Boots for a better turn out

[Ic3Rabbit]

Risport RF1 and RF3 seem to allow skaters to have a deep movement and backward, so maybe that makes it easier to do turn out? I don’t know, but I will talk to her coach tomorrow.

Turn out comes from her knowing how to move her hips properly, not from a boot.

 

[SkateMomVancouver]

In theory, you can create a little outwards toe point by twisting through the leg, foot and ankle. But that might not be altogether healthy, especially when it comes to supporting your weight on turned out feet. But I was taught by ice dancers to seek an outwards toe point at the end of forwards swing rolls. Since I don't have much hip turnout, and don't seem able to develop it, to some extent I used that twist.

You could also style a boot to make it LOOK like you have more outwards toe point, by making the outside front of the boot thicker. I don't know of anyone who does that. And it might make other postures like weird.

It is quite common to use boots with cut down backs so you can use more of the other type of toe point, to the front, which is often advocated in many figure skating moves (including at the same time as the outwards toe point at the end of those forward swing rolls). But of course, that reduces the support the boot might give on jump landings. As with many things, there is a trade-off.

Just like there is a trade-off to developing a lot of hip turnout: to some extent it destabilizes the hip, and increases the likelihood of dislocation injuries. But it is expected in figure skating, as in many forms of performance dance.

Thank you for your comments!
Our skate tech did mention that he can cut back of the ankle lower to achieve more movement only if it’s needed. His recommendation is also to find out from the coach why she think different boots will help with the turn out and leg extensions.

 

[SkateMomVancouver]

I'm confused then and going to guess that @Diana Delafield is as well, since in your first post you said your daughter is working on double axels and triple jumps.

She is practicing double axel and triple jumps which are still under rotated. That’s what I meant by working on those jumps.

 

[SkateMomVancouver]

Turn out comes from her knowing how to move her hips properly, not from a boot.

Got it, thank you. This information will help me when I speak to her coach. RF1 or RF3 still seems like great boots to try. Thanks!

 

[Query]

Hip turnout is actually good and doesn't cause more chance of injury than trying to do half of the things listed above and skating with closed hips just doesn't work in figure skating. Proper hip turn out really isn't that hard and ice dancers should be teaching you that, not some weird thing that will possibly injure you. What kind of ice dancer even teaches that!!?!

The same Russian ice dance coach that taught me to bend my ankle sideways to get deeper edges. He had been an Olympic skater. Maybe his emphasis was more on competitive performance than health and safety.

I took group lessons from another Russian coach who did some things most American coaches would consider dangerous. E.g., he had a group of us adults running up and down bleachers for off-ice warmup. The kids he had running up and down a steep flight of stairs. He had young skaters put their weight on young other skaters while they stretched, to make them stretch more. And he had roughly 9 or 10 year old boys lift similar age girls, one after another. I've wondered whether Russian coaches tend to be less concerned with long term health and safety than Americans, because American law makes it easier to sue people. But I don't really have a big enough sample to be sure of that, and I'm sure it varies with the individual.

Skating is a form of performance dance. I'm sure you know that in all performance dance forms, people don't always seek to move in the healthiest possible ways.

I took a class on injury prevention for dancers with a bunch of ballerinas, based in part on Daniel D. Arnheim's Dance Injuries and Blandine Calais-Germain's, Anatomy of Movement. Both emphasized that hip turnout was safer than twisting through the leg and ankle (I forget the main issue - might have been knee injuries, such as ligament sprains and cartilage wear??). But they also talked about over-stretching hip turnout as a common dance injury problem. Of course, ballerinas often push stretching to extremes, sometimes deliberately dislocating joints, including hips, according to the teacher of that class. (It doesn't help any that entry into professional dance companies is extremely competitive.) But some figure skaters are just as competitive about flexibility.

I knew one gorgeous adult figure skater who loved to do moves with about 190 degree or maybe more hip turnout. She said it hurt her back a lot. But it got her a lot of attention, and she loved to do it anyway. I suspected the back pain meant it wasn't healthy for her. A lot of skaters tried to copy her moves - but needless to say, without that degree of hypermobility, they mostly couldn't.

