Caroline's jumps-slow mo <3

[bekalc]

Well wasn't Mao 3/3 less in Paris against Sasha?

And what about Yu-na Kim. The judges quite quickly vaulted her to the top as well, of course others made more mistakes to let that happen. But it really didn't take long for the Judges to put Yu-na on top of the leader board.

I'm sorry, but I don't think the judges are out to get the newcomers. Yes, I think on PCS there is an element of earn your way up little child.. BUT, I think that the judges also like to see new faces it's exciting.

 

[Andalusia]

How so?

Because I counted heads turning at this latest SA, and I'm now discovering that jumps I had thought were satisfactorily rotated might not have been, at least in the eyes of the judges. If this is how it's gonna be like at upcoming competitions, the "counting of head turns" approach might not be the best way to go about in determining the number of full revolutions completed.

 

[Andalusia]

Well wasn't Mao 3/3 less in Paris against Sasha?

And what about Yu-na Kim. The judges quite quickly vaulted her to the top as well, of course others made more mistakes to let that happen. But it really didn't take long for the Judges to put Yu-na on top of the leader board.

I'm sorry, but I don't think the judges are out to get the newcomers. Yes, I think on PCS there is an element of earn your way up little child.. BUT, I think that the judges also like to see new faces it's exciting.

I've no idea of the specifics, but even a Mao with no 3/3 could probably still beat Sasha. I'm guessing since it's the latter we're dealing with, she probably had a number of splats at that competition in Paris.

And Kim Yu-Na? She of the perfect triples and the awesomely high 3/3? You'd have to really go out of your way to top that in order to beat her.

Same with Michelle vs Sarah at SLC in 2002. Sarah went so far beyond what Michelle did technically that collusion would have been obvious had Michelle won that night. Even then, without the stumble on the triple flip, Michelle would probably have won. That kind of mentality on the part of the judges exists in the old system and the new, IMO - when in doubt, reward the oldie.

 

[bekalc]

From what I recall both Mao and Sasha fell at that particular competition. But honestly, I watched Caroline's jumps again, and especially on the flip lutz, she really does take off almost foward.

 

[Mathman]

IIRC Mao Asada has had her jumps, especially the toe-loop, downgraded quite a bit for pre-rotation. So maybe that is what the tech specialist was calling on Caroline Zhang's jumps, rather than the landing.

 

[feraina]

IIRC Mao Asada has had her jumps, especially the toe-loop, downgraded quite a bit for pre-rotation. So maybe that is what the tech specialist was calling on Caroline Zhang's jumps, rather than the landing.

Really? You think they're changing the rules on how they implement calling under-rotations then?

I think this means that Kimmie's 3T in the 3/3 and Evan's 3A are both in grave danger, then?

 

[Mathman]

Is that really changing the rules? Haven't they always dinged "toe-Axels' (pre-rotated toe-loops)?

Yeah, I don't know why they never say anything about Lysacek's 2.75 revolution (instead of 3.5) triple Axel.

Edited to add: BTW, even for a jump that is underrotated by less than a quarter turn, so it is not downgraded, the rules say that the judges are still supposed to take off -2 in GOE for the (slight) underrotation.

 

[redhotcoach]

Pre-rotating jumps

Now that I have carefully dissected Caroline's take-off technique, I think it might be interesting for someone with the slow-mo ability - to take a look at the jumps of all the latest crop of wunderkin's.

Perhaps the reason so many young skaters with tiny, boy-shaped bodies are appearing to master the difficult triple jumps - is because they have unwittingly discovered a new technique to pre-rotate the take-off, thereby facilitating an apparent triple jump with ease.

We have always been taught that toe jumps take off with the skate rake firmly planted in the ice - big toe down and heel up - opposite the direction of travel. I was always told that if the ankle dropped or rotated on the pick - a skater was in danger of tearing ankle tendons and muscles, and causing repetitive damage to the lower leg and foot. So we always had to correct that in skaters.

So- the question is: have these tiny, weightless skaters discovered a new technique -- or are they at risk of causing severe damage to their bodies once they gain any sort of weight or maturity??

 

[Mathman]

So- the question is: have these tiny, weightless skaters discovered a new technique -- or are they at risk of causing severe damage to their bodies once they gain any sort of weight or maturity??

That is a very interesting point.

