Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16
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I think with the flamenco choreography he can show better interpretation, technically he is good and consistent.
I hope Najarro did double effort with this choreography because Javi is world champion and his compatriot
. About Yuzu and Patrick I prefer Patrick but being realistic Yuzu has better reputation and his layout is impressive.
Anyway, I hope Denis win worlds
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Interesting that you mention the reputation, because personally, it's something I've never been able to decide on and was sort of waiting for the season to begin to see. Who would be considered to have a better reputation (at least in the judges eyes): a three-time world champion, or an Olympic champion? :think: I would guess they're about the same but I don't know.
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They have equal reputations now, I think. It's a transitionary period. E.g. 50% of judges prefer Patrick, 50% prefer Yuzu. Lol
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Oh come on. Hanyu isn't THAT over scored.
"Falling everywhere" is apparently enough for silver on the GP and erring on every quad attempt is good enough for silver at Worlds.
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While Dai is in a performance and interpretation class of his own, his jumps are quite inferior to Hanyu and his skating skills compared to Chan are above average but not the best.
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Actually I think @Leonardo meant Patrick Chan in most overscored skater ever, mentioning season 2012/2013
am I mistaken ?
Actually I think @Leonardo meant Patrick Chan in most overscored skater ever, mentioning season 2012/2013
I'm thinking along the same line as you, but I suppose some just couldn't resist to bring up the CoC incident whenever they can
And as for 15Worlds, shame about the quads but Hanyu did manage to hold the rest of his program with two strong 3A combos in the 2nd half. All I can say is not everyone can afford to make up for the lost quad points this way
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CanadianSkaterGuy knew who Leonardo was talking about, he was just being sarcastic.
As for the CoC accident, I'd say it says more about the dumb ISU system than Hanyu's overscoring.
As for the CoC accident, I'd say it says more about the dumb ISU system than Hanyu's overscoring.
I miss Daisuke, is there no chance of him returning to competition?
"The most overscored skater of all time" was a very respectable title Chan got over the years (and actually was voted for this title in many FS forums) for becoming world champion 2 times with horrible free skates over better and cleaner performances. And sorry, but karma got to Patrick. There is a new judges' pet now, but he is much more mentally tough and talented than Patrick ever was. And the olympic gold medal was just the beginning. :yay:
As the new supreme's power grows stronger, the old one's get weaker.
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How did Karma get to Patrick? He still has the world record and 3 world titles. Also you might need to be reminded that the judges were scoring him, and Patrick wasn't scoring himself.
And who cares if forums (as if he gives a damn about what his internet haters have to say, lol) voted him some title of being overscored? Much to your chagrin, I'm sure, Patrick still has the WORLD RECORD score (FS and Total) and 3 World Titles in a row. So, ":yay:" you. As far as the new supreme's power growing stronger -- going from a season with 2 GP silvers, a GPF gold, Olympic gold, and Worlds gold to a season with a GP silver and 4th, GPF gold, and World silver... mmmhmm.. stronger... riiiight. Well, I suppose Hanyu's PCS has gotten stronger, such that like Chan, he can afford multiple falls -- although I can't ever recall Chan being gifted 84 PCS with 5 falls (which is greater overscoring than ANYTHING Chan or any other skater for that matter ever benefitted from), so maybe Hanyu's power IS getting stronger than Chan's.
Not to mention, Hanyu's World title (2 more and he's caught up to Patrick!!!) should have very arguably gone to Machida, but overscoring won it for Hanyu (one judge actually gave him a 10.00 for execution, lol). Machida: two essentially clean programs with 2 quads in his FS (just a slight loop error), and still loses to Hanyu with an SP with an UR quad fall (that still somehow earned 91 points, over many clean skates at that), and a FS with sloppy landings. Even with questionable wins, Patrick still executed quads -- Hanyu this year managed to get Worlds silver without executing any of his 3 quads cleanly - stepout which was almost a fall in the SP; 2S and a 4T(fall) in the FS (but hey, his triple axels are gorgeous, so silver over Ten is justified, right? -- and even with not a single clean quad he still almost beat Fernandez who landed 3 quads in the competition).
As far as horrible freeskates, what was "horrible" about Chan's 2012 FS? He landed 2 quads, and a 3A - the only man in the competition to so do, mind you. His only errors were turning a 3S into a 2S (which was a loss of points, but isn't exactly a "huge error" aesthetically, otherwise we can argue that Ten made 2 "huge errors" in his 2013 Worlds FS with the 2F+2T), and the one major error - a fall on his final 2A. And let's not forget Hanyu became Olympic champion with a "horrible freeskate", and won silver at CoC with a SP with a tripled quad and a lutz error/no combo and then did a FS 5 falls to end up 2nd - to use your words - over better and cleaner performances (Ge/Dornbush/Nguyen). Although I suppose with Hanyu you'll acknowledge his high difficulty and competitor errors as "rationale" for placing ahead of those guys, but will ignore Chan's high difficulty and errors Chan's competitors with lower difficulty made at the Worlds where Chan won. :sarcasm:
Bottom line: both are overscored, and will be overscored this season, but at least the PCS gap has closed such that others like Ten and Fernandez at least have a chance of beating them. But hopefully no more judging fiascos like 2013 Worlds or 2014 Worlds or 2014 Cup of China.
