Caroline's jumps-slow mo <3

[feraina]

The last triple lutz was just beautiful....i dont know what these judges are looking for. They are just trying to find somthing to pick on because they can't accept that she is perfect.

Tinymavy, I'm within you!

Perfection, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

And don't tell me perfection in skating is defined by set rules, because rules are implemented by humans. I bet anything if someone put together a statistical analysis of the scoring of judges and technical specialists, there would be obvious personal biases and prejudices in most of them. (I will look out for this Jason Peace from now on.)

Imperfection, unfortunately, is also in the eye of the beholder.

 

[oleada]

Well, flutzing, that kick and under-rotation is definitely not perfection to me, or most people, so I'm glad the callers are being tough on it.

Don't get me wrong, Caroline is a very lovely musical skater with incredible spinning ability and charisma out the wazoo, but those jumps really, really need to be fixed.

 

[tae04]

I thought the downgrading was a bit harsh on Zhang, also. The normal viewer would have thought she should have won. I think she does need to work on the height of her jumps, but I don't think she underrotated 5 times. Alot of triples are somewhat prerotated. Especially combos with LOOPS on the backend, those are definetely prerotated.

 

[capcomop]

thanks for posting! The last triple lutz was just beautiful....i dont know what these judges are looking for. They are just trying to find somthing to pick on because they can't accept that she is perfect.

Maybe they are looking for a correct take off edge lutz (among other things)? Even the slow-mo video guy admits the that her lutz is a flutz! That pretty much negates the concept of the "perfect" jump. In fact a very knowledgable poster on SakteFans (attended SA) who, in all the years I have been reading the board, has never ever shouted, shouted that Caroline needs to pick an edge and STICK WITH IT!
The girl is a very pretty skater, but her jump technique, even forgetting the pre and under rotations, has room for some major improvements (mule kick, height, distance, clean and secure take off and landing edges)! She will interesting to watch grow and develop!

 

[dwiggin3]

Did they really call a prerotated jump? We all know it exists but I had never read that it was actually called. If so, things are improving. Good thing it's not retroactive. Many medals would have to be given back.

Joe

When the GOE scores come out and we see a downgrade due to the caller, do we know if the caller was pointing out a cheated landing or a cheated takeoff - is it made clear which it is? How is the skater/coach/fan suppose to know if it's not?

 

[dwiggin3]

thanks for posting! The last triple lutz was just beautiful....i dont know what these judges are looking for. They are just trying to find somthing to pick on because they can't accept that she is perfect.

The 3 toe in the combo might have been cheated a little.... i still can't really tell. It could have gone either way. But why nitpick?

The salchow was fine, the loop was fine the flip in the combo was perfect... I am so mad right now!

Tinymavy - nobody is perfect. Are you?

I'm not sure how you could say she is perfect. :scratch: Sure, she is young and has a certain charisma that defies her age, she has a nice line and fast spins ( I like her camel position - nice pointed toes and her layback is very nice) and seems to display a nice understanding of musicality for her age, but I can not see how anyone would say her skating, specifically her jump technique is perfect! She pre-rotates her jumps, has this donkey kick (TM) pick-in for her jumps which is terribly unattractive (Hughes has it too and yuck), she wiggles her edges going in and out of all jumps - esp. toe jumps - hardly an indication that she is on a solid and secure edge going in and out of her jumps (Sasha does this and it drives me crazy!!!!! I did this when I skated and the only reason you do it is to mask the lack of control you have on a jump take-off or landing). Her edges are fairly shallow (IIRC, she got a 1 on GOE for her spiral sequence - not sure if it was that didn't hold it long enough or if it was because the edge was shallow. I will admit, she has nice extension). These are all indications of poor technique. I would rather see a skater of her age with solid jump and spin technique, good edge control and an inkling of style. Style, charisma ect can be learned to a certain degree and can be learned at an older age (Shen and Zhou if you please). Nothing is better than a strong skater with strong technique. Caroline does not have this. What she has is an uncanny style for her age which has been unusual enough to mask poor technique for her age/skill level.

