Best Ladies' 3Lutz ever?
- Thread starter LiamForeman
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2009
Midori Ito
Tonya Harding
Nancy Kerrigan
Tonya Harding
Nancy Kerrigan
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2011
Is there any jump where Ito's wasn't the best ever (in your opinion)? Besides maybe the 4Salchow.
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2015
I don't really think Ito's jumps were the best just because they were so big. She needed that air time because her leg wrap was horrific. I like figure skating because technique is more important than raw power. That's why I like the COP too actually. Honoring good technique is how we're getting so many quads and triple axels.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
all three of those ladies' lutzes. Just gorgeous, and they make them look so easy.Another way I think that COP has harmed jumps is that there is less emphasis on the flow and extension out of a jump. Sure, those things MIGHT be rewarded in GOE, but often skaters are in too much of a hurry to get into the next element that we rarely get the time to appreciate how well a jump is landed during the performance, IMO.
Regarding Ito, I remember reading that it was the other way around--that she needed the leg wrap so that she wouldn't overrotate her jumps. Not sure that it's true, but I've read commentary to that effect.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2013
- Country
-
Just for fun take a look at a thread on this subject from 2004.
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?6670-The-best-felmale-lutz
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?6670-The-best-felmale-lutz
Or she needed that leg wrap because she had so much air time and may overrotate otherwise?
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
- Country
-
Her wrap was not horrific, come on. There are skaters who've had horrific wraps and Ito is not one of them. It's also a fallacy to argue "she needed that air time because of the wrap." Getting that amount of air time is a large part of what MAKES an amazing jump and it's not something that happens because of a wrap. People with small jumps have had wraps. Ito got fully to backwards IN the air, with the wrap. Someone could jump smaller with that technique and still land cleanly, but the amount of air rotation would not be so perfect. Yukari Nakano had a more severe wrap and jumped smaller, which is what caused problems for her.
I don't think Ito's Lutz was the best ever. However, she was just so supreme at jumping in general and there are instances of her Lutzes being amazing and among the best ever. Tonya Harding's Lutz that I linked would be my vote for best female lutz ever.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2013
- Country
-
That Tonya Harding Lutz deserves a jumpamatron video. Once I get off of my phone I'll take a look at the video quality to see if it would be worthwhile. It seems likes a high quality clip.
Hm...I actually like jumps that look more controlled and contained. It looks more refined and less raw and wild. To me, it shows that the skater has control over their jumps. I feel like a Tonya Harding "throws" her jumps to the point where it becomes figure jumping and not figure skating.
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2006
THIS times two. Thank you BOP.
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2015
Not saying Ito didn't have great height or power. Just saying her technique was not necessarily that great overall. I don't know if that's true about her slowing the rotation so as not the over rotate. But if that were true I have to imagine she could have done a quad. I mean common sense would suggest that it's harder to control your body when you're spinning in a tight air position. Not saying that doing a high slow rotation jump is worse that a Tara Lapinski elf jump. Just saying that it isn't perfect technique.
Like I think right now my favorite triple lutz might be Karen Chen's:
https://youtu.be/24OItQKRG0I?t=56s
It isn't just the height but the speed and control that make her jumps exciting.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2014
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
- Country
-
Then what exactly would be great technique while maintaining such amazing amplitude? Technique is a means to an end. What girl can have "perfect" technique with that amplitude, anyway? Nobody. If a technique is sacrificing amplitude on a jump, then it is not "perfect" technique to begin with. Which is not to say that every jump of a program needs to be as massive as possible, but a couple jumps should definitely be "this is the biggest I can do it, watch". It's a measurable skill and it is exciting to watch. Both technically and artistically it is relevant to ice skating and should be valued.
She doesn't fully complete the rotation in the air on that jump. It's a great lutz but still not technically perfect either.
"Refined" and "raw and wild" are simply stylistic attributes. Some refined skaters couldn't do a raw, wild, sensuous performance if their life depended on it, and visa versa. So what? The bottom line is, it's more difficult to jump higher and explosively. This line about figure jumping is strange. Everyone has to get into the air using their skates and land on their skates regardless. It doesn't somehow show more skating skill to jump smaller and less explosively so that you decrease the possibility of messing up. Granted, people tend to do a higher degree of transitions into such jumps now, but that is a separate attribute. Midori Ito did spread eagles into massive 3Loops. Tonya Harding did great ina bauers into massive 3Flips. You can have both.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2007
I think this is the best of Yuna's lutz. https://youtu.be/OVMtCPyXoA8?t=45s As for the best ladies' lutz ever, my vote goes to Harding's.
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2015
Its not sacrificing amplitude. It is rotating in the air at maximum speed for the highest number of rotations possible. Again it takes control and a special body awareness to rotate faster and land elegantly. To me that's what makes figure skating different than gymnastics or say diving. It is about the physics of what you're doing. I also think that these 'conservative' or efficient triples is how so many skaters are able to achieve greater elements. If you figure out how to do a triple at nay high, when you get that much higher, you will be able to execute the quad.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
Something I have always wondered about Jumps mechanics and physics.
Gravity force dictate that no matter how heavy a balls is, it will fall at the same speed as a lighter ball. Therefore I have always wondered to do a proper 3lz (3A/Quads all jumps) with proper rotation, would a taller and heavier person like Kostner required to be in the air as long as someone like Satoko or longer? It may require greater effort to control your take off when you are taller than heavier, does that make it more difficult? If that is more difficult, why arn't they scored more. Also delayed lutz seems better technique and harder to execute, but are they officially recognized under GOE?
What are the threshold for speed / airtime variance for every one doing the same 3 rotation in the air, take off on the right edge, fall and land? Whether to continuing torque into a combination jump etc. If they are all in the air around the same time, then surely all these big and small jumps ends up being bit of an optical illusion? Depends on proportional size? The same jump will always look bigger on a smaller person than a big person. The smaller you are, the bigger the jump it can look.
I don't know the answers, but I have always hope for real hard measurable data so support heresays, and those visual surveying is hardly accurate lol! Midori ito for example is absolutely a tiny lady, 2cm shorter than Satoko, so her jumps would look bigger than everything else naturally.
Gravity force dictate that no matter how heavy a balls is, it will fall at the same speed as a lighter ball. Therefore I have always wondered to do a proper 3lz (3A/Quads all jumps) with proper rotation, would a taller and heavier person like Kostner required to be in the air as long as someone like Satoko or longer? It may require greater effort to control your take off when you are taller than heavier, does that make it more difficult? If that is more difficult, why arn't they scored more. Also delayed lutz seems better technique and harder to execute, but are they officially recognized under GOE?
What are the threshold for speed / airtime variance for every one doing the same 3 rotation in the air, take off on the right edge, fall and land? Whether to continuing torque into a combination jump etc. If they are all in the air around the same time, then surely all these big and small jumps ends up being bit of an optical illusion? Depends on proportional size? The same jump will always look bigger on a smaller person than a big person. The smaller you are, the bigger the jump it can look.
I don't know the answers, but I have always hope for real hard measurable data so support heresays, and those visual surveying is hardly accurate lol! Midori ito for example is absolutely a tiny lady, 2cm shorter than Satoko, so her jumps would look bigger than everything else naturally.
Last edited:
That's true only in vacuum. When you have air resistance, heavier objects have a better (or worse, how you see it) air resistance/weight ratio, assuming the same dimensions for both objects.
I think that Satoko needs less air time than Carolina just because she rotates faster, and starts the rotation earlier and ends it later.
Carolina needs more power to vault herself into the air than Satoko.
I think that, if they would jump with excatly the same technique, there wouldn't be a measurable difference in the air time.
Last edited:
