Can Sasha pull a "Michelle Kwan" and get on the Olympic team?

[BlackAxel]

Can Sasha pull a "Michelle Kwan" and get on the Olympic team?

Overall I havent been happy this season with the performances by the ladies. The only ladies that have really been able to prove themselves have been Yu-Na (TEB performance) and Akiko Suzuki (Cup of China and GPF). Even Ashley has done a good job as well. But what about Sasha Cohen?

When I heard that she would be pulling out of Trophee Bompard, I was upset since it would have been the first time in 3 years that she would be back skating in competition. I decided to take Hersh's view and respect her injury as a reason of her withdrawal. However, after she pulled out of Skate America as well, I could not help but side a little more with what Jenny Kirk said about her fear of losing. For her to drop out of 2 grand prix competitions really made me wonder if Sasha is ready for the Olympics and how she would make the top 2 spots at Nationals.

So my question is whether the USFSA can give Sasha a spot on the Olympic team a la Michelle Kwan even with the shortcomings with the US women?

 

[Sylvia]

So my question is whether the USFSA can give Sasha a spot on the Olympic team a la Michelle Kwan even with the shortcomings with the US women?

I assume that Cohen will only be allowed to petition USFS for a spot on the Olympic team if she is legimately injured and cannot compete at Nationals in Spokane. Otherwise, I think she will be out of luck. Kwan at least competed at Nationals/Worlds from 2003-2005.

 

[BlackAxel]

I assume that Cohen will only be allowed to petition USFS for a spot on the Olympic team if she is legimately injured and cannot compete at Nationals in Spokane. Otherwise, I think she will be out of luck. Kwan at least competed at Nationals/Worlds from 2003-2005.

That is true, but looking at the current ensemble of US women, I think that if Sasha were to petition for a spot, it will actually have some grounds. The only two ladies that I think have truly garnered a spot on the Olympic team are Ashley Wanger and Rachel Flatt. The only thing is that experience isnt on their side and thus they may be easily replaced by a veteran, Sasha Cohen.

 

[MKFSfan]

I really doubt Sasha will be placed on the team based on a medical bye. There is a huge difference between 2006 Michelle and 2010 Sasha. In 2006, Michelle had last competed less than a year before. She was the 2005 US National Champion and had ended up 3rd in the SP and LP at the 2005 Worlds. As Sylvia said, despite injury in 2005-06, Michelle was still a fixture for the quad leading up to the 2006 Games. Sasha has not competed since 2006 Worlds and who knows where she is now. If she is not at Nationals, I do not think it would be right to place her on the team.

Maybe if there were 3 spots, a medical bye from Sasha would be considered. But taking into consideration Sasha elected not to compete last year to help earn the 3 spots, I do not think she has grounds to ask for one of the two spots.

 

[Tonichelle]

I didn't agree with the decision to allow Michelle on the team four years ago, and even though I truly enjoy watching Sasha skate I think it would be just as wrong to let her go to the olympics solely because she's Sasha Cohen.

 

[janetfan]

I really doubt Sasha will be placed on the team based on a medical bye. There is a huge difference between 2006 Michelle and 2010 Sasha. In 2006, Michelle had last competed less than a year before. She was the 2005 US National Champion and had ended up 3rd in the SP and LP at the 2005 Worlds. As Sylvia said, despite injury in 2005-06, Michelle was still a fixture for the quad leading up to the 2006 Games. Sasha has not competed since 2006 Worlds and who knows where she is now. If she is not at Nationals, I do not think it would be right to place her on the team.

Maybe if there were 3 spots, a medical bye from Sasha would be considered. But taking into consideration Sasha elected not to compete last year to help earn the 3 spots, I do not think she has grounds to ask for one of the two spots.

I think you are right but it doesn't feel right to blame Sasha for USA only having two spots. If that was the case then we could blame Alissa and also Kimmie for her poor showing at '08 Worlds when we lost the 3rd spot heading into '09.

Also, to be fair, did Michelle compete in the year leading up to Torino? Was she skating in any GP's or at Natls? I don;t think so.

Going back a year I don't think Michelle competed in GP events either but she did manage to win Natls. But she did not medal at Wolrds. So heading into Torino Michelle had not quite been the Michelle of the past. She had not skated that much in two years and had not competed the season heading into Torino.

I think it was fine that Michelle petitioned for a spot on the Olympic team and was glad when her petition was granted.