 

[redhotcoach]

Here, here!

What we have on this forum are extremely knowledgable fans, coaches, skaters or parents - who have studied the new CoP system and are aware of the fine details of evaluating each element.......and fans, parents, skaters etc. who have not been exposed to the extensive training needed to understand the sport from the technical aspect now being implemented.

So -fans who get upset with other posters analyzing a skater's technique, or fans who call the technical specialists and controllers names or threaten that they had better stay out of their way....are not helping the sport any and in fact, are showing their lack of actual knowledge about the sport.

Let's face it - the average parent in the stands can't tell if their child is doing a double flip, single toe-loop or axel most of the time....and forget about calling the name of their child's combination spins so as to get the levels correct...

And most skaters or coaches - unless they are actually competing under the new rules of the CoP system and are kept up to date with the many changes (which seem to come weekly) - don't have the technical knowledge to really comment on what decisions the technical panel makes. It takes training, studying and an eagle eye to spot these things.

That's why during the Olympics, the networks have segments identifying jumps etc. so that the arm-chair athletes at home can at least have some understanding of what is going on, technically.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Tinymavy - nobody is perfect. Are you?

I'm not sure how you could say she is perfect. :scratch: Sure, she is young and has a certain charisma that defies her age, she has a nice line and fast spins ( I like her camel position - nice pointed toes and her layback is very nice) and seems to display a nice understanding of musicality for her age, but I can not see how anyone would say her skating, specifically her jump technique is perfect! She pre-rotates her jumps, has this donkey kick (TM) pick-in for her jumps which is terribly unattractive (Hughes has it too and yuck), she wiggles her edges going in and out of all jumps - esp. toe jumps - hardly an indication that she is on a solid and secure edge going in and out of her jumps (Sasha does this and it drives me crazy!!!!! I did this when I skated and the only reason you do it is to mask the lack of control you have on a jump take-off or landing). Her edges are fairly shallow (IIRC, she got a 1 on GOE for her spiral sequence - not sure if it was that didn't hold it long enough or if it was because the edge was shallow. I will admit, she has nice extension). These are all indications of poor technique. I would rather see a skater of her age with solid jump and spin technique, good edge control and an inkling of style. Style, charisma ect can be learned to a certain degree and can be learned at an older age (Shen and Zhou if you please). Nothing is better than a strong skater with strong technique. Caroline does not have this. What she has is an uncanny style for her age which has been unusual enough to mask poor technique for her age/skill level.

Exactly. nobody is perfect, so why is it that when sombody is amazingly good, close to perfect that still isn't good enough. First it was "she won't do well without a triple triple." Well she got one. And landed it in both program, more than miss meissner is able to say.

 

[bekalc]

Exactly. nobody is perfect, so why is it that when sombody is amazingly good, close to perfect that still isn't good enough. First it was "she won't do well without a triple triple." Well she got one. And landed it in both program, more than miss meissner is able to say.

Uh, Caroline's 3/3 wasn't ratified. So, she doesn't have one yet....

She's close I'll give you that.

I'm sorry but it's hard for me to be excited about Caroline. Don't get me wrong, I like watching her, and I refuse to rule her out because she seems to have a killer competitor instinct...BUT.

Her technique leaves a lot to be desired. Honestly, I have to wonder how old you are? Because part of my skeptisim about Caroline comes from my age. I've seen so many "next big things" in my life time, so to speak, and a lot of them don't amount to much, or don't amount to what they hype says they will be (Sasha)

While skaters have won the Olympics with some technical flaws Tara, Sarah (although Tara was improving) skaters who have long careers tend to have very solid technique.. For example, Sarah can't jump much any more.
A good technical base is just extremely important. It's kind of like building a house. One person chooses to build the foundation very strong, and the other person spends less time on the foundation so they can spend more time on the decorating? Now which house do you think will last longer?

I think that's what a lot of people here are kind of doing. We are looking behind Caroline's lovely style, and saying we aren't sure about her basic skills.. . Great style is wonderful yes, but style shouldn't come at the expensive of skating basics. Because style is something that will grow as the skater gets older.

