Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

[xibsuarz]

But hopefully no more judging fiascos like 2013 Worlds or 2014 Worlds or 2014 Cup of China.

I really doubt it would happen again, precisely because they're not the only great skaters out there. As you said, there are other skaters like Javier and Denis, who the judges do like and are willing to give them good PCS as well. So I think that they won't have a cushion so big that they could fall all over the place and still win. And even if Denis or Javier weren't there, if Patrick fails, Yuzuru will get ahead of him. And if Yuzuru fails, Patrick wins (unless they both bomb). They don't have a PCS cushion exactly because of each other.
Which makes next season more exciting since hopefully, it will push them all to do their best at the competitions

 

[Marin]

You know what I meant, 2 quads and 8 triples and I am sure nobody did it before, maybe the time I am watching this sport is the same age as you

 

[Interspectator]

I hope we can keep this thread as positive as possible and focus on the strengths and weaknesses of Chan and Hanyu's skating without going into their personalities too much.


...about the close or controversial finishes of the last few years amongst the men,
I think there is an emphasis on counting quads which is a bit of a hang over from the 6.0 era. What is counted in COP is the sum total of ALL the jumps and technical elements, plus PCS.

-This is why Jason and Misha were ranked as high as 4th and 6th at the last worlds over some quad jumpers and why Yuzu was able to keep hold of Silver.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

lol, I bet he prefers an olympic gold medal around his neck than a world record score. He knows many many people (judges, specialists, journalists, fans and public) questioned his wins in 2012 and 2013, and he even spoke about it in interviews, something like "I'm so much better than anyone else, that's why I win with falls"...About his world titles in 2012 and 2013: He was booed by the crowd in 2012 during the scores, interviews and podium, I don't think I ever saw a skater get that kind of crowd reaction. Sure, a beautiful victory. But it's not surprising, I don't think many people love cocky arrogant skaters who are overscored and win world titles with huge falls and mistakes.

Enh. An Olympic gold medal is nice, but only if you skated well for it. Hanyu won but even he himself knows it was the best of a horrendous men's competition, and said so himself that he's looking to improve on that performance in Sochi.

Also, the crowd in the 2012 FS were clearly classless in booing (booing for a skater getting hosed by the judges is fine, but when a skater is the only one to lay down two clean quads (to Takahashi's 1 quad) and their only major mistake is to fall on a 2A... that's ridiculous). That reaction was also clearly ignorant of what happened in the SP, as Chan had created a sizeable lead over Takahashi who downgraded his combo.

But of course, crowds pay attention to the segment they're attending and not the whole competition (although it's justifiable that they would be upset with Chan winning the LP, when he should have lost that). And they aren't privy to things like UR calls and GOE.

I mean, Chan's 3F was 6.93 points to Takahashi's 3F< with 3.27 - that difference of 3.67 point is the value of Chan having landed a clean 2A instead of bailing on it. By Takahashi not completely rotating (which was the call, even though some debate it), he gave back the error that Chan had on the 2A. Of course, the fall looks worse, but they both made the "same" error, points-wise.

 

[Marin]

Enh. An Olympic gold medal is nice, but only if you skated well for it. Hanyu won but even he himself knows it was the best of a horrendous men's competition, and said so himself that he's looking to improve on that performance in Sochi.

Also, the crowd in the 2012 FS were clearly classless in booing (booing for a skater getting hosed by the judges is fine, but when a skater is the only one to lay down two clean quads (to Takahashi's 1 quad) and their only major mistake is to fall on a 2A... that's ridiculous). That reaction was also clearly ignorant of what happened in the SP, as Chan had created a sizeable lead over Takahashi who downgraded his combo.

But of course, crowds pay attention to the segment they're attending and not the whole competition (although it's justifiable that they would be upset with Chan winning the LP, when he should have lost that). And they aren't privy to things like UR calls and GOE.

I mean, Chan's 3F was 6.93 points to Takahashi's 3F< with 3.27 - that difference of 3.67 point is the value of Chan having landed a clean 2A instead of bailing on it. By Takahashi not completely rotating (which was the call, even though some debate it), he gave back the error that Chan had on the 2A. Of course, the fall looks worse, but they both made the "same" error, points-wise.

Why you forget Hanyu's amazing SP and wr ,there are 2 programs in competition right?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Why you forget Hanyu's amazing SP and wr ,there are 2 programs in competition right?

I don't forget that. That was a brilliant program, and one of the best SPs in history (certainly the best score-wise). That's the reason he won, and I don't deny that Hanyu should have definitely won in Sochi.

