3loop+3loop. How can u do 3l(f)utz+3l(f)utz?
Caroline and Marai have to WAIT!
- Thread starter Tinymavy15
- Start date
3loop+3loop. How can u do 3l(f)utz+3l(f)utz?
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I said 'by age 16'. Most girls complete their physical development before then. I'm 42 and grew most when I was 15. The news has been full of reports of girls physically maturing earlier, but that does not mean they are emotionally mature.
Get off your own nationalistic high horse before making those ridiculous accusations.
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2004
The problem is that the rules don't say that youngsters can't practice the jumps, though. Or put them in competition. I'm definitely not saying that the age minimum is bad, I think that there are good reasons for it, but one thing it is not going to do is reduce injuries, because the kids are still going to work the 3/3s, the triple axels, etc.
Female athletes can achieve puberty later than other girls...I don't understand why someone wants an "upper age limit." There are plenty of older girls who are perfectly capable of competiting with the jumping beans. For example, I think that Shizuka Arakawa would be able to compete with them. She still has her 3/3's.
Problem is that Lipinski probably still would have blown her hip out practicing 3 loop-3 loop -- just that under today's rules, she'd have done so in junior events and never had a chance at winning the Olympics or senior worlds.
Are the juniors who aren't eligible for senior competition not doing the tough jumps? Are there rules that say a triple axel or a triple loop-triple loop is illegal in the junior competitions? No. Are the junior skaters limited in travel, number of competitions, etc? Not that I am aware of. They travel all over the world, they do myriad events, they are doing 6- and 7-triple performances with triple-triples and triple axels, quads. Exactly how are they being protected? The junior ranks have no limits on triples, quads, biellmanns, etc., that damage young (and older) bodies. They junior circuit is highly competitive and if you want to succeed, you have to do pretty much as much technical difficulty as you'd have to on the senior circuit.
I'm all for "protecting" young athletes to try to keep them from damaging their bodies and/or their psyches when they're so young and vulnerable, but I fail to see where the ISU is doing that. All the ISU rules do it bar certain athletes from senior competition because of their age. Often, they never make it to seniors (in a big way) because they've burnt themselves out and/or injured themselves too badly before they ever get to the senior level because they're pushing themselves to win junior events against others who are doing triple axels, triple-triples, endless Biellmanns, etc.
If the ISU would come up with some rules that really showed it was concerned about protecting young athletes, I wouldn't have a problem with age limits. As it is, the age rules seem very random and stupid and, since the youngsters have their own championships and can compete in senior GP events even if they're not age-eligible for Worlds and Olympics, the age rules only lead to the sport being even more confusing to the public -- like this last Olympics, when the public was bombarded with the idea that the "best" skater (Mao -- who was, after all, GP champion) wasn't even at the Olympics or worlds. Boy, that sure sounds like a "legitimate" sport, one that bars its best athlete from its biggest events because its "veteran" participants don't want to have to face the youngsters. (I know, that isn't necessarily true, but it's what it can look like to the general public, since Mao WAS allowed to compete in the senior GP final.)
Puberty is not a one-step process. Many girls don't become completely mature physically until their late teens. One of my girlfriends in college was Audrey-Hepburn skinny at 18 and then between 19 and 20 she completely "bloomed" and became a Salma Hayek.
The same thing happened to Sarah Hughes---when she won the OGM at 16 she was quite thin, but within a year her body had completely changed, and by 19 she was almost unrecognizable and wasn't at all the same skater.
Irina Slutskaya had several great seasons starting in 1995, when she won Junior Worlds at 16; 1996, when she won bronze at Worlds and 1998, when she won World silver. But at 19 she had a growth spurt and gained weight and began to struggle with her jumps, and she was left off the 1999 World team. She eventually adjusted to her new body, got control of her weight, and began her long rivalry with Michelle Kwan in 2000, when she was 21.