For a while I started to develop knee pains when jumping. My coach at the time (a different coach) told me it was because my of that bent ankle, and the leg alignment it produced. She told me to fix my leg alignment. I eventually got rid of the pain, so maybe it worked.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

The same Russian ice dance coach that taught me to bend my ankle sideways to get deeper edges. He had been an Olympic skater. Maybe his emphasis was more on competitive performance than health and safety.

I took group lessons from another Russian coach who did some things most American coaches would consider dangerous. E.g., he had a group of us adults running up and down bleachers for off-ice warmup. The kids he had running up and down a steep flight of stairs. He had young skaters put their weight on young other skaters while they stretched, to make them stretch more. And he had roughly 9 or 10 year old boys lift similar age girls, one after another. I've wondered whether Russian coaches tend to be less concerned with long term health and safety than Americans, because American law makes it easier to sue people. But I don't really have a big enough sample to be sure of that, and I'm sure it varies with the individual.

Skating is a form of performance dance. I'm sure you know that in all performance dance forms, people don't always seek to move in the healthiest possible ways.

I took a class on injury prevention for dancers with a bunch of ballerinas, based in part on Daniel D. Arnheim's Dance Injuries and Blandine Calais-Germain's, Anatomy of Movement. Both emphasized that hip turnout was safer than twisting through the leg and ankle (I forget the main issue - might have been knee injuries, such as ligament sprains and cartilage wear??). But they also talked about over-stretching hip turnout as a common dance injury problem. Of course, ballerinas often push stretching to extremes, sometimes deliberately dislocating joints, including hips, according to the teacher of that class. (It doesn't help any that entry into professional dance companies is extremely competitive.) But some figure skaters are just as competitive about flexibility.

I knew one gorgeous adult figure skater who loved to do moves with about 190 degree or maybe more hip turnout. She said it hurt her back a lot. But it got her a lot of attention, and she loved to do it anyway. I suspected the back pain meant it wasn't healthy for her. A lot of skaters tried to copy her moves - but needless to say, without that degree of hypermobility, they mostly couldn't.

For a while I started to develop knee pains when jumping. My coach at the time (a different coach) told me it was because my of that bent ankle, and the leg alignment it produced. She told me to fix my leg alignment. I eventually got rid of the pain, so maybe it worked.

None of this off ice training is new. We all did it. And I'd absolutely love to know what Russian ice dance coach this is b/c I had many of the best when I trained to the elite level years ago. Some Russian, some not but none American, so can't tell you much about that from my own training at least in ice dance. And sorry but I wouldn't call all skating a form of "performance dance." But let's just agree to disagree here b/c I don't feel like getting a lecture that I don't need. And I say that respectfully from my side and I hope you can respect that.

 

[SkateMomVancouver]

I spoke to my daughter’s coach and found out the issue was not about turn out, it’s about toe pointing during jump. Usually, when skaters land jumps, they land on front half of the blades first. However, my daughter appears to be landing on full blade or almost on her heel. This makes her fall backward a lot on flip and lutz. Her coach wants her to find boots that makes her easier to land from her toe.

We will visit our fitter this week to see if Risport RF3 or RF1 would allow her to bend her ankle. She has narrow heels, so I hope Risport is narrow enough for her heels.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I spoke to my daughter’s coach and found out the issue was not about turn out, it’s about toe pointing during jump. Usually, when skaters land jumps, they land on front half of the blades first. However, my daughter appears to be landing on full blade or almost on her heel. This makes her fall backward a lot on flip and lutz. Her coach wants her to find boots that makes her easier to land from her toe.

We will visit our fitter this week to see if Risport RF3 or RF1 would allow her to bend her ankle. She has narrow heels, so I hope Risport is narrow enough for her heels.

OK, that one I'm going to have to leave up to @Ic3Rabbit ! She's the elite coach, I'm just a skater who has never had that problem and have no idea how to fix it. (Except that I can't quite see how the boot is going to affect that habit? I'm trying to picture that and it sounds more like a technique problem. Or even the blade curve. But I don't know enough and am just throwing out guesses. You can get much better advice from someone who actually knows what she's talking about!)

 

[Query]

None of this off ice training is new. We all did it. And I'd absolutely love to know what Russian ice dance coach this is b/c I had many of the best when I trained to the elite level years ago. Some Russian, some not but none American, so can't tell you much about that from my own training at least in ice dance. And sorry but I wouldn't call all skating a form of "performance dance." But let's just agree to disagree here b/c I don't feel like getting a lecture that I don't need. And I say that respectfully from my side and I hope you can respect that.

