Brian Joubert

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Ian jenkins is the guy that Brian went to see for the problem that he had with his skates earlier this season (usualy Alain Gilletti looks after his skates).

ok, then Jenkins is a skate fixer, but who is doing this Matrix choreography? Is Platov still involved?

 

[antmanb]

They were all in 2003 Worlds where Goebel came in 2nd and Weiss was in 2004 Dortmund with Johnny Weir. Honda always seemed to be everywhere.

I think 2003 was when Joubert was in the final group and was more the up and coming youngster. Goebel and Honda would not compete again at the worlds. By 2004 Weiss was on his way out - wasn't that his questionable nationals year too? I think Honda got injured after 2003 and didn't compete again. Was that his season where he did 3 quads in an LP?

ok, then Jenkins is a skate fixer, but who is doing this Matrix choreography? Is Platov still involved?

It seems that he is a former British Pairs skater who at some point worked with Sarah Abitbol & Stephane Bernadis - so he might have some links with france http://www.eiskunstlauf-ecke.de/archiv/photodir/skaters/pairs/klocke-jenkins_gbr.shtml

Ant

 

[Kinga]

7) Brian will really have to work on his exhibition programs to show judges that he can do great stuff on different kinds of music.

This is a bit odd. Why should he get benefit from judges basing on his exhibition programs?? If you are able to skate to different music, show it to judges in competition. Exhibition has nothing to do with it.

 

[Buttercup]

I think 2003 was when Joubert was in the final group and was more the up and coming youngster. Goebel and Honda would not compete again at the worlds. By 2004 Weiss was on his way out - wasn't that his questionable nationals year too? I think Honda got injured after 2003 and didn't compete again. Was that his season where he did 3 quads in an LP?

Ant, am I on your ignore list? No, Honda did not retire in 2003. He was still skating GPs in 2005 (not very successfully, I'll allow). Goebel was at 2005 Worlds - though considering his 10th place finish in the great Moscow splatfest, it's probably not a memory he'll cherish.

Abitbol/Bernadis had some fun programs, and I hope this decision will work out for Joubert.

 

[Dodhiyel]

I remember when Alexei Yagudin changed his program from "Broken Arrow" to "Tosca" shortly before Worlds. It is always a gamble to change to a new program in a matter of weeks before a major competition, but Yagudin won.

Euros are just around the corner, now, and I am not familiar with Jenkins' work, but the old "Matrix" program suited Brian's style so well, and I am hoping that this new program will do the same. Sometimes one just has to gamble.

However, I do want to say that I think that Brian has shown a lot of versatility recently, and I have enjoyed very much watching his videos on YouTube. His two exhibition programs have been so different from one another, that it has been a delight. My favorite is "Hallelujah".

I want to say also that I particularly loved his new costume for "Last of the Mohicans"; it was beautifully symbolic while being sleek enough to emphasize his classic lines.

Now, looking forward to his new Free Skate; I shall be rooting for him at Euros.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Ant, am I on your ignore list? No, Honda did not retire in 2003. He was still skating GPs in 2005 (not very successfully, I'll allow). Goebel was at 2005 Worlds - though considering his 10th place finish in the great Moscow splatfest, it's probably not a memory he'll cherish.

I think (my memory is going) after Goebel won the Silver Medal at Worlds 2003, expectations were running high that he was Plushenko's biggest rival. However, the following year he got that spine misplacement thing and had boots changed but nothing worked. He was physically unable to skate further. At some point, I seem to recall he took a season off because of the spine misplacement. When he returned to skating Nationals, Weir was already making a name for himself. I was not his best fan but I did feel for his downward slide.

Joubert was right there with the Columbus sail costume and threw that 2005 Worlds away with Plushy's withdrawall, and Lambiel rose to the occasion. He had to be careful in the future, not only Plushy was still around, but Weir and Lysacek were gaining on him medal wise. It wasn't till 2006 Olys that Joubert began to get back his stature and again his threat was Lambiel. Many top tier male skaters left the competitions, and Joubert had to face the newbies. He's the last of that Russian male dominated era.

Abitbol/Bernadis had some fun programs, and I hope this decision will work out for Joubert.