I think Sasha has to show up and skate very well at Natls or she should not be considered for a spot on the team. Realistically, if she can't beat Rachael, Ashley, Mirai and Alissa she probably will have no chance to win a medal in Vancouver.

If Sasha wins or finishes 2nd at Natls I think she will have earned a spot on the team. But just as Michelle wasn't able to skate in Torino, the 1st alternate shoud be in very good shape and be ready to replace Sasha should she have to withdraw for medical reasons.

 

[Tinymavy15]

I doubt if USFSA would allow her to do that. We have only two spots as it is, and that would mean all the ladies would be skating for 1 spot at nationals. Michelle had been competing every year before 2006...Sasha has not competed in 4 years. If she wants to go to the Olympics, she will have to skate at nationals and skate well. That is her one and only chance.

 

[gsrossano]

Given the rules of the rules of the international committee, Sasha's absence from competition for 4 years, and the requirements of the Amateur Sports Act the chance of this is pretty much zero. It would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for Sasha to enter the Olympic kingdom in that way.

 

[MKFSfan]

Thank you, Tinymavy and gsrosanno, for putting my thoughts out more eloquently than I did.

Janetfan, nowhere did I say it is Sasha was to blame that the US only has 2 spots. Back in 2005, Michelle and Sasha ensured that the US would have 3 spots for the following year's Olympic and Worlds teams, therefore when Michelle petitioned to be on the 2006 Olympic team, there was evidence to support she deserved that 3rd spot. The fact Michelle did not compete in the fall of 2005 has no bearing on that. Had Sasha competed in 2009 and made the Worlds team and then, say for arguments sake, ended up 4th, her placing combined with Rachael's placing would have been good enough to allow the US to send three Ladies to Vancouver. But because that did not happen, there are only two spots.

Before this year, the USFSA didn't put much emphasize on the GP events when selecting the team, so Michelle not competing in the fall of 2005 had no bearing on the team selection process. Now the rules claim they will take into consideration the results of Nationals, 4CC, GPF, Worlds first and foremost. If Sasha does not compete at Nationals, what justification does she have in asking for a bye?

 

[janetfan]

Thank you, Tinymavy and gsrosanno, for putting my thoughts out more eloquently than I did.

Janetfan, nowhere did I say it is Sasha was to blame that the US only has 2 spots.
Before this year, the USFSA didn't put much emphasize on the GP events when selecting the team, so Michelle not competing in the fall of 2005 had no bearing on the team selection process. Now the rules claim they will take into consideration the results of Nationals, 4CC, GPF, Worlds first and foremost. If Sasha does not compete at Nationals, what justification does she have in asking for a bye?

I thought you said Sasha should have competed the year before to help us get a third spot.

AFAIK, Natls will still count for about 80% of the selection criteria for the Natl team. The change is to give US Skating a little wiggle room.

I only said Sasha should make the team if she wins or comes in second. I clearly said she does not deserve a spot otherwise.

 

[Mathman]

...the requirements of the Amateur Sports Act...

What is the Amateur Sports Act?

 

[MKFSfan]

I agree that as long as Sasha is 1 or 2 at Nationals, she should go to the Olympics. If she is 3rd...it really depends who is 1-2. If 1-2 are Rachael and Ashley, I really think hey have to be the team, even if Sasha is 3rd, but that is not for me to decide.

The part of your post that had me defensive and discussing 2009 Worlds is when you brought Michelle up. I just feel there are two entirely different scenarios because Michelle did help secure three spots for the 2006 Olympics and had participated in both the 2005 Nats and Worlds. Sasha is so far removed from that scenario and if she is to skip 2010 Nats and still ask for a bye I think she should be turned away. But again, JMO, and despite who is named to the team for whatever reason, I will still root for them. I understand you appear to take the same stance, but I've been detecting quite a defensive tone in your posts where Sasha is considered as of late.

 

[Mathman]

About MKFSfan's point, I believe that traditionally there was sort of an understanding that "the place you save is your own." Like if you medaled at Worlds and because of that the U.S. got an extra spot on the Olympic pr World team, then you would be given extra consideration for that spot.

Maybe this idea has fallen by the wayside now.

 

[janetfan]

About MKFSfan's point, I believe that traditionally there was sort of an understanding that "the place you save is your own." Like if you medaled at Worlds and because of that the U.S. got an extra spot on the Olympic pr World team, then you would be given extra consideration for that spot.

Maybe this idea has fallen by the wayside now.

It didn't work for Johnny last year.

