Brian Joubert's future

[ImaginaryPogue]

seniorita is correct. The second step sequence is level one for all skaters - it's not a levelled element. Just like the spiral sequence in ladies LP.

Joubert clearly has some work to do. The Japanese men are hungry and Chan's getting scores challenge the peaks of hte sport.

And for what it's worth, if you've spent the last three years complaining that the quad is undervalued, it's completely fair to be called on it if you choose not to do it to be clean. I agree, figure skating is strategy and I have no problem with people figuring out the best way to win, though.

 

[herios]

when Joubert "never" goes clean we complain, when he choses to leave out the quad and gives first importance to skate clean, we complain again.
Fs is strategy, if your rival splats in sp then you change your plan accordingly, in the all -about- the- quad era skaters were leaving out the second one when they didnt need it to win, so now they leave also the first.
Isnt the second step sequence(choreo step.) in the program marked level 1 now for allskaters anyway and judges just give Goe?
And his spin, I havent seen the vid, but usually level 1 it was given automatically in the season when the positions didnt count as diffucult variations or not enough turns.

senorita, I am complaoining, because "this trategy" is not a smart one, it could backfire, as it did in Gotheburg, when he was in a very good form and held back. then he complained that Buttle won without a quad. And it could've backfired as well in Tokyo 2007, when Daisuke almost got him, was he not put a hand down in his opening quad would've most likely gave away that title too.
Here obviously wasn't the same risk skating last, but when it becomes a habit, you will fall back on it, almnost all the time. And that will not work on the World stage.

Yes, the second step seq is level 1 all the time, but the other one which has different levels, he's got one level below Amodio. Not good. He has to make a change there, at the Euros, the cushion might not exist.
His closing spin got a level 1. He obviously was already celebrating in his mind and lost his focus to do a good spin there.

 

[anony]

I think there was supposedly something wrong with the size/shape of the rink that affected the quad entry.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I think there was supposedly something wrong with the size/shape of the rink that affected the quad entry.

Maybe as he gets older, he needs bigger rinks to stalk his jumps.

 

[anony]

Maybe as he gets older, he needs bigger rinks to stalk his jumps.

LOL

But I think it was affecting other skaters too.

 

[lavender]

Congrats to Joubert and Amodio. Joubert stated he was still the boss but I don't think so. I don't mind him going for the clean program which I think he needed mentally but based on the long program scores he's not really the boss.:lol. Amodio still won the long and this program isn't really up to par with what he can do.

 

[herios]

I think there was supposedly something wrong with the size/shape of the rink that affected the quad entry.

Did the rink shape / form prevented him to add a double toe behind ANY OF HIS TRIPLES??? And if you leave the quad aside, why not do a 3t/3t instead? Or a 3t/2t like a junior lady....
You basically leave 7 points on the table turning a 4t into a 3t.

All that macho talk about the quad

Don't get me wrong, i wish all the best for him, but he looked quite good in his program I have seen on that link, but I don't like athletes competing not to lose.

 

[Mathman]

Maybe he planned a quad, but when the time came it didn't feel right and he had to sign off with a triple?

 

[gmyers]

Joubert did do a quad in his short program. So he was not like these skaters who save quads for Free Skates only. He really just wanted a very clean free skate and even though he did a quad in the short with all the other jumps to do in the free he just held back. I don't expect that to continue at all!

 

[prettykeys]

And for what it's worth, if you've spent the last three years complaining that the quad is undervalued, it's completely fair to be called on it if you choose not to do it to be clean.

It's my observation that you seem to be spending some time staunchly defending Chan here and there. In addition, there is quite a bit of Joubert criticism here from you. It makes me wonder whether these behaviours are related...

Anyway, your statement that I quoted does not hold up to reason. Joubert, in all likelihood, probably still believes in his original valuation of quads. He probably believes in their value because they are generally more difficult than triple jumps. When a skater is aiming primarily to have a clean skate, one good strategy is to omit elements which are more difficult. Joubert omitted a quad from his LP, which is probably the most difficult element he had as an option to drop, which makes complete logical sense. Thus, no, it is not "fair", nor rational, to "call him out on it."

