"empty" is a term as meaningless as "wonky" Read so much of all the moves people hated about his performances! So was it "empty" or filled with horrible moves? Well the judges were all insane and that is why the system had to be changes around their insane opinions to value jumps or give jumps equal value to spins steps and PCS. Like step sequences had to be reduced in value and quads increased in value because the judges were going nuts with their devaluing of jumps. SO much so that the Olympics champions jumps in mens could be all triples breaking the 3 Olympics in a row trend. It's just so crazy.
Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?
- Thread starter Mao88
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Jammers said:
So "wonky" doesn't cut it anymore - let's come up with something new.
Empty? Empty as in 'not many transitions'? Yeah, that's true. That's exactly one out of five PCS categories. That alone is supposed to defend Evan winning? Lol.
The problem wasn't just that Evan didn't have a quad. If Buttle would have won OGM, the outcry wouldn't have been even close to the same level. The problem is Evan wasn't outstanding in anything and his only strength was that he didn't make any mistakes. Evan shouldn't have been able to beat Plushenko in TES: no quad + the ugliest 3A's of the whole competition. That he got massive +GOE on those jumps stinks like hell. If you want to talk about PCS: CH was generic, his SS are good but far from outstanding, his performance quality is okay but he never seemed to even know there was music playing in the backround. Evan was overscored from the start - he beat Daisuke in PCS. Evan beat Daisuke in Interpretation. Worst joke ever.
If Plush wants to disagree with Evan's win, he has all the right to. I don't think he would have said anything if Daisuke without the fall on his 4F would have beat him. But even without that fall, the numbers look as if Daisuke might not have beaten Evan anyway. Urks.
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Not exactly news breaking but Evan and Evgeni had the exact same pcs in the Lp.
And it has been long ago discussed that the result was determined because Plush had no actual lead in the sp, the Lp results were fine. If he had a lead a la Chan in the sp, Lp difference wouldnt matter that much.
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- Jan 25, 2013
Evan (8.40) didn't beat Daisuke (8.65) in interpretation in the FS, even when Daisuke had many more errors.
As far as Evan beating Plushenko in TES, he should have been able to (and was able to) because he made use of the 10% bonus whereas Plushenko did not, and he did a 3-jump combo whereas Plushenko did not, and had higher levels on spins/footwork. Plushenko's BV as such was 75.03 just a hair over Lysacek's 74.93. If you want to talk GOE, Evan was marked down for his 3A's (0s and +1s on the first one, and -1's and 0's on the second one), but so was Plushenko his first way-off-axis 3A (-1's, 0s, 1s). Plushenko's shaky lutzes were both off-axis too, and resulted in not as high GOE as he's capable of.
As far as other PCS categories for Plushenko's FS:
- his Transitions as you acknowledged was poor
- his Choreography was also poor ... good ice coverage, but not much difficulty or originality, and the proportion was poor with having so many jumping passes crammed in the first half (this was acknowledged by having only the 5th best choreography)
- his Skating Skills were overmarked, IMO, (he scored 2nd highest of the men) in that a lot of his skating was two-footed and there was little mastery of edges -- the only time he skated in the clockwise direction was the 7 seconds going into his first 3Z and some parts of his footwork, so about a total of 12 seconds in a 4.5 minute program.
- as far as Interpretation, it was one of the better categories since there were moments of expression (usually in his footwork, but not in between elements) but not much musicality (augh, the hip thrusting)... his Interpretation certainly wasn't better than Lambiel's or Takahashi's, though... it really irks me that the first minute of his program you can tell on his face that he's already thinking about the quad instead of actually trying to establish the tango nature of the program (I hate when skaters just power into their first jump, like some of Ando's freeskates where she literally just skated from a standstill into her 3Z).
- Performance is the other category I think he did well in, because he was pretty much clean in terms of jumps (save for off-axis air positions and some scratchy landings), and there were moments of expression (though not throughout the performance and there wasn't much variety/contrast), and the program itself was energetic and entertaining. But in terms of complexity and difficulty (jumps excluded) it was really subpar compared to several of the other skaters. It was pretty much an impressive jump-fest, with a couple moments of expression thrown in there. Worthy of an Olympic title, in general certainly, but not given the rules and criteria that he should have paid closer attention to.