So, I take it Jenkins is the choreographer, and since I am not aware of him, it will make an interesting presentation for Brian for me to see. There are, however, other 'metronome dancers' who do quite well with that style - from Sweden!

 

[antmanb]

Ant, am I on your ignore list?

No not at all!! I overlooked the last sentence of the post where you said all three retired in 2006! (I was reading the responses quickly and before my morning coffee!)

No, Honda did not retire in 2003. He was still skating GPs in 2005 (not very successfully, I'll allow). Goebel was at 2005 Worlds - though considering his 10th place finish in the great Moscow splatfest, it's probably not a memory he'll cherish.

Ok - it's clear that most of my post was comlpetely incorrect then!! I thought it was much longer ago that Goebel had been to worlds! Thanks for the corrections Buttercup.

Abitbol/Bernadis had some fun programs, and I hope this decision will work out for Joubert.

I loved Abitbol&Bernadis - they were my favourite pair for a while and one of my all time favourites overall. The originality of their programs, the lifts. The Maxim Rodriguez compositions. I will never forget their attempted throw triple axels. I always felt such excitement watching them, even though they weren't always polished in all their movements. I always thought they chose great music that allowed their quirkiness to shine. I always felt the same about Christina Czako but that's another thread!

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It is always a gamble to change to a new program in a matter of weeks before a major competition, but Yagudin won.

I agree to a point with your statement, however, there are no more than a few skaters, imo, who are so musical that a change of program is not such a gamble unless the choice of music was not good.

As Lysacek says in another thread, Lori Nichol is both a coach and choreographer. Easy to pick up changes with her. I am sure there are others too, but it is the skater's innate ability to pick up new programs quickly which is paramount for changing. That really hasn't been tested as far as I know. It is quite normal in stage dancing to be able to change numbers.

Matrix type dancing, imo, isn't much of a stretch compared to other music with decided changes in timing, pace and mood.

But, good luck to Brian. He'll have a rehearsal at Euros and the finished product at Worlds. He is the Front Runner this and next season.

 

[Buttercup]

I overlooked the last sentence of the post where you said all three retired in 2006! (I was reading the responses quickly and before my morning coffee!)

I can identify, except for me it's carbs, not coffee. Terrible breakfast habits.

I loved Abitbol&Bernadis - they were my favourite pair for a while and one of my all time favourites overall. The originality of their programs, the lifts. The Maxim Rodriguez compositions. I will never forget their attempted throw triple axels. I always felt such excitement watching them, even though they weren't always polished in all their movements. I always thought they chose great music that allowed their quirkiness to shine.

You know, when I started watching there were all these crazy and/or cool French programs, with Sarah and Stephane, Stannick Jeannette, Venessa Gusmeroli and the others. I still think there's a lot of originality with many of the French skaters, and maybe we'll see some crazy stuff from Brian, too.

 

[antmanb]

You know, when I started watching there were all these crazy and/or cool French programs, with Sarah and Stephane, Stannick Jeannette, Venessa Gusmeroli and the others. I still think there's a lot of originality with many of the French skaters, and maybe we'll see some crazy stuff from Brian, too.

I wish that were true! I think Joubert has (whether rightly or wrongly remains to be seen) tried to follow in the footsteps of Yags/Plush with more Bravura not-dancey programs/perforamnces (if that make sense). I think he missed out on what i had presumed was the french skating gene( )that makes the skaters come up with programs that should be nuts when you describe them but actually work on the ice!

I used to love Dambier too even though he wasn't as out there as Stannick! Joubert by comparison is very vanilla. Still he really nails his elements...though i do think Dambier was undermarked particularly when he went clean.

Ant

 

[Medusa]

I wish that were true! I think Joubert has (whether rightly or wrongly remains to be seen) tried to follow in the footsteps of Yags/Plush with more Bravura not-dancey programs/perforamnces (if that make sense). I think he missed out on what i had presumed was the french skating gene( )that makes the skaters come up with programs that should be nuts when you describe them but actually work on the ice!

I used to love Dambier too even though he wasn't as out there as Stannick! Joubert by comparison is very vanilla. Still he really nails his elements...though i do think Dambier was undermarked particularly when he went clean.