I don't think it is a very wise rule - or a rule at all.

 

[gsrossano]

What is the Amateur Sports Act?

This is a federal law passed in the 1978 (full name now is Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act) that regulates NGBs in the U.S., and provides certain legal protections to athletes. Among other things it requires athletes have at least 20% of the voting power within an NGB, and governs the rights of athletes when being selected for World and Olympic teams. It basically says that selection to an Olympic team must follow the order of finish in the selection competition or the NGB better has a superb reason why not.

If order of finish is not followed the athletes kept off the team can sue the NGB to get on, and force compliance with order of finish. So if Sasha was put on the team without having competed, or placed too low to make the team, the girl affected would be able to sue to get on the team, and would almost certainly win her case -- since helping out a failed comeback attempt after a four year absence with no competition record other than Nationals would most likely not be viewed as a superb reason.

Basically the law says the NGBs can't screw the athletes when it comes to selecting the Olympic team.

 

[janetfan]

This is a federal law passed in the 1978 (full name now is Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act) that regulates NGBs in the U.S., and provides certain legal protections to athletes. Among other things it requires athletes have at least 20% of the voting power within an NGB, and governs the rights of athletes when being selected for World and Olympic teams. It basically says that selection to an Olympic team must follow the order of finish in the selection competition or the NGB better has a superb reason why not.

If order of finish is not followed the athletes kept off the team can sue the NGB to get on, and force compliance with order of finish. So if Sasha was put on the team without having competed, or placed too low to make the team, the girl affected would be able to sue to get on the team, and would almost certainly win her case -- since helping out a failed comeback attempt after a four year absence with no competition record other than Nationals would most likely not be viewed as a superb reason.

Basically the law says the NGBs can't screw the athletes when it comes to selecting the Olympic team.

Might this have been a law used by Harding's lawyer when US Skating tried to remove her from the Olympic team after she won Natls?

I also wonder if Alissa and Mirai placed 1 and 2 and Natls if US Skating has the legal authority to bump either of them for Rachael, Sasha or Ashley.

Alissa and Mirai have been competing and both happen to be former Natl Champions.

 

[MKFSfan]

It didn't work for Johnny last year.

I don't think it is a very wise rule - or a rule at all.

Yes, Johnny did help secure 3 spots at the 2008 Worlds for 2009 Worlds. However a 5th place at 2009 Nationals Johnny didn't petition to be placed on the 2009 Worlds team. And the rule changing about how the selection process works was amended this year, to go into effect for the 2010 Olys/Worlds teams.

 

[gsrossano]

Might this have been a law used by Harding's lawyer when US Skating tried to remove her from the Olympic tema after she won Natls?.

Yes, since at the time there was no legal proof that she was involved, there was no legally compelling reason to remove her from the team.

I also wonder if Alissa and Mirai placed 1 and 2 and Natls if US Skating has the legal authority to bump either of them for Rachael, Sasha or Ashley..

Very limited. U.S. rules have a little wiggle room in selecting the team, but if Rachael, Sasha, Ashley skate, place below the top two, and that's all there is to it; no, the team will be selected by order of finish.

Alissa and Mirai have been competing and both happen to be former natl Champions.

There would have to be an additional reason more compelling than that. For example, Alissa is CURRENT national champion. If she won the short this year and had to withdraw due to injury, she could petition to get on the team anyway, and it might be considered. But if she just skates poorly, tough luck, her season is over.

 

[herios]

Overall I havent been happy this season with the performances by the ladies. The only ladies that have really been able to prove themselves have been Yu-Na (TEB performance) and Akiko Suzuki (Cup of China and GPF). Even Ashley has done a good job as well. But what about Sasha Cohen?
So my question is whether the USFSA can give Sasha a spot on the Olympic team a la Michelle Kwan even with the shortcomings with the US women?

What for? Do you really think she can do flips, lutzes (with correct edge) and loops?. Give me a break. When I am seeing it, i will believe it.

 

[janetfan]

Yes, since at the time there was no legal proof that she was involved, there was no legally compelling reason to remove her from the team.

Very limited. U.S. rules have a little wiggle room in selecting the team, but if Rachael, Sasha, Ashley skate, place below the top two, and that's all there is to it; no, the team will be selected by order of finish.

.

Thankyou gsrossano. I just shared some of this info over at the "mid-season report" thread - but they are convinced that the National team will be picked by GP results, 4CC, Worlds, Jr Worlds and Natls.