Miki Ando went through a similar period of adjustment (unfortunately) during the Olympic season and she struggled with her weight and her jumps. Cynthia Phaneuf, who had a breakout season from 2003-2004, is in the midst of a comeback. She grew something like 4 inches, gained weight, had ankle problems, and lost many of the harder triples. It remains to be seen if she will ever regain all of her lost skills.
The same thing happened to Sarah Hughes---when she won the OGM at 16 she was quite thin, but within a year her body had completely changed, and by 19 she was almost unrecognizable and wasn't at all the same skater.
Irina Slutskaya had several great seasons starting in 1995, when she won Junior Worlds at 16; 1996, when she won bronze at Worlds and 1998, when she won World silver. But at 19 she had a growth spurt and gained weight and began to struggle with her jumps, and she was left off the 1999 World team. She eventually adjusted to her new body, got control of her weight, and began her long rivalry with Michelle Kwan in 2000, when she was 21.
Miki Ando went through a similar period of adjustment (unfortunately) during the Olympic season and she struggled with her weight and her jumps. Cynthia Phaneuf, who had a breakout season from 2003-2004, is in the midst of a comeback. She grew something like 4 inches, gained weight, had ankle problems, and lost many of the harder triples. It remains to be seen if she will ever regain all of her lost skills.
Totally agree. I think the age limits are a must. Aside from all of the health and maturity considerations, frankly, I want to watch a ladies championship, not a little girls championship. While I find juniors interesting occasionally, I'm far more interested in the seniors competition. I'm one who hates all those "cute kids do such and such" shows on TV. And gymnastics freaks me the heck out with all the tiny little, often expressionless automatons in the ranks. Too much pressure can destroy adults, let alone little kids.
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2004
Age limits are perfectly reasonable for several reasons.
But irregardless of health reasons there are practical business reasons that mean that age limits are not going anywhere soon. The primary one is this: very young champions are not good for the sport (which has to be a consideration at decision making levels or there won't be new skaters to get excited about)
Three very young olympic champions in a row fizzled after the olympics with mediocre or virtually non-existant post olympic skating careers. That is no way to run a sport.
Had Baiul, Lipinksi and Hughes not floundered so badly as reigning olympic champions the powers that be might consider loosening age limits but as it is ....
And note that Arakawa, the first adult olympic champion since Yamaguchi is having an adult-style post olympic career so far and is in good enough physical condition to keep herself on the ice in front of crowds for a few years (knock on wood).
But irregardless of health reasons there are practical business reasons that mean that age limits are not going anywhere soon. The primary one is this: very young champions are not good for the sport (which has to be a consideration at decision making levels or there won't be new skaters to get excited about)
Three very young olympic champions in a row fizzled after the olympics with mediocre or virtually non-existant post olympic skating careers. That is no way to run a sport.
Had Baiul, Lipinksi and Hughes not floundered so badly as reigning olympic champions the powers that be might consider loosening age limits but as it is ....
And note that Arakawa, the first adult olympic champion since Yamaguchi is having an adult-style post olympic career so far and is in good enough physical condition to keep herself on the ice in front of crowds for a few years (knock on wood).
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
but lipinski and her work etchic...she would have still practcied those jumps even if she was not as senior... and then by the time she was a senior, she would be too injured to skate, as well as miss the 1998 olympics.
Good. It's not the freakin kiddie Olympics. Though I do still have concerns with what unnatural things gymnastics seems to do to young women's bodies.....but that's another sport.
Not necessarily. Skaters often train to reach a level that's good enough to beat their competition and become number 1. Reaching the top for Junior Worlds Events and the Grand Prix final is somewhat less demanding than doing the same for the Worlds and the Olympics. Even in those instances where the Grand Prix Final competition is as intense as that at Worlds and Olympics, it's still a less prestigious event than those two. The pressure of winning low prestige events is certainly less than the big two, so skaters might train for these a little bit less than otherwise. So it's quite possible that Lipinksi would have had a lighter training regiment had she been forced to stay on the junior circuit longer.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
This is the To be or Not To be question.