I remember watching the exhibition of Euros 2002 where Brian won his first medal and the British Eurosport guys were saying what I have been thinking about this then new-kid-on-the-block all the time: He skates like an American.

There is nothing really French about his skating, including the fact that he is probably the most successful and consistent French male skater in nearly 40 years of skating history (Alain Calmat was the last World Champion from France, interesting guy). That always bugged me about Stannick and Fréderic, they just couldn't keep it together, such a creative skating style, so many new ideas... I still rub my eyes in disbelief because of Préaubert's, (Ponsero's) and Amodio's sudden consistency (not all the time, but at least a few times this season).

Despite Brian's lack of French creativity, craziness, artistry etc. - I just love to watch him skate, the power, the speed, the muscle-jumps, the good skating skills, the charisma...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
He really was special for me in Skate Canada in Quebec (before he got sick). He showed off his rhythmic body language (thanks to Kurt) which would be even more appreciated to those who like him for those stick figure movements to Matrix.

 

[herios]

^^^
He really was special for me in Skate Canada in Quebec (before he got sick). He showed off his rhythmic body language (thanks to Kurt) which would be even more appreciated to those who like him for those stick figure movements to Matrix.

Yes indeed, his SP was outstanding. Powerful, rhytmic and even musical.
This years Sp is more like a classical Brian routine, still OK But he had to do something with the LP, he never looked like he settled into it. Boot problems, physical problems, it looked like work in progress. he has to find a vehicle to be comfortable with so he can land those jumps, All of them, without downgrading, like last year in Gotheburg,
He has his fellow frenchmen (Preaubert / Ponsero) hot on his heels and show at these Euros "who is the man"...otherwise it might be trouble...

I love listening to Kurt Browning when he is disecting his former pupil's skating, he calls him the "shark in the pond'
I have the feeling like he is "under pressure", which is strange to me. With Buttle and Lambiel's retirement and Takahashi's injury, there was such a moment for a guy to really took the step up into the lead and Brian was the one who was the obvious candidate, he looks like has problems to seize this opportunity...soon we will find out...

Joseph

 

[NatachaHatawa]

This is a bit odd. Why should he get benefit from judges basing on his exhibition programs?? If you are able to skate to different music, show it to judges in competition. Exhibition has nothing to do with it.

Even though judges don't have anything to do with exhibitons, they still watch them. What they see stays in their mind. If they see Brian skating to something a little different to his competition programs, in their mind he won't be associated to one style of music. If he shows versatility during exhibitions, judges will be less likely when giving Brian his artistic grades to give him a low one because of lack of versatility.

Concerning Brian being able to skate to different music, ha can, but the problem is not all kinds of music suite him for competitions, when under competition pressure he either falls apart technicaly because the music doesn't reassure him or doesn't interpret the program to it's full potential or both.

Here's one the rare times when during a competition he performed something a little different and got it right technicaly and artisticaly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTViPr5eIUM

Here's another example of Brian not doing his usual thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXXfxHt3xg

It's good for him if the judges have these kinds of images in their mind and not just Matrix or Metallica.

 

[antmanb]

Even though judges don't have anything to do with exhibitons, they still watch them. What they see stays in their mind. If they see Brian skating to something a little different to his competition programs, in their mind he won't be associated to one style of music. If he shows versatility during exhibitions, judges will be less likely when giving Brian his artistic grades to give him a low one because of lack of versatility.

Well if they do, then shame on them. The judges should judge what they see on competition ice and nothing else. Of course it would naive to think that they don't but still.

Equally is versatility (in terms of styles of music) mentioned anywhere in the code of points? Certainly versatility in expressing different tempos/speeds within a program is achievable but i'm not sure you could express completely different styles within one program without using jarring cuts of music (maybe i've ansered my own question on why Plushy always scoared so well ). Since the judges judge each program separately ie each one is a stand alone program to be marked i can't see how anyone could justify marking a skater down for doing "same old, same old".

The other obsevration is - of course skaters can branch out regarding style in the exhibitions - they don't get marked, they don't have a number of required jump/spin/step elements in the program. They don't have to make sure they rachet up features in the spins/steps and waste time checking of the COP points. They can do backflips to get the audience to roar. They can ham it up for the audience....it's just apples and oranges. I'm not sure that if i were a judge it would even enter my mind what a skater has done in exhibitions when i'm looking at their competitive program. I'd probably be too busy trying to punch in all the number and focusing on the skate!

