Artistry VS, Technical

[Bennett]

Actually, IMO this is not so bad. Skating is a judged sport. The skater wins whose performance the majority of the judges liked best.

To me, the Program Component Scores are nothing more or less than the old Second Mark. The judges decide who they thought skated the best and give that person 6.75s across the board. Then they decide who they thought was second best and give that skater 6.50.

That's perhaps true. But IMO, that's a bad thing . Why Joubert who blames an artistic skater without a quad winning a game is capable of winning PCSs? Why should Jeff who's worked so hard on enhancing skills and ability in each criterion of PCSs never be fairly rewarded for all his hard work?

 

[Mathman]

I think it is really, really hard for a judge to decide, for instance, that a skater worked hard to improve her choreography, but her musical intepretation is still not up to snuff. Or to say that she deserves a boost in interpretation, but did not project to the audience very well, and so deserves a lower score in performance/execution.

Certainly it is the responsibility of the judges to award improvement on the "artistic" side. But I find it easy to forgive a judge who just says, yes, that was an outstanding performance, much improved from last year -- I'll give that a 7.25.

 

[Bennett]

I think it is really, really hard for a judge to decide, for instance, that a skater worked hard to improve her choreography, but her musical intepretation is still not up to snuff. Or to say that she deserves a boost in interpretation, but did not project to the audience very well, and so deserves a lower score in performance/execution.

Certainly it is the responsibility of the judges to award improvement on the "artistic" side. But I find it easy to forgive a judge who just says, yes, that was an outstanding performance, much improved from last year -- I'll give that a 7.25.

Okay, let me reframe:yes:. They don't need to decide how hard the skater worked because what is evaluated is what is skated on the ice regardless of the efforts. I also don't think that judges need to compare the skater from the last year. But no, I don't really think that it should be difficult for judges to evaluate PCSs if they are professionally trained and use these clearly defined criteria. If not, then they could get another panel, PCS specialists.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think I would do away with the PCS scores and just add on bonus questions to the total score to make it clearer, such as:

1. Is the skater musical?
2. Is the program front loaded?
3. Are the basics involved in the program?

And maybe you could add some questions for bonus awards that do not involve the technical GoEs.

Joe

 

[2bcharlotte]

Should there be a separation of the two? Like into diff parts of competition. There could be 1 program for just artistic expression and 1 for technical, then 1 that combines both. I would love to see something of that nature. That way both could be enjoyed & jumps wouldn't be the key concentration. & we would have a well rounded competition.

What do you think? Any ideas to add?

I love your idea. :agree: But will we ever see that....I don't know. Some competions I attend do have a jump event, spin event, so that is great for low end skaters, but I would like to see the big guys give it a go.

 

[NatachaHatawa]

I think it is really, really hard for a judge to decide, for instance, that a skater worked hard to improve her choreography, but her musical intepretation is still not up to snuff. Or to say that she deserves a boost in interpretation, but did not project to the audience very well, and so deserves a lower score in performance/execution.

Certainly it is the responsibility of the judges to award improvement on the "artistic" side. But I find it easy to forgive a judge who just says, yes, that was an outstanding performance, much improved from last year -- I'll give that a 7.25.

I personaly don't think it's very hard just a little ridiculous. The things that the components take into account are what makes artistry, but they don't take into account the general effect and which component in a competition beats the other:

Also, a skater can have a program with few transitions, a simple chorography but give complete goosebumps by the interpretation, but will get a lesser grade than someone with transitions etc but that doesn't have that "wow" effect.

The CoP way of grading artistry reminds of that scene in "Dead poets Society" at the beginning, when in the text book there is a mathematical formula to evaluate peotry.

 

[Bennett]

I personaly don't think it's very hard just a little ridiculous. The things that the components take into account are what makes artistry, but they don't take into account the general effect and which component in a competition beats the other:

Also, a skater can have a program with few transitions, a simple chorography but give complete goosebumps by the interpretation, but will get a lesser grade than someone with transitions etc but that doesn't have that "wow" effect.

The CoP way of grading artistry reminds of that scene in "Dead poets Society" at the beginning, when in the text book there is a mathematical formula to evaluate peotry.

Good points! I think that having five compoments gives a nice balance. But it may not be still enough from the perspective that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

I wonder how other forms of performing arts structure the evaluation system in competitions. In some of the piano competitions that I attended as a child, I remember that they had compoments on which the pianists were judged and then gave you a score on the overall impression.

 

[Mathman]

In some of the piano competitions that I attended as a child, I remember that they had compoments on which the pianists were judged and then gave you a score on the overall impression.

And here's another innovation that figure skating could try. In some of the most prestigious piano competitions, the judges have the option of not awarding the prize at all.

That would be cool in figure skating. At the end of the competition the judges say, you all stunk, get out of here!

 

[jyshin]

And here's another innovation that figure skating could try. In some of the most prestigious piano competitions, the judges have the option of not awarding the prize at all.

That would be cool in figure skating. At the end of the competition the judges say, you all stunk, get out of here!

I laughed so hard that I can't breathe!

 

[gkelly]

I wonder how other forms of performing arts structure the evaluation system in competitions.

For skating as a performing arts competition, greater emphasis on the areas covered by the performance/execution, choreography, and interpretation components and less emphasis on difficulty would be appropriate.


Skating competitions governed by the ISU and those leading up to them and using similar formats, however, are NOT performing arts competitions. They're athletic competitions that happen to reward some qualities defined as "artistry" because those qualities demonstrate superior mastery of the athletic techniques.


There have been and are artistic skating competitions that take place outside of the ISU structure. Pro competitions. Local, national, and occasionally international competitions sponsored by some ISU member federations (France, Canada, and the US come to mind) and by ISI. The ISU did try its hand in the late 1990s at sponsoring a few interpretive events for a few current and past star athletes.

But there hasn't really ever been a coherent structure for organizing these kinds of events on an international scale the same way that there is for skating as a sport.

And of course there have been all sorts of noncompetitive ice shows that have emphasized artistic merit, in addition to those that aim more at casual entertainment showcasing well-known names from the sport of skating -- with some overlap.

I would love it if there were such a structure for developing and presenting skating performances in which art was the main concern and skating technique was harnessed to serve the artistic purposes. Figure skating as performing art rather than as sport. A different purpose for the medium of movement on blades.

As with music, dance, theatre, visual arts, and so forth, the highest achievements of skating as art would probably not exist in a competitive format at all, although there might be competitions along the way to develop and identify the potential professionals in this field. And of course auditions are a form of competition.