I have wondered if sometimes coaches are not too strict on proper technique for their youngest students on that grounds that, the main thing is for the kids to have fun. 99.9% of them will never skate at the elite competitive level, so if they come up with a funky technique on their own and it helps them jump about and have fun, well, no harm, no foul.

Later on, for those few who do advance up the competitive ladder, they have developed habits which will hold them back (maybe even cause injury), but are now to late to correct.

 

[redhotcoach]

I can only imagine the torque placed on the hip ball and socket when executing repeated triples using the Zhang technique. Anyone with more expertise out there that can analyize these risks?

 

[emma]

MM has a good point and it's hard to no what to say - or insist on, good fun or serious injury prevention...

I don't have any knowledge to add to how risky Zhang's technique is, but I will say that it doesn't look safe - as I said on another thread, it makes my toe hurt when I watch it - the way she jamns her toe at an angle hard into the ice just can't be good for the foot, and I worry about her hip too.

 

[Hsuhs]

What are we supposed to be looking for in these shots? Take-off edges? Pre-rotation?

What I've noticed is that Caroline's jumps are done on a very 'curved' curve.
As for all the <'s and e's, I'm glad I'm not the one who has to decide.

 

[DaveT]

I don't think anyone is taking off anything for take-offs, it's the landings. I also think this was a case of a very strict caller as Caroline was certainly not the only one impacted and I read this Tech. Specialist has been known to be tough. Looks to me like the revolution is not quite completed in the air and she swings around on the landing. Loop still looked good and clean to me, but I'm no expert as I don't see 1/2 turn completed on the landings of most of those jumps.

 

[Tinymavy15]

thanks for posting! The last triple lutz was just beautiful....i dont know what these judges are looking for. They are just trying to find somthing to pick on because they can't accept that she is perfect.

The 3 toe in the combo might have been cheated a little.... i still can't really tell. It could have gone either way. But why nitpick?

The salchow was fine, the loop was fine the flip in the combo was perfect... I am so mad right now!

 

[Mafke]

They are just trying to find somthing to pick on because they can't accept that she is perfect.

No hyperbole here!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

IIRC Mao Asada has had her jumps, especially the toe-loop, downgraded quite a bit for pre-rotation. So maybe that is what the tech specialist was calling on Caroline Zhang's jumps, rather than the landing.

Did they really call a prerotated jump? We all know it exists but I had never read that it was actually called. If so, things are improving. Good thing it's not retroactive. Many medals would have to be given back.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

^ According to ChuckM's post on the other thread, in the Skate America SP Mai Asada got caught for pre-rotation on the second jump of her 3Lz/2T combination. It was scored as a 3Lz/1T and she only got 3.8 points for the combination instead of 7.3.

On the other hand, when this topic has come up before people have said that some jumps, like the Salchow, are always pre-rotated just by the mechanics of the jump. (?)

It's funny, though, how the CoP treats the underrotation problem as an either/or, whereas all other errors are left more or less to the discretion of the judges, whether to give a -1 GOE or whatever.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

On the other hand, when this topic has come up before people have said that some jumps, like the Salchow, are always pre-rotated just by the mechanics of the jump. (?)

It's funny, though, how the CoP treats the underrotation problem as an either/or, whereas all other errors are left more or less to the discretion of the judges, whether to give a -1 GOE or whatever.

That's so true. people are not into talking technique. Salchows and Loop jumps can be executed to a full rotation with good technique. One has to control the take-off otherwise the jump becomes much easier. One can make a figure on the ice showing a back outside edge as well as a back inside edge; at their apexes (or apis) one can jump full air turn just as if he were to complete his ice figure. It's not easy but it is possible.

I hope CoP continues to fine-tune the system especially in some of these basics and go by definitions and not attempts.

Joe

 

[oleada]

Well, the Asada sisters are well known to toe-axel their triple-toes. It doesn't surprise me that it got downgraded. Mao does it to - at Worlds, had she not pre-rotated the triple-toe at the end of her double-axel triple-toe combination, she would have been world champion.

They are just trying to find somthing to pick on because they can't accept that she is perfect.

Seriously? No skater is perfect, and Caroline isn't the exception.

 

[Andalusia]

If the technical specialist at SA, Jayson Peace from Canada, reprises his position at any upcoming events in which Mao Asada is competing, she had better be afraid. Very afraid.

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/SkateFans/message/181167