A great example is Michelle Kwan. Michelle Kwan wasn't nearly as lovely to watch as Caroline was, when she was Caroline's age. But Michelle Kwan had excellent basics, and solid, solid, solid technique. And eventually she grew into her artistry.

 

[netnuts]

This sport is dying. I guess for all those rabid 'fans', they'll be happy to watch slo-mo via Internet going forwards.

It's getting ridiculous...

As an avid fan, I have decided not to pay attention to any placement any more. I'll probably just watch a couple of skaters I'm still interested in.

Anybody knows if Mao or Yu-Na going to be at 'Skate Canada'?

 

[Tinymavy15]

Anybody knows if Mao or Yu-Na going to be at 'Skate Canada'?

Mao is skating at skate canada.

 

[bekalc]

This sport is dying. I guess for all those rabid 'fans', they'll be happy to watch slo-mo via Internet going forwards.

It's getting ridiculous...

As an avid fan, I have decided not to pay attention to any placement any more. I'll probably just watch a couple of skaters I'm still interested in.

Anybody knows if Mao or Yu-Na going to be at 'Skate Canada'?

Mao will be at Skate Canada

Yu na will be at Cup of China.

I disagree that skate is dying. Yes, N. Americans are losing interest, and something has to be done about it....But skating is getting huge in Russia, and huge in Japan.

Also, I'm willing to bet you that skating is developing a lot of fans in Korea too, due to Yu-na Kim.. So skating isn't dying it just needs to be advertised better in N. America too.

 

[Wrlmy]

I agree that decreasing popularity is largely a North American problem. I mean you would be pretty indifferent to watch any sports unless you have your favorite. Ever since Kwan and Cohen left the competition, many fans lost interest. Other disciplines have never been popular in the U.S. any way. I think strict judging is going to be beneficial to figure skating in certain aspect. The era of 3-3 might have been dillusional, and it's going to open doors to skaters with soild 3-2 jumps like Meier, Rochette, Czisny, Nagasu, etc. I am actually expecting Sasha Cohen or even Kwan may come back and be competitive, which would bring back the popularity.

 

[Mathman]

The era of 3-3 might have been dillusional, and it's going to open doors to skaters with soild 3-2 jumps like Meier, Rochette, Czisny, Nagasu, etc.

That is an excellent point. Maybe all these triple-triples that we have been gushing over in the "new era" aren't triple-triples at all.

 

[bekalc]

I agree that decreasing popularity is largely a North American problem. I mean you would be pretty indifferent to watch any sports unless you have your favorite. Ever since Kwan and Cohen left the competition, many fans lost interest. Other disciplines have never been popular in the U.S. any way. I think strict judging is going to be beneficial to figure skating in certain aspect. The era of 3-3 might have been dillusional, and it's going to open doors to skaters with soild 3-2 jumps like Meier, Rochette, Czisny, Nagasu, etc. I am actually expecting Sasha Cohen or even Kwan may come back and be competitive, which would bring back the popularity.

Well, I don't know about that. The only jumps Mao has been known to get downgraded are her 3 toe/and perhaps sometimes her 3 axel. However, I could be wrong, but I don't think Yu-na Kim has ever had a downgraded jump, and her 3/3 is as clean as a whistle.

I actually strongly suspect that the real beneficiary of these rules changes is Yu-na.

 

[persimmon]

Honestly, I think the tech. panel did the right thing in downgrading all of these jumps. Seeing it in slow-mo really helps- they *are* all cheated by about a half turn. You just have to look at the blades. Look carefully and you'll notice that her foot first touches the ice about a half-turn before fully rotated. She just cheats really well, it's hard to tell without slow-mo. She does what I call a "comma" because of the mark it leaves on the ice. Basically she completes the last half on her toe-pick and comes out on an edge, which is why it looks clean. And I was shocked (shocked I tell you ) that Evan's Toe AND Axel weren't downgraded. Those seemed pretty obvious (especially the quad) and you could pretty much see those even without slow-mo. So, yes, I completely agree with the downgrades for Caroline. Even though they weren't blatant cheats, they *were* cheats.

