Caroline, where is Thais?

[SeaniBu]

Seanibu - It's an abstract of the seasons. Nothing more. Why make it into a whole novel? Earquakes? tsunamis? tornadoes? cyclones. California, Indonesia, MidWest, NY tristate area. Stories of how they influence people is what would give it a plot.

Joe

The name of the piece is not "Natures Furry." lol

I think I see what you are saying, although I must admit I am giggling right now at the examples given. That is pretty deep, a little over the top IMO too. My feeling on the piece is the interpretation of natures changes and effects it has, or simple as the way the land looks through the "eyes of the music." Simple eh? And what better thing to express nature than music. If you are thinking that to interpret the piece the "earth effects" as you have listed above, it is no wonder you would consider it to complicated and hard to interpret. But just as simple as the feeling you get when someone asks, "what do you feel about spring" is all the interpretation necessary for it is fundamentally a uncomplicated story of nature and no "role playing" is necessary or warranted. Hence easy to interpret in comparison to say, Carman. The freedom to express is not in the confines of characterization expectation.

 

[Mathman]

Perhaps a little OT, but does anyone else agree that Yagudin's Winter was the best men's short program ever?

 

[Tinymavy15]

I don't think Caroline was trying to be Thais. I think she was just skating to some pretty music.

right. I think that skaters who choose Thais never interpret that story. Shen and Zhao told thier own love story. berezyia and shiuiuzle (the russians in 2002) skated a program based on Rodin's sculptures. I think that caroline is simply skating to soft lovely romantic music that suits her very well.

 

[gsrossano]

OK. I'll be he devil and ask "best" in what sense? Technical? Artistic? Both?

Certainly it is one of the most memorable for me.

 

[gsrossano]

right. I think that skaters who choose Thais never interpret that story. Shen and Zhao told thier own love story. berezyia and shiuiuzle (the russians in 2002) skated a program based on Rodin's sculptures. I think that caroline is simply skating to soft lovely romantic music that suits her very well.

The hard part for the judge/viewer with a piece like Thais is that in order to decide if the choreography and interpretation successfully communicate the purpose of the program, the judge first has to decide what the purpose is. But the meditation can support many different purposes. But, what was the skater's intended purpose? And does the judge (viewer) correctly recognize what that purpose is?

My reaction to Caroline's choreography is that the purpose of her program is to express the emotional content of the music or maybe just to express the structure of the music in movement. Both valid purposes from the point of view of judging the program. Probably the first of the two I would guess.

 

[gio]

right. I think that skaters who choose Thais never interpret that story. Shen and Zhao told thier own love story. berezyia and shiuiuzle (the russians in 2002) skated a program based on Rodin's sculptures. I think that caroline is simply skating to soft lovely romantic music that suits her very well.

With an important difference. Shen and Zhao understood the music. Their interpretation was just superb. They understood the emotions that the music transmits and sold it. Caroline was the opposite. I didn't feel any emotion coming from her skating. It was....empty, IMO. On the other hand I found a completely different Caroline in the You raise me up program. Here I saw a Caroline that sold the program. I felt emotions coming from her skate. So, I guess, comparing the two programs, that Caroline didn't understand the music of her LP.

 

[Tonichelle]

Perhaps a little OT, but does anyone else agree that Yagudin's Winter was the best men's short program ever?

for me Kurt's SP in 93/94 was and is the best... St Louis Blues, IIRC? (I always get his programs from his competitive days confused)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I was getting the impression that you thought that it is "not a known story," where I feel that it is a know story. Jut not one of "playing a role." This was what you were saying - I think - made it harder for the skates to skate to it, I think it makes it easier for there is more "accepted" interpretation variations.

I wasn't sure that I can agree with it being harder or it having no known story. I am more sure now. I said "sure" because I was trying to sound open minded to the possibility of changing my mind. Most of the time I am.:yes:

I really like this routine of Steph's , just not the Jumanji outfit.:sheesh:

Good to have you back Joe.