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I was looking at the clock to see how long before ^^^ will be posted
Can't wait for the season to start. With yuzu layout, I'm going to age another 10years. Gambatte to all skaters.
Can't wait for the season to start. With yuzu layout, I'm going to age another 10years. Gambatte to all skaters
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How did Karma get to Patrick? He still has the world record and 3 world titles. Also you might need to be reminded that the judges were scoring him, and Patrick wasn't scoring himself.
And who cares if forums (as if he gives a damn about what his internet haters have to say, lol) voted him some title of being overscored? Much to your chagrin, I'm sure, Patrick still has the WORLD RECORD score (FS and Total) and 3 World Titles in a row. So, ":yay:" you. As far as the new supreme's power growing stronger -- going from a season with 2 GP silvers, a GPF gold, Olympic gold, and Worlds gold to a season with a GP silver and 4th, GPF gold, and World silver... mmmhmm.. stronger... riiiight. Well, I suppose Hanyu's PCS has gotten stronger, such that like Chan, he can afford multiple falls -- although I can't ever recall Chan being gifted 84 PCS with 5 falls (which is greater overscoring than ANYTHING Chan or any other skater for that matter ever benefitted from), so maybe Hanyu's power IS getting stronger than Chan's.
Not to mention, Hanyu's World title (2 more and he's caught up to Patrick!!!) should have very arguably gone to Machida, but overscoring won it for Hanyu (one judge actually gave him a 10.00 for execution, lol). Machida: two essentially clean programs with 2 quads in his FS (just a slight loop error), and still loses to Hanyu with an SP with an UR quad fall (that still somehow earned 91 points, over many clean skates at that), and a FS with sloppy landings. Even with questionable wins, Patrick still executed quads -- Hanyu this year managed to get Worlds silver without executing any of his 3 quads cleanly - stepout which was almost a fall in the SP; 2S and a 4T(fall) in the FS (but hey, his triple axels are gorgeous, so silver over Ten is justified, right? -- and even with not a single clean quad he still almost beat Fernandez who landed 3 quads in the competition).
As far as horrible freeskates, what was "horrible" about Chan's 2012 FS? He landed 2 quads, and a 3A - the only man in the competition to so do, mind you. His only errors were turning a 3S into a 2S (which was a loss of points, but isn't exactly a "huge error" aesthetically, otherwise we can argue that Ten made 2 "huge errors" in his 2013 Worlds FS with the 2F+2T), and the one major error - a fall on his final 2A. And let's not forget Hanyu became Olympic champion with a "horrible freeskate", and won silver at CoC with a SP with a tripled quad and a lutz error/no combo and then did a FS 5 falls to end up 2nd - to use your words - over better and cleaner performances (Ge/Dornbush/Nguyen). Although I suppose with Hanyu you'll acknowledge his high difficulty and competitor errors as "rationale" for placing ahead of those guys, but will ignore Chan's high difficulty and errors Chan's competitors with lower difficulty made at the Worlds where Chan won. :sarcasm:
Bottom line: both are overscored, and will be overscored this season, but at least the PCS gap has closed such that others like Ten and Fernandez at least have a chance of beating them. But hopefully no more judging fiascos like 2013 Worlds or 2014 Worlds or 2014 Cup of China.
Ok, lets agree that Patrick win in 2012 was the same level or even more questionable than Hanyu win in 2014 , and I really well remember how people were excited for 2 Japanese skater and applauded them widely, while they were not that enthusiastic about P, (Don't tell me that Chan isn't loved in France) and what about 2013 ? It was even more quastionable, Patrick with his "majestic falls win over foot perfect Denis..So, I do agree that judges are loyal to some skaters and to Hanyu too, but it is way far from Chan's level of overscoring, note that I am not a hater of Chan or something, I do respect his superior skating skills, just when people say that Hanyu is overscored in a thread Chan VS Hanyu it is so funny, anyways forget the past and lets wait what happens, Chan needs to be absolutely clean to cover Hanyu's TES and we don't know how judges will welcome him, a whole box of 95 ish PCS or less....
if Hanyu were chan fernandez would have got silver
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I was looking at the clock to see how long before ^^^ will be posted
Can't wait for the season to start. With yuzu layout, I'm going to age another 10years. Gambatte to all skaters
Hah, things were a bit too vanilla in this thread anyways.
I can't wait for the season to begin too! Hoping Hanyu can have a better GP and Chan can come back after a whole year away.