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Even though judges don't have anything to do with exhibitons, they still watch them. What they see stays in their mind. If they see Brian skating to something a little different to his competition programs, in their mind he won't be associated to one style of music. If he shows versatility during exhibitions, judges will be less likely when giving Brian his artistic grades to give him a low one because of lack of versatility.

Good topic for discussion but difficult to say how much judges are influenced by skating programs outside competitions. Judges are human, too and some have favorites, some have dislikes for certain countries, some have to appease their Federations, some are looking for a way to buck the system. There are now 7 of them in a competition - down from 11 so things will change.

 

[Mathman]

Judges are human, too...

About other things that can influencing the judges, one thing that has generated controversy is the judges' attending the practice sessions. The judges say they like to get a feel for what the skaters are doing, so they have a heads-up on what to look for in the competition.

Sometimes this has the effect that a judge will say, oh, she missed this jump, but I saw her do it 10 times in a row in practice, so I can cur her a little slack here.

 

[antmanb]

About other things that can influencing the judges, one thing that has generated controversy is the judges' attending the practice sessions. The judges say they like to get a feel for what the skaters are doing, so they have a heads-up on what to look for in the competition.

Sometimes this has the effect that a judge will say, oh, she missed this jump, but I saw her do it 10 times in a row in practice, so I can cur her a little slack here.

I would have thought that that mindset had much more of an effect under 6.0 than it does under COP though. When a judge was hading out the one mark no-one had any insight into why the mark had been given. If a judge basing his/her score on what s/he has seen in practice gives a 0 or -1 to everyone else's -2 or -3 it's clear that something is amiss.

The main issue that I can see is that nothing ever happens to the judge who marks in that way. Like a judge who gives -2 for a fall on a jump when the rest have uniformly given -3.

Ant

 

[Buttercup]

I would have thought that that mindset had much more of an effect under 6.0 than it does under COP though. When a judge was hading out the one mark no-one had any insight into why the mark had been given. If a judge basing his/her score on what s/he has seen in practice gives a 0 or -1 to everyone else's -2 or -3 it's clear that something is amiss.

I'm not sure how much this might affect a skater's GOEs, but I think a favorable perception carried over from practice could lead to higher PCS.

Re Joubert and different styles of skating, I like Brian and I agree he has shown versatility in his exhibition programs (e.g. Hallelujah, Madeline). But he should be marked based on what he does in competition, and so should everyone else. I really hope Joubert will be able to renew his collaboration with Kurt Browning; I think last year's All For You was different from many of Brian's previous programs and I wish he could have continued in that direction. Rise is fun when performed well, but I don't think it represents any real progress.

 

[Mathman]

The main issue that I can see is that nothing ever happens to the judge who marks in that way. Like a judge who gives -2 for a fall on a jump when the rest have uniformly given -3.

There is actually quite an elaborate procedure for "judging the judges," but, as you say, it is not clear whether or not anything ever happens as a result.

First, as I understand it, the referee holds a meeting of all the judges immediately after the event to go over the scores. I can't find the ISU doicument that talks about the "anomaly" procedure, but it is something like this. For each score on the protocol, if a judge's mark is outside the "corridore" defined by the judges' marks in total, then that score is marked as an "anomaly." I think the corridore is plus or minus three standard deviations.

This is quite a generous spread. On a panel of nine judges, if eight of them give -2 and one judge gives +2, the standard deviation is 1.33 and so the out-of-step judge is only just on the borderline of being outside the corridore. (I assume this "generousity" is deliberate so that judges will not feel intimidated into trying to guess what their colleagues will give out and score accordingly.)

Anyway, IIRC, three anomalies and your name comes up before some sort of ISU judges' oversight committee. The committee reviews the judge's performance for evidence of bias or incompetence. The "accused" is allowed to defend his/her marks and to present evidence (videotapes, etc.) in support of his/her case. If the committee finds just cause, it can "punish" the recalcitrant in various was, like demoting him/her to lower level competitions for a time.

As far as I know, none of this is ever made public, so it is impossible to know whather anything ever comes of this procedure or not.