 

[Wrlmy]

Well, I don't know about that. The only jumps Mao has been known to get downgraded are her 3 toe/and perhaps sometimes her 3 axel. However, I could be wrong, but I don't think Yu-na Kim has ever had a downgraded jump, and her 3/3 is as clean as a whistle.

I actually strongly suspect that the real beneficiary of these rules changes is Yu-na.

The point I was trying to make is not that there is no lady who can do clean 3-3 but that 3-3 might not be necessary to medal as many of us thought. Even before this "new era", there have been ladies who could complete 3-3 like slutskaya, arakawa, Sarah Hughes, etc. But they didn't win everything, right? Now, there are only two ladies who can consistently land 3-3. Kim and Ando. But even Ando seemed reluctant to go for 3-3 at SA. So maybe you're right that Yuna is the beneficiary of the strict judging. But, it's possible to medal, or even win, with very solid 3-2. I personally think that Caroline shouldn't go out of her way to squeeze 3-3 out of her tiny body. Her 3-2 wasn't downgraded at SA, though she got dinged for flutzing. Although Yuna is unusually well-rounded skater, if Caroline can bring her skating skill/ transition up to the level of Yuna, she might be able to outskate her with "very" good 3-2 someday.

 

[bekalc]

The point I was trying to make is not that there is no lady who can do clean 3-3 but that 3-3 might not be necessary to medal as many of us thought. Even before this "new era", there have been ladies who could complete 3-3 like slutskaya, arakawa, Sarah Hughes, etc. But they didn't win everything, right? Now, there are only two ladies who can consistently land 3-3. Kim and Ando. But even Ando seemed reluctant to go for 3-3 at SA. So maybe you're right that Yuna is the beneficiary of the strict judging. But, it's possible to medal, or even win, with very solid 3-2. I personally think that Caroline shouldn't go out of her way to squeeze 3-3 out of her tiny body. Her 3-2 wasn't downgraded at SA, though she got dinged for flutzing. Although Yuna is unusually well-rounded skater, if Caroline can bring her skating skill/ transition up to the level of Yuna, she might be able to outskate her with "very" good 3-2 someday.

Well Shizuka had an underrotation problem so once she ended up in COP her jumps tended to get downgraded (her 3/3's especially)...As for Irina, she a lot of times for inexplicable reasons wouldn't eve try her 3/3's. And as for Hughes, if I recall she didn't go for 3/3's all the time, but I could be wrong.

As for Ando, Miki is injured, and her condition isn't up to her normal par. She probably figured that she didn't need the 3/3 this time/wasn't worth it... Miki might even be relieved if she's not at the GPF. This wasn't Miki at her best.

As for Caroline outskating Yu-na/Mao with a very good 3-2. I don't really see that happening, unless Yu-na isn't clean. Same with Mao, who is pretty consistent on her 3/3 herself. Both Mao and Yu-na are just two strong in the PC department themselves. So unless you want to concede the competition to Mao and Yu-na and pray that they fall, then I think you really do need a 3/3. Quite frankly, I think if it's a choice between two artistic skaters one with a 3/3 and another without a 3/3, the judges will go with the girl with a 3/3. It is a sport after all.

 

[Wrlmy]

Of course I don't see Caroline outskating Yuna or Mao at this point. That's why I mentioned "someday". However, the point difference between triple toe and double toe is less than 3 points, which Caroline might be accumulate with her spins and spiral. Of course, that is going to happen only if Caroline is up to par in other aspects like footwork. BTW, the reason I didn't mention Mao in my last post is because her 3-3 is not as consistent and may be vulnerable to downgrade. Anyway, I love Yuna's skating (what's not to like?), and I get strong Yuna vive from Caroline (especially in her expression and her programs this year).

 

[carolinefan177]

I'm curious as to how many of her jumps were underrotated at junior worlds...I also am a little confused. Will cheating a jump cause a < from the judges?