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- Jun 27, 2012
Of course, the SP's points were crucial, the LP results were correct.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/owg10_Men_SP_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/owg10_Men_FS_Scores.pdf
Stojko's opinion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW1-brO6O10
The standard score for transitionless short programs was 6 or above and plushenko got 5.00! So obviously in the short program there were judges who did think plushenko should Be in the 20's after the sp was over. This is where coming back just in the Olympic season hurt him because transitionless skaters were not given two 5.00 but like 6 or 7 if they competed in worlds from 2006 to 2009! 5.00 happened in first place and then in 24th place. So the two 5.00 judges were all about keeping plushenko down in the sp. In 2010 his sp was much better than the 2006 one- look at the 4/3 in the 2006 sp and compare it to the one in 2010. 2010 was much better. Same thing with the fs. Much better in 2010. The problem was the 2008 and 2009 worlds. He should have taken the message from the post 2006 olympics and stopped doing quads did a 3/5 layout of jumps and did lots of moves for no reason and focused on spins and steps.obviously I'd you are changing plushenkos programs and adding 3/5 jump layout you also want to remove quads. You want to make his programs like buttles or Lysaceks or Oda or chan.
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Yeah, I actually really liked his SP... he really didn't deserve Transitions scores that low. He certainly didn't have as many as some of the other guys, but had a nice exit to the 3A (one that Tuktamysheva does, too), and because it was a SP, all the elements were back to back so it's not like he could have incorporated a ton of transitions in between. He should have had higher marks in the SP, for sure, but really what ended up losing it for him were minor errors in his FS and a poor attention to maximizing his points. I think he simply assumed that if he lands all the jumps and does the quads he'd win no matter what.
The best way to maximize points and win was to not do any quads and so all triples. Make everything in the tech score more even. Not go overboard on jumps and do a quad. Obviously eliminate the quad, move to a 3/5 layout and work on spins and steps. Not just level 3 or 4 but +3 goe. The Strategy of quad triple was wrong. They ignored the past two world championships and the 2009-2010 gp season completely other than take note the winners weren't doing quads like it was leaving points on the table that plushenko could get! No they were maximizing points potential by not doing quads. Because they capped their jumps at triples and then moved quad points to spins and steps and all pcs and the judges loved it! They loved the quad being eliminated.
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I actually liked Lysacek's LP. He didn't do a quad, his triple Axel technique is not exactly textbook, and as for musicality, as has been pointed out at length, he is not Daisuke Takahashi or Stephane Lambiel.
But he came out and skated like the gates of paradise were before him and the hounds of hell behind,
Same with Sarah Hughes in 2002. Sarah wasn't the best skater in the world. She wasn't the second best. Was she third ahead of Sasha Cohen and Maria Butyrskaya? --I don't know. But she skated like she wanted to win an Olympic gold medal. :yes:
I hope someone does the same in Sochi.
But he came out and skated like the gates of paradise were before him and the hounds of hell behind,
Same with Sarah Hughes in 2002. Sarah wasn't the best skater in the world. She wasn't the second best. Was she third ahead of Sasha Cohen and Maria Butyrskaya? --I don't know. But she skated like she wanted to win an Olympic gold medal. :yes:
I hope someone does the same in Sochi.
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- Jan 25, 2013
Well, the best way to maximize points was to earn good GOE on elements you're capable of doing. Evan got generally higher GOE than Plushenko on many elements in the FS and was able to make up for the discrepancy for having no quad. Some more FS stats:
-Evan's 3Z-3T which was beautifully executed (got 11.4 points for an element worth 10 points) which was only 3.2 points less than Plushenko's 4T-3T where he was forward on the 4T and only got 0.8 GOE bonus for a 13.8 point element (14.6 total)
- Evan's higher levels earned him more marks on spins (11.8 points to Plushenko's 10.64 points) and footwork (9.3 points to Plushenko's 8.4 points)
-Plushenko's 3A & 3A+2T (17.24 points) got 0.45 points less than Evan's (17.69 points) because of Evan's 2nd half 3A, and because of Plushenko's deduction on his first 3A
- Plushenko's 3Z-2T was worth 8.03 points (to Evan's 8.00 points 3Z on its own) because of the scrappy landing.