My original post on this item was that it is picturesque meaning that artists (painters) often depic the seasons. Yagudin as a skater did a number on just Winter. There was no story. It was just the music, and his interpretation.

My point is that plotless music does not need a story theme.

Thanks for the welcome. Tokyo is a looong way from NYC.

Joe

 

[SeaniBu]

My point is that plotless music does not need a story theme.

Oh, so why do you think it is harder if it does have a story line? Some might find that easier to follow a story than to "wing it" with interpretation.:yes:
And don't be making me go hunt down your post to show why I am getting this notion, I have it and it was given whether you meant to or not.
It did sound as though you MAY feel 4seasons does not have a story line, I disagreed. I don't see a characterization in it, no people, but definable a story of the seasons and the changes that occur. JMO

Also that it is harder to follow a story line. I can't say it isn't contingent on the performer. Making it harder to be "open to interpretation" to some that would prefer to be told act like so and so.

Not trying to put words in your posts, but this is the impressions I received after reading your posts.

Thanks for the welcome. Tokyo is a looong way from NYC.

Yah, I am totally stink'n jealous Joe. I did honestly miss your posts, take a Laptop next time.

 

[gsrossano]

Some music is about telling a story. Some has another thematic purpose (which is different from having a story). Some is about nothing at all other than taking an interesting (at least to the composer) musical theme/melody and setting it to an established compositional style (e.g., a sonata, a rondo, a canon, etc.) In the latter case, the music is all about the structure of the music for it's own sake, which hopefully the listener will find interesting to the ear.

The Four Seasons doesn't have a story. They don't have a character who does this and this and that. They are about painting a musical picture of a typical winter, spring, summer and autumn day. Vilvaldi wrote a sonata for each, that are supposed to be read with each, that describe the sights, sounds and feelings of each season he was trying to express.

 

[Mathman]

OK. I'll be he devil and ask "best" in what sense? Technical? Artistic? Both?

Certainly it is one of the most memorable for me.

Me. too. I guess for me, that is the point. I don't really remember the technical content, I just rememer being blown away with a big WOW, that's what figure skating is all about! (However, I do think that was the first time we saw that Morosov footwork, before everyone started doing it..)

Best for a lady: Michelle's 1996 Rachmaninov. Best in the sense of turning my heart to mush , LOL.

 

[Tinymavy15]

i have to agree with most of you about caroline's you raise me up. I was stunned watching her. i didn't uite get the big draw about her before that but in the exebition ber interpration of the music was the best i have ever seen... better than shizukia's and better than michelle's. Her spirals were amazing, her back was much straighter and solid than in the competion it's self. It's obivious that she really feels that music and displays emotions to it. i think that she should use and instmenatal version of that song for her freeskate next year.

 

[Mathman]

Some is about nothing at all other than taking an interesting (at least to the composer) musical theme/melody and setting it to an established compositional style (e.g., a sonata, a rondo, a canon, etc.) In the latter case, the music is all about the structure of the music for it's own sake, which hopefully the listener will find interesting to the ear.

That is what I would really like to see -- a skater who could add something, by her movement, to the music itself. I wish someone would try to interpret the Haydn string quartets (op. 76), for instance. That would beat a thousand Toscas flinging themselves from the parapet.

(To Sean: yes, Lori Nichol gave Fumie several progams to music like Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik and Bach's Tocatta and Fugue, which is "pure music" with no story to tell.)

 

[Mathman]

...berezyia and shiuiuzle (the russians in 2002)...

I think you mean Breezy and Sweewoozle.

 

[gsrossano]

That is what I would really like to see -- a skater who could add something, by her movement, to the music itself. I wish someone would try to interpret the Haydn string quartets (op. 76), for instance. That would beat a thousand Toscas flinging themselves from the parapet.

(To Sean: yes, Lori Nichol gave Fumie several progams to music like Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik and Bach's Tocatta and Fugue, which is "pure music" with no story to tell.)

