Caroline and Marai have to WAIT!

[Tinymavy15]

May i add that irina and michelle both "older" skaters who had won mulpitle title both seem to be deciling the choice to skate pro.

 

[Mathman]

OK, I was fuzzy. Rules are designed to produce desirable champions in a way that obscures who is actually the best skater - if Mafke is right about this being a key factor.

Still, lots of sports have age-based eligibility requirements. Like the NFL says a college player has to wait until his class graduates, whether he is still in school or not. The NBA recently put their age limit up from 18 to 19, hoping to force kids to go to at least one year of college before doing a LeBron James.

Actually, there have been several lawsuits by young players about this. Personally I think they have a strong case, but so far the courts have gone along with the idea that the leagues have a right to set eligibility requirements as they see fit (too bad, kid -- no $10,000,000 contract for you).

One interesting thing is that even though the age restriction in figure skating is sometimes called the "Tara Rule," actually Tara would have been eligible for the Olympics anyway. Her birthday is in June, unlike the current crop (Asada, Kim, Meissner, Zhang, Flatt, Nagasu), all of whom celebrate birthdays in the late summer and fall.

Michelle, on the other hand, would not have been eligible for Worlds in 1996 (she was born 7 days too late).

 

[Sylvia]

Look what happened to Naomi Nari Nam. She skated the performnace of a lifetime in 2000 nationals, was too young to go to worlds. Whe she was old enough the combonation of injury and growth had taken thier toll and she did not get her chance. Who could diagree that Naomi had a good chance of mealing if she skated like she did at natioanls at worlds!

Nam won the silver in her senior debut at 1999 Nationals when she was 13 and too young to compete at Worlds. From Skateweb's report on 1999 Nationals:

Naomi Nari Nam: she had incredibly good luck at this competition, when Bobek pulled out and each of Nikodinov, Corwin, and McConn tanked in at least one phase of the competition. After seeing her land only two triples at Pacific Coasts, I thought the best she could possibly hope for was the bottom half of the top 10. I am worried that she's getting too much hype too soon.... it seems that the toe loop and flip are still her only consistent triples, as she was still struggling with two-footing the loop and salchow. One thing I am impressed with, though, is the high quality of her double axel. When I first saw Naomi Nari at Pacific Coasts two years go, her axel was tiny and cheated, now it's a power jump for her.

Nam placed 8th at 2000 Nationals (5th in SP, 9th in FS). Skateweb's 2000 Nationals report had this comment about Nam:

I hope people aren't going to write off Naomi Nari Nam just yet. She is probably not any more inconsistent on her jumps now than she was last year, and she is skating with far more speed and power. She really knocked my socks off in that respect. Give her a couple more years.

 

[Sylvia]

One interesting thing is that even though the age restriction in figure skating is sometimes called the "Tara Rule," actually Tara would have been eleigible for the Olympics anyway. Her birthday is in June,

Because Lipinski competed at 1996 Worlds, she was subsequently "grandfathered" into 1997 Worlds, even though at the time she did not meet the ISU's minimum age rule.

unlike the current crop (Asada, Kim, Meissner, Zhang, Flatt, Nagasu), all of whom celebrate birthdays in the late summer and fall.

Mirai Nagasu will turn 14 in April and Caroline Zhang 14 in May (which makes both of them technically old enough for the Senior Grand Prix this fall) -- the others mentioned all have post-July 1st birthdays.

 

[Mathman]

How did you find out Mirai's birthday, LOL? I just searched all over the web for it

 

[Mathman]

Had Baiul, Lipinski and Hughes done better jobs as reigning (and skating!) olympic champions (like Hammil, Witt and Yamaguchi) I assume age restrictions would not be what they are at present, but they all had poor professional skating careers (for different reasons) and we're got age limits (on balance a good thing).

I don't know if that's exactly right. As Sylvia just pointed out, the age restrictions were in the works before Lipinski won anything and way before Sarah Hughes appeared on the scene.

 

[Mathman]

Nam won the silver in her senior debut at 1999 Nationals when she was 13 and too young to compete at Worlds. From Skateweb's report on 1999 Nationals:...

Skateweb may not have been thrilled, but for the untutored spectators, NNN was the sensation of the competition.

I do remember Peggy Fleming's commentary, however, when Naomi landed a jump and flashed that delicious victory smile. "That's a lot of celebrating for a simple triple toe loop."

The next year John Nicks had both Naomi and Sasha in the contest. As he put it, "I brought two guns. One fired and the other didn't."