- Even Plushenko's 3L got only 5.6 points to Evan's 6.5 point 3L in the 2nd half
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- Jun 3, 2008
that's why i think his sp costed him, daisuke had an awesome sp that I would put first and then evgeni's, he was the only one with 4-3, yeah quad is not everything but this was a big risk for the so called technical program.Lets not forget the whole difference for the gold was 1+ points. So the littliest counted. With that sp Plush had no advantage or room for error in the Lp.
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some quotes:
Stojko said-"If you take out a quad, it makes the whole program at least 50% easier to do."
Christy Krall "The quad four revolution : you need up to 300 pounds of centrifugal force to hold in their arms and legs when they jump, And when they come down, the force on the landing leg is up to 8 à 14 times their body weight,.. punishing their bone, muscles, tendons…"
P. Chan:
“I kind of took the side that if you did a clean program without the quad you can still win and you can be comfortable,” “But to be honest, it’s a whole different level to be doing quads, a whole different level of confidence.”
“I understand now. I’m on the other side of the wall. It’s a level of excitement I’m talking about. You just elevate your program to that level of excitement where everyone else who has done quads, like Plushenko, has that excitement."
Tarasova:
“They ‘buried’ Zhenya before anything could be done. He should have won the short program with a 4 to 5 point lead, in my opinion. A short program is a technical one. And a 4+3 combination changes everything here because it shows that you’re capable of doing more than others,"
Rodnina:
“Evgeni’s silver medal is a colossal result. The result achieved by him, his coach, choreographer and his spouse. But if the Federation had stepped in, he would have taken home the gold,”
Plushy " Metal on ice"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrR_Rpyh5uE
Stojko said-"If you take out a quad, it makes the whole program at least 50% easier to do."
Christy Krall "The quad four revolution : you need up to 300 pounds of centrifugal force to hold in their arms and legs when they jump, And when they come down, the force on the landing leg is up to 8 à 14 times their body weight,.. punishing their bone, muscles, tendons…"
P. Chan:
“I kind of took the side that if you did a clean program without the quad you can still win and you can be comfortable,” “But to be honest, it’s a whole different level to be doing quads, a whole different level of confidence.”
“I understand now. I’m on the other side of the wall. It’s a level of excitement I’m talking about. You just elevate your program to that level of excitement where everyone else who has done quads, like Plushenko, has that excitement."
Tarasova:
“They ‘buried’ Zhenya before anything could be done. He should have won the short program with a 4 to 5 point lead, in my opinion. A short program is a technical one. And a 4+3 combination changes everything here because it shows that you’re capable of doing more than others,"
Rodnina:
“Evgeni’s silver medal is a colossal result. The result achieved by him, his coach, choreographer and his spouse. But if the Federation had stepped in, he would have taken home the gold,”
Plushy " Metal on ice"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrR_Rpyh5uEI don't know what "scrappy" landing means? What was the problem with it? Was it worse than Lysaceks landing on his 2nd 3a?
Maximizing points was not about doing what you are capable of doing the best. It's about not doing all you are capable of but rather choosing jumps that are smart to do in a smart place. Plushenko was capable of doing a quad but shouldn't have done one because they were not omg Amazing anymore even though in 2010 they were better than the ones In 2006 especially in the sp. The smart thing to do was go below what you are capable of do easier things the best to get goe. So my lp for plushenko would have no quad - neither the sp would have one. His lp would have looked like his 2005 worlds qualifying skate where he put s 3a in the second half. He showed total cop savvy in his 2005 worlds qualifying skate but when he could do the quad again he stopped being so savvy. And the rules in 2010 demanded he be smarter because he wasnt so in shape. So he stops all quads does 3/5 layout and spends quad time on spins and steps. You don't do what your capable of - you don't take risks- not in Vancouver you didn't!! He was capable of the quad but people were like "oh he's coming down so heavy! There's little flow out! Its so ugly I shouldn't count!" so he should have taken it out. 3lz/3toe would have been smarter for him.
I actually liked Lysacek's LP. He didn't do a quad, his triple Axel technique is not exactly textbook, and as for musicality, as has been pointed out at length, he is not Daisuke Takahashi or Stephane Lambiel.
But he came out and skated like the gates of paradise were before him and the hounds of hell behind,
Same with Sarah Hughes in 2002. Sarah wasn't the best skater in the world. She wasn't the second best. Was she third ahead of Sasha Cohen and Maria Butyrskaya? --I don't know. But she skated like she wanted to win an Olympic gold medal. :yes:
I hope someone does the same in Sochi.