But was it an Olympic win worth jeering about? No, not really... nobody skated well. Chan would have been much happier with gold, but I don't think he would have liked it if he had won it with several errors. 2013 Worlds was a big win from him, but he knew very well that his FS wasn't worthy of a World Champion even though his SP was. Same goes with Hanyu - SP worthy of an Olympic Champion, FS definitely not worthy of one.

But it's funny you say there are 2 programs in a competition, when people seem to forget that the SP was essentially what won 2012 Worlds for Chan over Dai. Under 6.0 I absolutely think Dai should have won 2012 Worlds (2nd instead of 3rd in the SP, 1st instead of 3rd in the LP), but under CoP when you look at the executed content in BOTH programs and the associated points, it's pretty obvious that it wasn't robbery the way people are whining.

Although it's not like Hanyu skated a brilliant SP to earn the win over Machida - in fact the very opposite where Machida had a perfect SP to Hanyu's SP with a UR fall, followed by both essentially skating perfect FS with 2 quads/2 axels, and Hanyu still winning. I feel under 6.0 it would have been Machida winning the SP and a split panel deciding the winner of the LP (although I'm guessing Hanyu at 5.9/5.9 would have won out barely over Machida 5.9/5.8 with higher artistic marks even though I thought Machida perfomed better and had less scrappy jumps).

 

[Interspectator]

I don't forget that. That was a brilliant program, and one of the best SPs in history (certainly the best score-wise). That's the reason he won, and I don't deny that Hanyu should have definitely won in Sochi.

But was it an Olympic win worth jeering about? No, not really... nobody skated well. Chan would have been much happier with gold, but I don't think he would have liked it if he had won it with several errors. 2013 Worlds was a big win from him, but he knew very well that his FS wasn't worthy of a World Champion even though his SP was. Same goes with Hanyu - SP worthy of an Olympic Champion, FS definitely not worthy of one.

But it's funny you say there are 2 programs in a competition, when people seem to forget that the SP was essentially what won 2012 Worlds for Chan over Dai. Under 6.0 I absolutely think Dai should have won 2012 Worlds (2nd instead of 3rd in the SP, 1st instead of 3rd in the LP), but under CoP when you look at the executed content in BOTH programs and the associated points, it's pretty obvious that it wasn't robbery the way people are whining.

Although it's not like Hanyu skated a brilliant SP to earn the win over Machida - in fact the very opposite where Machida had a perfect SP to Hanyu's SP with a UR fall, followed by both essentially skating perfect FS with 2 quads/2 axels, and Hanyu still winning. I feel under 6.0 it would have been Machida winning the SP and a split panel deciding the winner of the LP (although I'm guessing Hanyu at 5.9/5.9 would have won out barely over Machida 5.9/5.8 with higher artistic marks even though I thought Machida perfomed better and had less scrappy jumps).

is it possible for judges to calculate their scores exactly so that Hanyu could get ahead by a .003 margin? like, 'hmmm, let's see, if I give a point in GOE here, then that will give Hanyu the edge.' In such a close finish, it seems that the judges simply put the scores they think were deserved.

I was actually there, live, watching this competition, I thought it was Hanyu who performed the best that night. Though I'm biased so take that as you will.

Hanyu's program was also more COP friendly than Machida's Firebird of that season.

In any case, it could have gone either way, but the chance fell to Hanyu, by a .003 margin.

We digress though, the topic is not who has the most controversial wins, but any sort of predictions about Chan and Hanyu in the coming season.

Yuzu almost never does well in the first part of the GP series so I'm going to be very worried all the way till the GPF. After that, I think he'll get his very difficult program together and somehow win the GPF. At worlds though, who can say?

 

[Pika]

Please CanadianSkaterGuy.... I understand the point your defending but don't try to sell us an Olympic gold can be "not nice" ... Of course Hanyu was not happy with his performance, but he didn't (and no one would) spit on the medal... Of course the competition was horrendous, but in fact, the tendency in the men field is now "who won't be the worst" and you know it. The fact is also than in 50 years, nobody will remember something except what's wrote in the books, the final result. Which will probably happen for 2012 and 2013 too, but a reputation (-> inflation), is maybe less easy to forget, as the scandals that make te renown of our sport...

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Although it's not like Hanyu skated a brilliant SP to earn the win over Machida - in fact the very opposite where Machida had a perfect SP to Hanyu's SP with a UR fall, followed by both essentially skating perfect FS with 2 quads/2 axels, and Hanyu still winning.