I'll respond privately.

 

[Query]

Hip turnout is actually good and doesn't cause more chance of injury than trying to do half of the things listed above and skating with closed hips just doesn't work in figure skating. Proper hip turn out really isn't that hard and ice dancers should be teaching you that, not some weird thing that will possibly injure you. What kind of ice dancer even teaches that!!?!

I'd rather not give the coach's name publically because he is controversial, and is now banned.

I tried to reply privately, but you blocked me.

In any event, his English wasn't very good. I'm not sure how well I understood many of the things he said.

 

[SkateMomVancouver]

OK, that one I'm going to have to leave up to @Ic3Rabbit ! She's the elite coach, I'm just a skater who has never had that problem and have no idea how to fix it. (Except that I can't quite see how the boot is going to affect that habit? I'm trying to picture that and it sounds more like a technique problem. Or even the blade curve. But I don't know enough and am just throwing out guesses. You can get much better advice from someone who actually knows what she's talking about!)

Her coach herself is not exactly sure why, it could be a bad habit of my daughter that has never been corrected to this day. We have moved to the current club six months ago from a coach of 6 years.
Her coach is just trying to see if other brand of boots may help my daughter with this problem.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I'd rather not give the coach's name publically because he is controversial, and is now banned.

I tried to reply privately, but you blocked me.

In any event, his English wasn't very good. I'm not sure how well I understood many of the things he said.

Uh, you aren't blocked from DM. I just have the option checked that people I follow and follow me can send me DM's and that's it.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

OK, that one I'm going to have to leave up to @Ic3Rabbit ! She's the elite coach, I'm just a skater who has never had that problem and have no idea how to fix it. (Except that I can't quite see how the boot is going to affect that habit? I'm trying to picture that and it sounds more like a technique problem. Or even the blade curve. But I don't know enough and am just throwing out guesses. You can get much better advice from someone who actually knows what she's talking about!)

It's not a boot problem, it's a technique problem and if the coach is not teaching and enforcing said proper technique then there's the problem.

 

[SkateMomVancouver]

It's not a boot problem, it's a technique problem and if the coach is not teaching and enforcing said proper technique then there's the problem.

Thanks, good to know that it’s not a boot problem. Then we may not need to have my daughter switch out from Riedell. Our fitter told me Risport don’t sell narrow width in Canada, so that would not work for my daughter.

I’m sure her new coach is teaching the proper technique. However, changing the technique that my daughter got accustomed to does not happen overnight.

Thank you very much for your input. I need to buy my daughter new boots before tariffs come into play (for US made boots) anyway. I will have her try on Risport and Edea boots.

 

[Diana Delafield]

It's not a boot problem, it's a technique problem and if the coach is not teaching and enforcing said proper technique then there's the problem.

That's what I thought. It seemed the only logical reason for landing on her heel. It sounds as if she needs to go right back to waltz jumps and start again.

 

[Query]

IC3Rabbit: The Russian coach I learned a lot of ice dance from was Genrikh Sretenski - but let's avoid discussing his controversies here. He emphasized that most of the time my upper and lower body should be counter-rotated against each other (a different style than most American ice dancers use), which forced me to rotate through my my whole spine. Because his English was not great, and I don't understand Russian, and I was close to a complete beginner, maybe I mis-interpreted that to mean the twist should extend lower. I eventually switched because I needed a coach who could tell as well as show, and I wanted a female coach I could partner with. (But she and most of my later coaches were Genrikh's students.)

If that technique was wrong, I had a lot of other coaches since who didn't correct it - but maybe it was hard to notice, because I'm not fond of wearing skin-tight clothing. A later coach only noticed it when I started developing knee pain in jumps, and she realized I had knee alignment issues.

The sideways bent ankle may have been because I wasn't otherwise flexible enough to do what Genrikh wanted - e.g., to end progressive and crossover underpushes with a brush of the top of my boots across the ice, just before lifting them off the ice.

Also, he was only teaching me low level ice dance. No jumps, which might be the place where twists and bends have the greatest potential to create injuries.

The other Russian coach I mentioned was Alexei Kiliakov. But I only had him for group lessons, with a lot of people in them, so he had limited time to correct technical issues - and I still wasn't wearing skin tight clothing, so maybe he couldn't clearly see what my ankle and knee were doing. I guess too much modesty can sometimes be a bad thing.


