Breakthrough - Liza Tuks joins the echelons of 3A ladies

[cheerknithanson]

Agreed. And hopefully this will push other skaters to pursue quads and 3A themselves. I think come 2018, we'll see about 3-5 3A or quad attempts in the SP. Does the ISU allow quad attempts for ladies in the SP or is it just a triple?

As of right now, just a triple. Which I think should be changed. Yes I KNOW that Miki Ando is the only female who has landed a quad in an international competition. But I think in the future, more ladies will be trying it. So I think it should be added regardless.

 

[jkun]

The 3A will definitely become common now, as predicted. It's such a massive point difference in the SP and there is no real differentiation between the GOE's of other elements or on the PCS.

Now, regarding Tuk's 3A, it's great that she pulled it off, but we shouldn't be calling the jump itself excellent. The air position is not very good and the rotation was tight, plus she landed on the inside edge. You can see the jerkiness on the landing as the blade flips back over to an outside edge. If any male skater did a 3A like this it would be 0 GOE.

Wow, thanks for pointing that out BoP. She did land on an inside edge.. More stuff to improve on. I guess

 

[jkun]

As of right now, just a triple. Which I think should be changed. Yes I KNOW that Miki Ando is the only female who has landed a quad in an international competition. But I think in the future, more ladies will be trying it. So I think it should be added regardless.

I think the 3A is much more worth it in the sp than a quad for the ladies, right now. The point difference between a 3A and 2A is bigger than say a 3Lz/3F/3R and a quad. Now if you had both a 3A and a quad.... They better scale the PCS system to match the men's when that happens... @_@

 

[yuki]

Wow, thanks for pointing that out BoP. She did land on an inside edge.. More stuff to improve on. I guess

:think: From this replay angle it looks like she landed a bit forward, but on the outside edge, am I missing something?

 

[begin]

No, we actually agree on that, PCS shouldn't reflect the TES score. When I say she had the best skate of the day I mean that she had the best skate of the day, not the best jumps. If you nail an element like that it certainly adds to the performance, to the interpretation and to the program, because she obviously gained a lot of confidence from it. You can't ignore how the crowd was all attention. And it's not that she got a whole lot of points more than the others in PCS.
And you didn't answer my question: Compared to whom do you think she was overscored in PCS? Elena? Satako? Kanako? Maybe Gracie? Zijun? Polina?

I didn't answer your question because it's OT. Bring this to the SP thread if you'd like.

 

[solani]

I'm no expert but I think control is more important for the 3A. Adelina gets really wild in the air when she goes for her axels. Mao never had a powerful 2A but she had the timing and air position down pat. Same goes for Liza and Ito.

If Liza keeps her technical edge and consistency then hopefully the judges will calm down with her PCS. They ought to keep the competition alive!

I didn't answer your question because it's OT. Bring this to the SP thread if you'd like.

You should work on your debating skills.

I'll stay right here to celebrate Elizaveta's achievement!

 

[Kelly]

Triple axel ladies: Midori Ito (1988), Tonya Harding (1991), Yukari Nakano (2002), Ludmila Nelidina (2002), Mao Asada (2005), Kimmie Meissner (2005, US Nats), Elizaveta Tuktamysheva (2015)

It is amazing that it took 10 years after Meissner before we get another lady who manage to land this holy grail of triple jump. Indeed, the technical aspect of ladies skating hadn't progress as far as the men who are regularly heading for quads.

Mao landed 3 axel in sp and lp in 2014 worlds. And her sp there currently holds the world record for the ladies' short program score.
I'm glad Tuk landed it just one year after.

 

[sabinfire]

:think: From this replay angle it looks like she landed a bit forward, but on the outside edge, am I missing something?

Here's the best I've been able to do so far, quality-wise in slow-motion/close-ups of the 3A:

https://youtu.be/dwAIKcCEaXQ

 

[begin]

:think: From this replay angle it looks like she landed a bit forward, but on the outside edge, am I missing something?

She rebounds back to the outside but I think BoP is right about her touching down on the inside edge. Regardless--squeaky clean on the rotation!

You should work on your debating skills.

I'll stay right here to celebrate Elizaveta's achievement!

That wasn't me debating you--that was me trying not to be a nuisance. If you want to have a go on this then take it to right thread and we'll 'debate' there.

 

[Globetrotter]

Now, regarding Tuk's 3A, it's great that she pulled it off, but we shouldn't be calling the jump itself excellent. The air position is not very good and the rotation was tight, plus she landed on the inside edge. You can see the jerkiness on the landing as the blade flips back over to an outside edge. If any male skater did a 3A like this it would be 0 GOE.