To take it a little farther -- there is absolute music (what you call pure music) and there is program music. Not only does absolute music have "no story to tell", it has no reference to any scene, mood, image, tone painting, external programmatic theme, etc., etc. either.

The goal is that for ALL choices of music (absolute or programmatic) the skaters are ALWAYS supposed to add something to the music by their movement. That is the whole point. In all schools of choreography there is a fundamental principle that the movement should not "lean" on the music. The movement is supposed to complement and add to the music, so that the music and the movement together are more than the sum of their parts. If the choreography relies on the viewer knowing what the music is about, or if it is the music leading the viewer through the program then the choreography has failed. There are very few skating programs that come even close to meeting this ideal, which is why the presentation components for most skaters rightfully deserve to be in the toilet.

 

[SeaniBu]

To Sean: yes, Lori Nichol gave Fumie several progams to music like Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik and Bach's Tocatta and Fugue, which is "pure music" with no story to tell.)

OK, why the "yes"????? I didn't ask or say she didn't???

They are about painting a musical picture of a typical winter, spring, summer and autumn day. Vilvaldi wrote a sonata for each, that are supposed to be read with each, that describe the sights, sounds and feelings of each season he was trying to express.

Now what the heck is your idea of a story???? That is a story!

"Every picture paints a story" :yes:

As you put it
"Vilvaldi wrote....that describe the sights, sounds and feelings of each season he was trying to express. "
Sounds like a narrative there.
Whatever, stupid semantics and people "thinking."

 

[gsrossano]

Now what the heck is your idea of a story????

A story has characters, action and a plot. It is a narrative that describes a sequence of events. In music a tone poem (of which the Four Seasons is one of the earliest examples), is not considered to be telling a story. It is doing something else. It is expressing a group of images to evoke the season, but the groups of images do not have character, action, plot, or even a sequence of events. Tone poems have a purpose/theme, but the purpose is not to tell a story.

But call it a story if you want, that's OK with me.

 

[SeaniBu]

It is expressing a group of images to evoke the season, but the groups of images do not have character, action, plot, or even a sequence of events.

I disagree, the images do have character, do invoke images of action (blowing snow at the smallest level) and I was certain - now not so much - that the seasons were in order of how they occur in nature. I might be wrong on that last point but the others are a story to me.

But call it a story if you want, that's OK with me.

:agree: ITA, It may not be to you a story, it is OK, but your interpretation that it is not is for the same reasons I have my "thinking" that it is a simple one of nature. Now does nature have a story, some may say no, I disagree, it might just be how I interpret nature and whether the intent on making it a definable story or not, it still is subject to interpretation - hence the idea it is a story is just as relevant as one interpreting it as not being one.

But the "paints a picture" is definitely saying story to me. That picture in the mind it paints is worth a thousand words, etc... JMO which I don't see how one said I was wrong to think it is. It is my interpretation that others may not see and agree, but wrong to... ?

 

[iloveaxel]

With an important difference. Shen and Zhao understood the music. Their interpretation was just superb. They understood the emotions that the music transmits and sold it. Caroline was the opposite. I didn't feel any emotion coming from her skating. It was....empty, IMO. On the other hand I found a completely different Caroline in the You raise me up program. Here I saw a Caroline that sold the program. I felt emotions coming from her skate. So, I guess, comparing the two programs, that Caroline didn't understand the music of her LP.

I agree with you on both fronts. But cut this kid a slack, she's just 13. From an interview I read, Caroline's coach was fully aware of her weakness in terms of artistry. She always likes to skate to some soft music, and I'm sure her coaching staff will find some different music for her to try out next season.

 

[gsrossano]

and I was certain - now not so much - that the seasons were in order of how they occur in nature.

But which season is first in nature? (For the trivialy inclined the current calender starts the year about a week after winter begins, but in the ancient world the start of the year coincided with the beginning of spring)

In any event they are numbered Op 8, 1-4 with spring first and winter last (not how I listed them).