Back to the original topic - would you guess she might be able to land on the front of the blade better if she had boots that were cut down lower in the back? Or would you guess she is over-booted, so doesn't have the strength to point?

Seems like there isn't enough info to guess what applies.

 

[tstop4me]

Her coach herself is not exactly sure why, it could be a bad habit of my daughter that has never been corrected to this day. We have moved to the current club six months ago from a coach of 6 years.
Her coach is just trying to see if other brand of boots may help my daughter with this problem.

If my coach said to me, "Your current boots are hindering your progress, because of X, Y, Z. I recommend that you consider Boot A or Boot B instead.", I would answer, "Thanks. I'll make an appointment with my regular fitter. He handles all the major lines."

But if my coach said to me, "I don't know what the cause of your problem is. But I'd like you to spend $$$ on a different brand of boots; and let's see if that helps. And, before you ask, no, I don't have a recommendation for a specific brand.", I would say, "Oh.", and ask other skaters for recommendations for a new coach right quick.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

IC3Rabbit: The Russian coach I learned a lot of ice dance from was Genrikh Sretenski - but let's avoid discussing his controversies here. He emphasized that most of the time my upper and lower body should be counter-rotated against each other (a different style than most American ice dancers use), which forced me to rotate through my my whole spine. Because his English was not great, and I don't understand Russian, and I was close to a complete beginner, maybe I mis-interpreted that to mean the twist should extend lower. I eventually switched because I needed a coach who could tell as well as show, and I wanted a female coach I could partner with. (But she and most of my later coaches were Genrikh's students.)

If that technique was wrong, I had a lot of other coaches since who didn't correct it - but maybe it was hard to notice, because I'm not fond of wearing skin-tight clothing. A later coach only noticed it when I started developing knee pain in jumps, and she realized I had knee alignment issues.

The sideways bent ankle may have been because I wasn't otherwise flexible enough to do what Genrikh wanted - e.g., to end progressive and crossover underpushes with a brush of the top of my boots across the ice, just before lifting them off the ice.

Also, he was only teaching me low level ice dance. No jumps, which might be the place where twists and bends have the greatest potential to create injuries.

The other Russian coach I mentioned was Alexei Kiliakov. But I only had him for group lessons, with a lot of people in them, so he had limited time to correct technical issues - and I still wasn't wearing skin tight clothing, so maybe he couldn't clearly see what my ankle and knee were doing. I guess too much modesty can sometimes be a bad thing.


Back to the original topic - would you guess she might be able to land on the front of the blade better if she had boots that were cut down lower in the back? Or would you guess she is over-booted, so doesn't have the strength to point?

Seems like there isn't enough info to guess what applies.

Low cut boots really aren't for jumping, especially at her level. More for ice dance needs.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thanks, good to know that it’s not a boot problem. Then we may not need to have my daughter switch out from Riedell. Our fitter told me Risport don’t sell narrow width in Canada, so that would not work for my daughter.

I’m sure her new coach is teaching the proper technique. However, changing the technique that my daughter got accustomed to does not happen overnight.

Thank you very much for your input. I need to buy my daughter new boots before tariffs come into play (for US made boots) anyway. I will have her try on Risport and Edea boots.

Stick with Riedell then. Don't even attempt Edea, the looseness feel of the ankles is not going to help her technique issues at all, but make them worse.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Thanks, good to know that it’s not a boot problem. Then we may not need to have my daughter switch out from Riedell. Our fitter told me Risport don’t sell narrow width in Canada, so that would not work for my daughter.

I’m sure her new coach is teaching the proper technique. However, changing the technique that my daughter got accustomed to does not happen overnight.

Thank you very much for your input. I need to buy my daughter new boots before tariffs come into play (for US made boots) anyway. I will have her try on Risport and Edea boots.

My Risport RF1s are AA width and I bought them in Vancouver. Not as common as B and C widths that they might have in stock, granted, but your shop still should be able to order them for you if that's the width that fits her best. I've never been in Skater's Edge, but know people who live nearer to Coquitlam and shop there. It's a smaller store than Cyclone Taylor so not as big a stock on hand, but I'm sure they'll order what they don't have on the shelves.