 

[Sylvia]

How did you find out Mirai's birthday, LOL?

http://www.isufs.org/bios/isufs00010220.htm

(Nagasu's bio/profile with birthdate was also published on USFS' special 2007 U.S. Nationals site, along with all the Nationals skaters.)

 

[Spun Silver]

The next year John Nicks had both Naomi and Sasha in the contest. As he put it, "I brought two guns. One fired and the other didn't."

Ouch for NNN. I see why Nicks has described his sense of humor as overly sharp for his young skaters.

 

[Mafke]

Interesting - is this fact or theory? While it makes a certain sense, on the whole my reaction is: yet another factor diminishing the credibility of skating results.

How can competitions be rigged to produce durable stars and still be credible as sports?

Define "rigged".
If you want to be a purist, Beatrix Schuba was the last ladies olympic champion who wasn't rigged (in the sense that competition/scoring was weighted as it had been for decades 50/50 figures and free skating).
They drastically cut back on figures and increased free skating primarily to produce more media friendly champions and very few major rule/scoring changes since then have not been aimed at producing media friendly champions....

 

[Mathman]

I don't think the point was to create champions that were more media friendly so much as competitions that were. When television became the 800 pound gorilla, nobody was much interested in watching skaters trace school figures, however charismatic and telegenic the athletes might be.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't think the point was to create champions that were more media friendly so much as competitions that were. When television became the 800 pound gorilla, nobody was much interested in watching skaters trace school figures, however charismatic and telegenic the athletes might be.

I don't think the figures had to be televised. The way ABC edits championships, they could easily announce that Kwan is coming into the Free Skate after finishing 6th in the Figures.

Joe

 

[Sylvia]

It will be interesting to see what the current crop of young ladies will accomplish.

Well you can now add 14-going-on-15-year old Rachael Flatt to the "landed 7 triples in a Junior FS this season" category, as she won her first junior international competition in The Hague earlier today and scored over 100 points in the FS -- see: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15947

 

[emma]

Well you can now add 14-going-on-15-year old Rachael Flatt to the "landed 7 triples in a Junior FS this season" category, as she won her first junior international competition in The Hague earlier today and scored over 100 points in the FS -- see: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15947

Congrats to Rachel!!! Thanks to Sylvia for keeping us updated!

 

[Mathman]

I don't think the figures had to be televised. The way ABC edits championships, they could easily announce that Kwan is coming into the Free Skate after finishing 6th in the Figures.

I think that was one of the problems. The TV audience would see one skater totally outskate everyone else, and then the announcer would say, well, she finished fifth overall and the winner is that lackluster skater who fell twice but was so far ahead after the compulsory figures that it didn't matter.

 

[Mathman]

Well you can now add 14-going-on-15-year old Rachael Flatt to the "landed 7 triples in a Junior FS this season" category, as she won her first junior international competition in The Hague earlier today and scored over 100 points in the FS -- see: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15947

That must have been some program. She got 46.54 base points for her seven jumping passes but only 9.40 points for all of her non-jump elements together, and PCSs as low as 3.0.

 

[chuckm]

If you look at the protocols for all the levels, you'll notice that many of the judges were giving extremely low scorers. The PCS scores at this competition are not representative of the quality of the skating, IMO.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think that was one of the problems. The TV audience would see one skater totally outskate everyone else, and then the announcer would say, well, she finished fifth overall and the winner is that lackluster skater who fell twice but was so far ahead after the compulsory figures that it didn't matter.

There was a champion who won the comp totally on a tremendous score for her figures. When it came time for the exhibitions, she came out and did a figure.

If you look at the protocols for all the levels, you'll notice that many of the judges were giving extremely low scorers. The PCS scores at this competition are not representative of the quality of the skating, IMO.

One of the best reasons for not comparing scores between different comps. However, I do believe they can be compared within a single competition.

I guess the bottom line is, Rachael won by a landslide. She's good and who knows the future?

Joe

 

[purplecat]

There was a champion who won the comp totally on a tremendous score for her figures. When it came time for the exhibitions, she came out and did a figure.

I believe you're thinking of Trixie Shuba.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't know if that's exactly right. As Sylvia just pointed out, the age restrictions were in the works before Lipinski won anything and way before Sarah Hughes appeared on the scene.

True, but they didn't exactly get to your praises after they won their laurels. All three, imo, were skaters whom I thought would elevate the sport. Didn't happen.

Joe