Hughes was extremely bold- lysacek was ultra ultra conservative. There is no comparison between lysacek and hughes or Lipinski. He was nothing like at all a skater Running from hell? Are you being sarcastic?
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- Jun 21, 2003
I agree. Look at how many times Patrick Chan has landed his two quads, only to trip up on easier elements later in the program. Or Jeremy Abbott -- by falling on his opening quad attempt the whole program goes down the tube. If he left out the quad he could probably land his other jumps and score pretty well.
Ftank Carroll, in his interview with Jennifer Kirk and David Leash, ws asked whether Lysacek (should he return to competition) would need to do multiple quads to keep up with the standard set by the other guys. He said, no, he doesn't need multiple quads, he needs one quad done beautifully.
I think Frank Carroll is right. If someone can land two quads in the short and four in the long, good for him. But if the rest of the program suffers he will give back a lot of those points.
What does Rodnina think the Russian Federation should have "stepped in" and done?
gmyers}Are you being sarcastic?[/quote said:
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- Jun 27, 2012
Two quad -too much risk. I wonder how many quads will be in the Olympic programs. In 2002 wasn't question, had to do two quads in LP.... In 2006 one quad was enough to win....
I have no idea, what does Rodnina think... maybe should have protested?
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- Jan 25, 2013
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtY1CuAbLgs&t=4m5s A scrappy landing means a landing that is still not as bad as a fall/stepout/hand-down but still scratchy and poor -- in this case, Plushenko landed on his inside edge (and had an off-axis air position) which rightfully lead to -GOE.
It wasn't that Plushenko wasn't credited for doing quads. It was his quads that actually elevated him over the field... if you had Lysacek/Takahashi/Chan/Lambiel/Plushenko all do programs without quads, and only 3A's, if every one of them skated cleanly, Plushenko would have been 4th or 5th because his program itself was less difficult and the other elements were inferior to those guys. Really, what earned Plushenko the silver was including the quad, and I don't think he lost the gold because he had them (I think he just expected to win the gold if he had them and assumed things like if he skated clean he would get PCS marks that were mountains higher than the rest of the field).
But that was a mistake. Because you bash and relentless attack the quality of all the jumps and lots do. So if Plushenko didn't do a quad and expend that energy on quads maybe all the jumps would have been better overall. That would not have been a guarantee of course but he spends the energy and mental and physical strength to do a quad triple but what if that had not been a factor. He does a 3lz 3toe and 3axel 3 toe and gets all +3 GOE? Then he does all the rest of the jumps in the second half of the program and he gets the bonus and +GOE on all them too? That is what the whole idea of him being smart would have meant eliminating the quad triple from his free skate and maybe the SP as well. He does a quad but most say it is not perfect and amazing and give him zero or negative GOE on it so then it worth less. And the energy spend on that means he tilts in the air but has a fine landing on his first 3A? What if he never did that quad triple? People are totally discounting his quad triple as an element that was worth doing but it effects everything else. The quad may have lead to silver but eliminating it and doing triples better was good for GOLD! Going for gold was the point and maybe doing no quads was better for that goal. Worlds 2008 and 2009 and then the Olympics 2010 showed quads done was stupid! Quads did not elevate him over the field because even though he did them they were not COP smart! They did not lead to even a lead on TES! So no quad training means more training for spins and maybe halfway point bonus jumps. There was a theme and a trend he misread the theme and trend. He does quads but they don't get the points because theyre not OMG amazing! and don't get GOE! So he has program frontloaded to do 4/3 3A 3A+2t so he can use the adrenaline created for the big jumps but even though they are done and nearly textbook he has slight tilts in the air so they get some negative GOE as well. He was dumb to include quads. Misread the system.
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- Aug 31, 2003
Olympic competitions are absolutely different level then Worlds, I would assume to skate clean max one quad plus two 3A in LP. IF quad value is not much higher than in 2010, we might see some skaters play safe in SP and go without quad.
To win gold in Sochi, Plushenko can afford couple mistakes, for Chan he needs Plushenko to have more then 2-3 mistakes. I wish they skate back to back so everybody see the difference!
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