Here's the best I've been able to do so far, quality-wise in slow-motion/close-ups of the 3A:

https://youtu.be/dwAIKcCEaXQ

Hmm I am no expert but what I can see is that the landing in slo-mo was just a little forward and the outside edge wasn't as deep as what I thought. Due to the angle, I can't quite see how she landed on an inside edge. I still think the 3A was fully ratified but I can understand BoP's point that in terms of GOE, this should only be 0. I would be open to +1 but certainly not +2. Certainly the TES for Tuks is deservedly high for the gauntlet she had laid down. My quibble is really with the PCS. I am fine with her SS and TR scores being in the mid 8s. However as what some postings had described, the choreography certainly suffered as her SP was never really set up to include the 3A early. I think the choreo should get at most only 6's although I would be ok for PE in the 7's - I actually like it after she completed all the jump elements where you could see the confidence and a StSq that was visibly much more confident and energetic than what she delivered in previous competitions. Overall, I think the PCS should be about a point less, but otherwise, Tuks gave a superb technical lesson.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Overall, I think the PCS should be about a point less, but otherwise, Tuks gave a superb technical lesson.

So are you saying she should be 1 point ahead of Elena and 2 ahead of Gracie/Ashley in PCS, based on the performances?

 

[Miss Ice]

So something I really like about Liza's 3A is her entrance; it is not forced like Mao's, as in she doesn't lean too much forward, and it doesn't take her as long to set up. I'm pretty impressed. :agree:

 

[chairmanmao]

Right now, Sotnikova seems to be the only other skater who a 3A is realistic. And a quad even.

How I wish it was Adelina with the 3A. At this rate Liza could break FS WR as early as tommorow. It would have been much more poignant for Adelina to break it for obvious reasons.

 

[cooper]

there's no doubt liza will break that SP record soon.. just want to see how the "fans" will react.. especially with a better 3A..

heck even the fs record.. for all i care.. at least with liza she has the real "lutz"..

 

[hippomoomin]

With the wonderful 3A Liza has, Mao may not have any motivation to return to competition anymore.

 

[jenaj]

Hmm I am no expert but what I can see is that the landing in slo-mo was just a little forward and the outside edge wasn't as deep as what I thought. Due to the angle, I can't quite see how she landed on an inside edge. I still think the 3A was fully ratified but I can understand BoP's point that in terms of GOE, this should only be 0. I would be open to +1 but certainly not +2. Certainly the TES for Tuks is deservedly high for the gauntlet she had laid down. My quibble is really with the PCS. I am fine with her SS and TR scores being in the mid 8s. However as what some postings had described, the choreography certainly suffered as her SP was never really set up to include the 3A early. I think the choreo should get at most only 6's although I would be ok for PE in the 7's - I actually like it after she completed all the jump elements where you could see the confidence and a StSq that was visibly much more confident and energetic than what she delivered in previous competitions. Overall, I think the PCS should be about a point less, but otherwise, Tuks gave a superb technical lesson.

If she landed on the inside edge (which I don't see) is would be for just a millisecond, since the landing position that allows the skater to ride out the jump is always on the back outside edge. I can't believe the nit-picking that is going on here. For ladies skaters, a fully-credited triple axel is as rare as hen's teeth. Yet some want to compare Liza's 3A to men's jumping and say it comes up short! Well, duh. If men's jumps are the standard, a lot of ladies are coming up short.

 

[Meoima]

If she landed on the inside edge (which I don't see) is would be for just a millisecond, since the landing position that allows the skater to ride out the jump is always on the back outside edge. I can't believe the nit-picking that is going on here. For ladies skaters, a fully-credited triple axel is as rare as hen's teeth. Yet some want to compare Liza's 3A to men's jumping and say it comes up short! Well, duh. If men's jumps are the standard, a lot of ladies are coming up short.

I'd say Liza jumps 3A better than some men.

 

[Globetrotter]

So are you saying she should be 1 point ahead of Elena and 2 ahead of Gracie/Ashley in PCS, based on the performances?

yes, I think that overall, what stuck out as odd to me in Tuks performance was the choreo. It was scored 8.46 but i just felt that it should be at most about 6.8-7 as the composition of the elements just didn't feel right. Thus if you assume the other components stay the same, the PCS after the 0.8 factor will come out to about 32.37 max. Thats less than a point above Lena and slightly more than a point and a half above Gold and Wagner.

 

[mirai4life]

Adelina's doesn't go wild with her 2A. I think you're thinking of Gracie Gold.

 

[Blades of Passion]

So something I really like about Liza's 3A is her entrance; it is not forced like Mao's, as in she doesn't lean too much forward, and it doesn't take her as long to set up. I'm pretty impressed. :agree:

Not as long of a set up, huh? Tukt definitely takes plenty of time going into hers and with not as much speed as Mao had, in my estimation. If you watch Mao's 3A in the SP from Worlds last year, it does not look forced or leaned-forward much at all? Tukt's takeoff is a bit more swingy if you ask me.

Neither of their 3Axel's are completed fully in the air or have the massive amplitude normally associated with the jump, so in that regard they lack a certain impact. Midori Ito remains untouched.