You keep repeating the 2quads/2 3Axels, but at the end Hanyu had +5 points in BV over Machida in the LP. Were those points undeserved? Those 5 points are the main reason he managed to scrap the win at all, since his LP PCS weren't even a point higher than Machidas (who btw also had some pretty tight landings).

In comparison, in 2012 Daisuke actually had a higher BV than PChan overall, and lost the title because of PCS. Now if you couple that with the fact PChan had more visible mistakes than Daisuke I think it's quite obvious why for most people 2012 is more questionable than 2014 (plus the winning margin of Chan being way higher than Hanyus lucky 0.03).

 

[HanDomi]

Can we just focus on Hanyu vs Chan 15/16 ? becuase we are starting to get into thread war

 

[MaxSwagg]

Chanyu gets everyone riled up.

 

[Jaana]

The title of this thread should be Chan vs. Hanyu / Fernandez / Ten (or in what ever order) in 2015-2016, in my opinion.

 

[evangeline]

Also, the crowd in the 2012 FS were clearly classless in booing (booing for a skater getting hosed by the judges is fine, but when a skater is the only one to lay down two clean quads (to Takahashi's 1 quad) and their only major mistake is to fall on a 2A... that's ridiculous).

You're being very misleading when you describe Chan's 2012 LP as his "only major mistake is to fall on a 2A." Chan didn't even manage a 2A, it was a terrible 1A at most (i.e. a waxel) with a major and disrupting fall, and he also doubled his 3S in the 3Lz-1Lo-3S combo, nearly falling out of it. He was also obviously behind the music during the latter 1/2 of the LP as well as a result of his mistakes. The problem was that Takahashi and Hanyu had both skated their hearts out with cleaner LPs and bought down the house with 2 standing ovations before Chan. Maybe the crowd would've been pacified if Takahashi or Hanyu had placed ahead of Chan in the LP but lost overall because of the SP, but that didn't happen.

However, the crowd in Nice still shouldn't have booed Chan so vociferously. He doesn't give himself the scores and it's very unfair to blame him.

 

[MaxSwagg]

The title of this thread should be Chan vs. Hanyu / Fernandez / Ten (or in what ever order) in 2015-2016, in my opinion.

Javi is not at the level (or shouldn't be getting scores at the level) of Yuzu or even Denis for that matter...

 

[evangeline]

Javi is not at the level (or shouldn't be getting scores at the level) of Yuzu or even Denis for that matter...

PCS-wise, Fernandez may not be quite at the level of some of the others mentioned in this thread, but it's difficult to discount a man who goes for and has landed 3 quads in his LP, and who is probably going to add a second quad to his SP. Plus now that Fernandez is the reigning WC, his PCS will probably get a nice bonus.

 

[Mathman]

in fact, the tendency in the men field is now "who won't be the worst"…

The shame is that this seems to be fine with the ISU -- Full steam ahead!

 

[HanDomi]

PCS-wise, Fernandez may not be quite at the level of some of the others mentioned in this thread, but it's difficult to discount a man who goes for and has landed 3 quads in his LP, and who is probably going to add a second quad to his SP. Plus now that Fernandez is the reigning WC, his PCS will probably get a nice bonus.

I don't know what kind of bonus he can get as his PCS is already over the top compared to Hanyu and Chan and even Ten. I like him but really for skater on this level he has quite weak SS compared to Chan and Hanyu

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

You keep repeating the 2quads/2 3Axels, but at the end Hanyu had +5 points in BV over Machida in the LP. Were those points undeserved? Those 5 points are the main reason he managed to scrap the win at all, since his LP PCS weren't even a point higher than Machidas (who btw also had some pretty tight landings).

In comparison, in 2012 Daisuke actually had a higher BV than PChan overall, and lost the title because of PCS. Now if you couple that with the fact PChan had more visible mistakes than Daisuke I think it's quite obvious why for most people 2012 is more questionable than 2014 (plus the winning margin of Chan being way higher than Hanyus lucky 0.03).

Higher BV yes (you forget that Chan had 2.1 higher BV in the SP, though), but Chan had higher GOE (particularly on his quad jumping passes) which made up for that... with 5 points higher BV, and with Chan falling, Dai and Chan still ended up with similar TES scores. Other than his first 3A, Dai didn't have more than +1.00 GOE added to any of his jumping passes -- Daisuke's total GOE on jumps was just +2.74 points. Chan's total GOE on jumps was +7.99 points. Dai's 4T got 0.14 GOE, Chan's/Hanyu's got 2.43.