 

[gmyers]

If he didn't do a quad at all I would be posting "regress for success" "quadless for progress" but he did one in the short. It wasn't a total abondonment so I am just a little conflicted because he did do one - and in the SP where you can really foul yourself up BAD if you mess up on a quad!

 

[pangtongfan]

Imagine a quadless Joubert going up against Chan, LOL! Chan could literally fall 8 times and still beat him (rather than the 4 or 5 times he could and still beat the next best guys in the World today). A clean Joubert with quads couldnt even beat a clean Chan without quads anymore by last year, so just imagine now with Chan having quads, Joubert not doing them, and the judges all of a sudden 5 times more in love with Chan than ever before (even though they loved him already before).

I dont see Joubert anywhere near the podium at Worlds still based on any reports from his Nationals outings. Beating Amodio is no big deal. Amodio isnt a real medal threat this year, and anyway outside of France the result could have easily been different.

 

[prettykeys]

If he didn't do a quad at all I would be posting "regress for success" "quadless for progress" but he did one in the short. It wasn't a total abondonment so I am just a little conflicted because he did do one - and in the SP where you can really foul yourself up BAD if you mess up on a quad!

Yes, missing a quad in the SP can be extremely costly, but the SP is also a little less demanding on stamina/energy, and quads are a little more demanding, so...it doesn't look so quizzical to me. And besides, maybe Joubert did plan a quad toe as an opening jump in the LP, but didn't feel up to it on that day.

My point is, though, is that even perfectly healthy athletes at their peak have their on and off days. It's not hypocritical or flip-floppy if a skater isn't able to skate to their usual standards/ideals every single day, regarding quads or other figure skating elements. It may be that Joubert is losing his sharpness, or perhaps he is going through a hard time... I never really got the sense that he is a tough-tough competitor (in stark contrast to Plushenko, who was mentioned for comparison ). There is something about him that looks somewhat sensitive and fragile. I used to tease him in my mind for being that kind of pretty boy (by my impression), not spitefully, but you know... . Anyway, he is looking like he lacks confidence or full vigour or something, so it's not a surprise that he wouldn't do all the quads he used to. What I don't get is some of the harshness that is being directed at him.

Buttercup, I did not know that he had only one kidney. Kidneys are supposed to have a massive reserve functional capacity, so I don't think this sole fact would affect his overall health too badly, but yeah, physical demands might be more taxing on him, we don't know for sure. Thanks for speaking up.

So...that's all I really had to say about it. I don't know Joubert much and haven't followed him, but he's been around. The drama between him and Buttle and Chan over quads and skating was never controversial to me. Joubert said he felt that quads were undervalued back then. I agreed. Buttle and Chan said that figure skating isn't just about jumps. I agree with them, too. To Chan's credit, he is now incorporating this staple of elite men's figure skating into his arsenal, and he has kept up his overall high level of quality in other areas of figure skating (I remember when some people also claimed that Chan was hypocritical to now do quads and like them, which is also silly reasoning.)

 

[seniorita]

Too bad Larry King just retired or he should have made a show about quadless Joubert I never thought one time he didnt do it in Lp in the last many years of his carrier would be such a deal.
And anyway as season has developed I m pretty sure a clean P Chan is unbeatable anyway, not just for Joubert but for Dai too. I forsee goat species in extinction (evangeline) but still I think Chan might be this dominant till Sochi.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

It's my observation that you seem to be spending some time staunchly defending Chan here and there. In addition, there is quite a bit of Joubert criticism here from you. It makes me wonder whether these behaviours are related...

Anyway, your statement that I quoted does not hold up to reason. Joubert, in all likelihood, probably still believes in his original valuation of quads. He probably believes in their value because they are generally more difficult than triple jumps. When a skater is aiming primarily to have a clean skate, one good strategy is to omit elements which are more difficult. Joubert omitted a quad from his LP, which is probably the most difficult element he had as an option to drop, which makes complete logical sense. Thus, no, it is not "fair", nor rational, to "call him out on it."

Good observation - Joubert's easily my least favourite noteworthy skater currently performing, and Chan - while not my favourite - is my favourite TYPE of skater. But I completely disagree with your overall point.