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Yuzuru never had any controversial win, Close win? Yes with Machida But he won with a clean free skate with two different quads and 2 triple axels, first time a skater landed 2 quads and 6 triples, Patrick won WC 2 times with bad skates and Sochi: Patrick could have won without a quad, He didn't need to land any quad, just skate clean, They could have given the gold to him because Yuzuru had a bad skate, Who told Patrick to mess up even the 2A? Attacking to justify Patrick's controversial wins is not making Patrick and his fans look better actually
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Ok, lets agree that Patrick win in 2012 was the same level or even more questionable than Hanyu win in 2014 , and I really well remember how people were excited for 2 Japanese skater and applauded them widely, while they were not that enthusiastic about P, (Don't tell me that Chan isn't loved in France) and what about 2013 ? It was even more quastionable, Patrick with his "majestic falls win over foot perfect Denis..So, I do agree that judges are loyal to some skaters and to Hanyu too, but it is way far from Chan's level of overscoring, note that I am not a hater of Chan or something, I do respect his superior skating skills, just when people say that Hanyu is overscored in a thread Chan VS Hanyu it is so funny, anyways forget the past and lets wait what happens, Chan needs to be absolutely clean to cover Hanyu's TES and we don't know how judges will welcome him, a whole box of 95 ish PCS or less....
Chan in 2012:
SP: slight error on the exit of his quad, but nails the 3A and 3-3 (essentially a clean SP, but sub-90 points)
FS: mistakes were a 3S on a series turned into a double (which other than the points loss isn't a huge error; it's like turning a 3F+3T into a 3F+2T); 2A bailed out
Chan manages to defeat Takahashi who had a downgraded quad combo in his SP, and a FS with a 3F< and just one quad attempt; and defeats Hanyu who had a bad SP and a FS with a fall and just one quad attempt too. I will say that Chan shouldn't have won the FS, Dai deserved about 3-4 points higher PCS, but should have won overall.
Hanyu in 2014:
SP: UR quad with a fall
FS: scrappy/forward landings but no major errors
Manages to defeat Machida who has a clean SP and a FS with 2 quads and a stepout on the loop
I dunno. In both cases each one had a major fall (Chan in his FS, Hanyu in his SP). The difference is that Machida made fewer significant errors than Daisuke, and had the difficulty as well (a FS with 2 quads and 2 axels). I think Dai was underscored PCS-wise, but so was Machida. Of course, in both cases as well, those people who say Dai was robbed and Machida wasn't likely neglect the performances of Chan/Takahashi & Hanyu/Machida in the short program. Neither competitions are truly questionable, like 2013 Worlds, but it's funny how people keep saying Chan's 2012 Worlds was robbery because of a 2A<</fall over a skater who has a << and a < and one quad instead of Chan's two, yet seem to be fine with Hanyu winning with a quad UR/fall over a skater with a 3L stepout but 2 quads/2 axels. It's funny, because if Chan completely omitted the final 2A altogether, or even singled it, he would have won with more points and people would have been fine with the win.
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Yuzuru never had any controversial win, Close win? Yes with Machida But he won with a clean free skate with two different quads and 2 triple axels, first time a skater landed 2 quads and 6 triples, Patrick won WC 2 times with bad skates and Sochi: Patrick could have won without a quad, He didn't need to land any quad, just skate clean, They could have given the gold to him because Yuzuru had a bad skate, Who told Patrick to mess up even the 2A? Attacking to justify Patrick's controversial wins is not making Patrick and his fans look better actually
And again, my point proven, you completely neglect Hanyu's SP with a UR fall and Machida's perfect SP -- Hanyu even received higher PCS, 45.50 with a UR fall (something Patrick NEVER received). That's the reason Machida should have won. And frankly, I preferred Machida's FS with cleaner landings and nicer quads
Also, it's ridiculous to suggest Patrick didn't need his quads to win in Sochi; Hanyu still scored 179 points with 2 falls and had a perfect SP which gave him a 4 point lead already.
Also, I don't think Patrick deliberately messed up his 2A... who "told" Hanyu to turn his 4S into a 2S at 2015 Worlds, or who "told" him to fall while skating around in his 2012 Worlds LP? I mean, come on - skaters try their best and errors are inevitable, even silly ones.
Final also, Hanyu wasn't the first time a skater landed two quads and 6 triples. I'm sure Yagudin/Plushenko would have something to say about that. And Goebel/Reynolds, having done 3 quads and 5 clean triples.
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How did Karma get to Patrick? He still has the world record and 3 world titles. Also you might need to be reminded that the judges were scoring him, and Patrick wasn't scoring himself.
And who cares if forums (as if he gives a damn about what his internet haters have to say, lol) voted him some title of being overscored? Much to your chagrin, I'm sure, Patrick still has the WORLD RECORD score (FS and Total) and 3 World Titles in a row. So, ":yay:" you.
lol, I bet he prefers an olympic gold medal around his neck than a world record score. He knows many many people (judges, specialists, journalists, fans and public) questioned his wins in 2012 and 2013, and he even spoke about it in interviews, something like "I'm so much better than anyone else, that's why I win with falls"...About his world titles in 2012 and 2013: He was booed by the crowd in 2012 during the scores, interviews and podium, I don't think I ever saw a skater get that kind of crowd reaction. Sure, a beautiful victory. But it's not surprising, I don't think many people love cocky arrogant skaters who are overscored and win world titles with huge falls and mistakes.
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