If we're talking SP, Chan had BV of 41.4 and Dai had 39.3 (a difference of 2.1). But Chan again with higher GOE got 2.81 higher TES scores. Dai's score was particularly compromised by the -3's of the 3T<< being applied to his 4T (which I don't agree with but that's the points system). If he had left that nice quad alone, that would have got him about 11-11.5 points for the opening pass instead of 8.74, and then adding the 3T to the 3Z later on with no error (which I'm sure he practiced in case he missed the quad) would have gotten him about 10.7 points instead of 7.3. Right there he could have made up about 6 points. And of course, there's the 3F< in the FS which lost him about 3.4 points. So, while of course, the judges hosed Takahashi for PCS, Takahashi didn't have the GOE of Chan, didn't have the extra quad of Chan, and made errors that are costly in terms of points under IJS.

Visible mistakes in the FS, yeah, Chan had one (maybe 2 if you consider the minor foot down at the end of the series). But "visible mistakes" aren't what counts under IJS - otherwise many would say Dai did a "perfect" Worlds 2012 SP because to the audience he didn't make any obvious error on the 4-3 (this was unfortunately a tendency with Dai's jumps as they regressed in the later years of his career - he would skate clean but get downgrades/URs, so visibly "clean" programs actually lost him lots of points technically). As I said though, errors like URs/<< weren't as severe under 6.0 so Daisuke definitely would have won 2012 Worlds if under 6.0 but the IJS rules are detrimental to him because they not only catch his rotation errors, they also give more grade of execution to Chan (whereas under 6.0 it probably wouldn't have made much difference, Chan's jumps being better quality than Daisuke's, as long as Dai went clean or looked like he went clean).

We've seen it with other skaters like Kanako or Mirai - give a seemingly clean skate but then get nailed with URs, and the audience might boo because they think the skater went clean, but technically speaking the skater made many errors which would be reflected by the points.

 

[yuki]

Visible mistakes in the FS, yeah, Chan had one (maybe 2 if you consider the minor foot down at the end of the series). But "visible mistakes" aren't what counts under IJS - otherwise many would say Dai did a "perfect" Worlds 2012 SP because to the audience he didn't make any obvious error on the 4-3 (this was unfortunately a tendency with Dai's jumps as they regressed in the later years of his career - he would skate clean but get downgrades/URs, so visibly "clean" programs actually lost him lots of points technically). As I said though, errors like URs/<< weren't as severe under 6.0 so Daisuke definitely would have won 2012 Worlds if under 6.0 but the IJS rules are detrimental to him because they not only catch his rotation errors, they also give more grade of execution to Chan (whereas under 6.0 it probably wouldn't have made much difference, Chan's jumps being better quality than Daisuke's, as long as Dai went clean or looked like he went clean).

Why are you talking about BV + GOE (i.e. TES) when in 2012 they were basically tied in TES (88.56 Patrick vs. 88.16 Daisuke) and Patrick won the FS by receiving almost 5 points more in PCS?
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2012/SEG006.HTM

 

[TheGrandSophy]

Enh. An Olympic gold medal is nice, but only if you skated well for it. Hanyu won but even he himself knows it was the best of a horrendous men's competition, and said so himself that he's looking to improve on that performance in Sochi.

Also, the crowd in the 2012 FS were clearly classless in booing (booing for a skater getting hosed by the judges is fine, but when a skater is the only one to lay down two clean quads (to Takahashi's 1 quad) and their only major mistake is to fall on a 2A... that's ridiculous). That reaction was also clearly ignorant of what happened in the SP, as Chan had created a sizeable lead over Takahashi who downgraded his combo.

But of course, crowds pay attention to the segment they're attending and not the whole competition (although it's justifiable that they would be upset with Chan winning the LP, when he should have lost that). And they aren't privy to things like UR calls and GOE.

I mean, Chan's 3F was 6.93 points to Takahashi's 3F< with 3.27 - that difference of 3.67 point is the value of Chan having landed a clean 2A instead of bailing on it. By Takahashi not completely rotating (which was the call, even though some debate it), he gave back the error that Chan had on the 2A. Of course, the fall looks worse, but they both made the "same" error, points-wise.

Eh, I think the crowd were booing (and I'm not saying they should have) because they were still buzzing from the electric performance of Dai and Patrick's was not that exciting. I watched it on screen of course, but you could practically touch the atmosphere. The tension just ratcheted up and up with that performance. By the time, Camerlengo was banging on the boards, it was like Dai was just dancing for fun and the crowd were with him. You can't expect them to sit calculating flipping base levels. They just 'felt' the winning performance and to be honest I can't blame them.