It was obvious in those days of yore that to beat Kwan, one had to do it in the technical portion of the 6.0 scoring system. That is the reason for Tara and indeed, Irina worked so hard on tech. We must also understand that it did not affect Irina.
Given the state of Kwan's hip as pointed out by Arutunian that it was troubling before she went to him, she could not keep up with the novo tech developments in ladies figure skating. Her strategy must have been to keep the high Performance scores while nurturing the tech softly.
So is the ISU correct in making a general rule on all figure skaters because of their age? Are we getting less problems in Seniors because the new ladies are held back in juniors because of age?
So, what's a girl to do?? Are some different than others? I don't know. I would like to see a well organized study group on such a topic as:
By using age deterent in juniors as a Factor to Prevent Injuries in Seniors
Joe
After watching the Jr. World videos posted on the ISU site, I'd have to say that the 3 US ladies were standouts---all of them. They were WAY beyond the capabilities of the Junior ladies from other countries. But does that mean they should be competing at the Senior level? For Ashley Wagner, I'd say yes. She is age-eligible for Senior competitions, and probably will move up to the GP next season.
But I'm not sure the same is true for the two 13-year-olds, good as they are. As so many love to point out, they haven't been through puberty AT ALL yet. They may have some rocky times ahead, and they'd be better off staying Junior internationally and working through the growth issues than having major failures at the Senior level because their bodies are changing. In that respect, the age rules are a GOOD thing.
They can compete as Seniors nationally next season and see how they stack up against Meissner, Hughes (if she hasn't gone off to college), Czisny, Liang and Flatt.
But I'm not sure the same is true for the two 13-year-olds, good as they are. As so many love to point out, they haven't been through puberty AT ALL yet. They may have some rocky times ahead, and they'd be better off staying Junior internationally and working through the growth issues than having major failures at the Senior level because their bodies are changing. In that respect, the age rules are a GOOD thing.
They can compete as Seniors nationally next season and see how they stack up against Meissner, Hughes (if she hasn't gone off to college), Czisny, Liang and Flatt.
And continuous, strenuous exercise (i.e., training at elite level in sport) can delay the onset and completion of puberty. Also, there is the added pressure and responsibilities of representing yourself, your nation, family/friends, etc at the highest level of the sport. YuNa, up until this year, always sounded pretty miserable to even be a skater, based on the pressures and expectations on her. So yeah, lets throw that on even more children without giving them a few more years of growth and maturing in how to handle it.
There will always be exceptions, good and bad. Oh, Mao was doing this at age 2 months. Oh, Miki was doing this as a 5 year old. Blah blah blah. The rare exceptions should not make it necessary to change a rule that deals with many many skaters. Some people can drive safer at 80 miles an hour than others do at 55. Doesn't mean the speed limit should be changed, or not apply to those gifted few.
Well, we are NOT protecting the juniors from anything physical by curtailing their move to Seniors. It was reported that Mirai and Caroline completed 6 triples in the FP and Wagner bested them by doing seven in the recent Junior Worlds! Some protection! That is certainly more triples than we saw at last year's Olympics amongst the Senior Ladies' medalists! (Probably Sr. Worlds, also!) It is a bit hypocritical to allow these Juniors to particpate in Sr. GP events, and deny them Worlds' and Olympics' participation. This is one reason that Figure Skating is looked upon skeptically by the public! (And remember to add the idea that crooked judging can be corrected by changing the listing of individual judges' scores with a system that ensures scoring anonymity. Incredulous!)
I disagree wholeheartedly. Girls — and I emphasize GIRLS, because they are not women — are more protected on the junior circuit. Is is competitive? Of course it is. Is it as pressure packed as seniors? NO.
And do you honestly think the general public is going to take figure skating MORE SERIOUSLY if it's all about little girls? Not likely. Talk about a quick way to relegate it to the cute curiosity pile.
There are age limits on a lot of things, and it's not just about skills proficiency. Age limits are one of the things the ISU has done right.
