distorts objective perception of reality. It affects all spheres of our life btw - not only fs. On other hand new fans of figure skating watching old iconic performances after being used to modern ones - often feel disappointment or confusion.
Returning to topic starter's point - no, I disagree. There are LOT of new artistic skaters - the whole generation of them, to be exact. In fact there are so many of them now it's hard to remember time period when such overabundance could take place. I really recommend to watch recent RusJrNat ladies competition - both SP and FP. Almost all 18 junior skaters there were brilliant artistically. Some of them jumped quads - but performance level remained the same - full of sophistication and grace.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdX78_qSqDc
This for me an artistry. Most of current senior ladies can only dream about level of skating of that 13y.o. girl. And believe me - it wasn't the only artistic performance there. Petrosian, Frolova, Akatieva, Berestovskaya - lots of them. While there are so many highly artistic performances there - I see nothing wrong with the direction the sport is going now. If anything - I feel golden era of artistry in ladies skating begins exactly now

Well, I'm only 22. But I suppose I've been watching--and watching old comps--for a long time.

Hmm. I think the girl you posted is really pretty, but the performance doesn't tell a story. I don't know why she's skating. There's apathy in it, and I think an Artist has a strong need. I'm sure she loves skating with all her heart! But that love is not manifesting on the ice into any story. But that comes with age!

 

[PyeongChang2018]

:yes: But I think the main thing it brings up, is that when it comes to analyzing just what it is that strikes an "artistic" or emotional chord, it is a matter of "different strokes for different folks."

Considering the three example that you gave, here is my personal reaction to these particular programs.

1. Yuna Kim's Send in the Clowns is indeed very beautiful and heartwarming. Part of that has to do with the poignant choice of music. You could close your eyes and just listen to the music, and still be moved by the "artistry" of thre experience. (To me, the performance would have been even more beautiful if her dress has been blue instead of the hard-to-pull off grenish-yellow. OK, I'm shallow. )

In my estimate, Kim's most beautiful and moving performance of all time was Les Mis at 2013 Worlds. If I had to pick one, that is the program that I would say everyone ought to open up his or her heart to. I have to mention, though, that for me, part of the emotion I felt was because of the backstory -- Kim returning in triumph after a break from the sport.

2. For me, when I see Shizuka Arakawa's Ina Bauer I do not personally imagine that she is seeing visions of delight on the ceiling. Rather I think about the technique and the physical anomaly that makes the move possible. (A team of medical scientists once did did an extensive investigation of Arakawa's spinal alignment to determine how her lower verterbae were hooked together to make that possible.) I think I appreciate the move more on the tech side than the artistic. Frankly, I am amazed at how any skater can turn her feet out like that, never mind the layback aspect of this edge move.

Another move that is practically unique to Arakawa is that no hands spiral with her leg straight up in the air unassisted, as she did in the 2006 Olympics LP. That alone was enough for me to say, give her the gold medal!

3. But I am sorry to say that I did not care for Katarina Witt's Carmen at all. (Just my personal reaction and opinion -- if others did like it, well, so did the judges.) To me the program was just a lot of ineffective posing and mugging and not much skating. Liz Manley's LP, on the other hand -- well, I can't say that it was "artistic," but it sure was entertaining.

So -- different strokes for different folks.

To elaborate on the Ina Bauer thing... the imaging (this is an actual term used in the ballet world, and also the acting world but it's often not named) is a technique! It is proven to help assist a ballerina achieve an anatomical move with more precision. It improves the actual anatomical movement by pairing it with an image that is doable/exciting/et cetera. And so, knowing Arakawa probably spent many hours at the ballet barre, I have no doubt she is using imaging, really. So I too am appreciating the move on the technical side!

And yes, her unassisted spiral truly confuses me!!! Idk how she achieves it; such dynamic flexibility.

 

[Mathman]

My favorite Shizuka Arakawa quote: "Actually, my mind going blank was a good thing. When I came to, I was halfway through my program."

 

[TontoK]

One of the things I've found as I follow the sport year after year is that my view of what is artistic changes.

I used to think "art" consisted only of "important" work that conveyed a meaningful message dripping with angst, or were classically balletic, or performed to high-brow music.

And sometimes, I still do. And sometimes, I think those programs are pretentious.

Conversely, I now find a lot of artistic merit in something like the Disco Brits free dance last season because it was fresh and new and unexpected. And FUN!

Art doesn't have to be dreary or ponderous.

I've been giving my first contribution to this thread a lot of thought.

I'm not sure I really expressed what I wanted to. So, second bite at the apple:

I think "art" happens when the skater(s) make us feel the way they intended. We can feel sad, nostalgic and sentimental, joyous, free, young, uplifted, spiritual, or ready to get our groove on... and if this is what we were intended to feel, then the skater did a good job artistically.

On another thread, a contributor mentioned that a certain skater's performance always seem fake, and because of it, the contributor could never buy into the program. I won't drag names to this thread... I happen to agree with the sentiment... because it might cause an unnecessary derailment.

But I think that's an excellent explanation of "lacking artistry."

It's not even what the skater INTENDS us to feel, it's what we ACTUALLY feel that matters.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Carolina Kostner 2017 Euros SP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8b96C8rAmQ
Carolina Kostner 2011 Worlds FS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMIoHusJm7I
Yuna Kim - Short Program - Ladies' Figure Skating | Vancouver 2010
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecKnyyuMsmw
Yuna Kim 2007 World Championships SP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-850kqJoE
Yuna 2009.World Championships.Short.Program
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZAvsv93ZFM
2009 World Championship Yu-Na Kim FS Scheherazade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUPli-YWzWw
Yuna Kim - Free Skate - Ladies' Figure Skating | Vancouver 2010
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoMkWIA2jVY
Yuzuru Hanyu Breaks Olympic Record - Full Short Program
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk6qrBrqAqo
Alena Kostornaia (RUS) | Ladies Short Program | Vancouver 2018
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAcgxEoM4pU

 

[Mathman]

It's not even what the skater INTENDS us to feel, it's what we ACTUALLY feel that matters.

This is such an interesting perspective. In literary criticism, there is never-ending discussion of the "intentional fallacy" -- we don't give a rat's patootie about what the author intended to to accomplish or thought he was accomplishing (but didn't).

A million people find the Mona Lisa intriguing. But I don't. What marks should I give to the painting, and why? Must Leonardo da Vinci hope that I am not on the art show jury that day, or is there some reasonably objective sense in which I can say that this is a great work of art even though I personally am unmoved?

When I was watching the ABC TV coverage just now, I was completely swept away by the first ten seconds of Jason Brown's program. Something about the maturity of movement and command of his medium, from the instant he leaves his opening pose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNC-IL2I88g7&t=0m24s

No doubt other viewers were thinking, "Yeah, yeah, whatever, get on with your quad attempt and stop wasting my time."

Yet the judges have to give their marks. What should these be based on?