He called Buttle out for not going for the quad, implying that he (Buttle) played it safe and that he (Joubert) was underrewarded for his technical achievements after the 2008 LP. It was clear from his comments that he felt that a men's champion should have a quad (something he undeniably has, and lets be fair, he landed one in the short program) and that playing it safe itself shouldn't be rewarded. If he believes that, than omitting elements which are more difficult, something he's criticized other skaters for doing, is in fact hypocritical, and it is fair and rational to point that double standard out to him.

Now, lets give Joubert some propers. He's ten years into a senior career of three Olympics, six world medals and a world title. And he's still pushing himself to grow creatively with his two programs this year. The fact that he elected to go clean and omit the quad from his long program at Nationals (easily the most ambitious program of his career) is probably a wise decision - both for his confidence and acquiring the ease of movement that the program requires. I look forward to the growth of this program (and his SP, which in truth is quite good). As Nadine pointed out earlier, this is a guy who's come back from epically disappointing skates to skate lights out (Torino to Calgary; Vancouver to Torino), and it's probably neither wise nor fair to write him off.

 

[prettykeys]

He called Buttle out for not going for the quad, implying that he (Buttle) played it safe and that he (Joubert) was underrewarded for his technical achievements after the 2008 LP.

Yes.

It was clear from his comments that he felt that a men's champion should have a quad (something he undeniably has, and lets be fair, he landed one in the short program)

Yes.

...and that playing it safe itself shouldn't be rewarded.

I would contest this interpretation of Joubert's opinion. I feel it is overreaching.

If he believes that,

Well, I already said I disagreed, but let's continue for hypothetical's sake.

...than omitting elements which are more difficult, something he's criticized other skaters for doing, is in fact hypocritical, and it is fair and rational to point that double standard out to him.

No, it's still not hypocritical at all.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL221630820080322

Read his quotes, and let's pretend we were interviewing Joubert today so we could compare his opinions.

"I am still disappointed (following the free skate) because Jeffrey had the perfect competition -- he made no mistakes -- but he did not try a quad jump,"

Today we could ask him, "Did you have a quad jump in this recent competition?" (Yes, he did. There is nothing to contradict the above quote.)

"The new judging system is like that -- it's better to do simple and clean (jumps) than to try something difficult... We need to give more points for the quad jumps for the future."

We could ask him whether he still likes quads and believes male programs/skaters should be able to do, or at least attempt, them. (He may still say yes.)

We could ask Joubert if he believes his LP program would have been better with a quad. (He may say yes.)

As far as I can tell, a way that Joubert could properly be called a hypocrite on the quad issue is if he was victorious in a competition over a similarly styled skater who did a quad when Joubert didn't and stated that he was rightly victorious. Or, if between two close competitors, he believes the one without the quad deserves to win over the one with.

Joubert's not the one giving himself the gold medal here. The fact of this outcome does not make his attitude, or outlook on skating hypocritical. One can play a game one doesn't fully approve of. Or, one can be the beneficiary of an outcome and still wish/intend he/she would do better.

 

[Mathman]

I don't see the "hypocritical" at all. Joubert almost always does a quad -- sometimes two -- in every program. This time it wasn't there. Where's the hypocrisy?

Did Joubert say afterward, "It is not necessary to have a quad. It is more important to do a clean and balanced program, and this is quite properly reflected in the IJS?"

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Fair enough

 

[Jaana]

Did Joubert say afterward, "It is not necessary to have a quad. It is more important to do a clean and balanced program, and this is quite properly reflected in the IJS?"

I think that for a skater who is not about 80 % consistent with quad at practices (what ever the reasons for that), it is not wise to try to jump it in major competitions. It is of course obvious that the skater loses the points he could get from jumping the quad faultlessly. And because of that I don´t see leaving the quad out as playing it safe, it is just common sense, in my opinion. On the other hand the skater (like e.g. Buttle) compensates the lack of quad with doing all the other technical elements of the programme really well. And Buttle´s PCS definetely should have been higher than Joubert´s. Of course Buttle deserved to win the technical marks (in spite of lack of quad), but he definetely should have won also in PCS over Joubert.

 

[amber68]

And Buttle´s PCS definetely should have been higher than Joubert´s. Of course Buttle deserved to win the technical marks (in spite of lack of quad), but he definetely should have won also in PCS over Joubert.

When did Buttle deserve to win the technical marks? All the time?
And Joubert never skated better than Buttle to deserve better PCS?