Changing Ice Dance Rules & Marina Anissina

[gmyers]

There is a dismissal of all the programs that won Olympics and Worlds in Ice Dance under 6.0 here. Skaters did do dramatic programs because there is dramatic music and dance to dramatic music. It was interpretive and it was decided by the judges that kind of programs were the best. Obviously they would change and then G&P won with an excellent rock and roll program in 94 and then in 98 came with a dance to a dramatic piece that was also really good. That is not dance to a lot of people and did not deserve any medals or wins but what is so inherently dance about a twizzle? It's always been adapting dance to ice and there has been changes. Skaters under COP are skating to music but spend most of the time doing elements and not really intepreting music which can be called dancing. Davis and White never really do anything with their music at all and get the highest scores on technical elements but as I wrote before there is nothing inherently "dancy" about the elements as they way they are done now. Lots of skaters do not want to take the interpreting of music out of ice dance and they are suffering. As they are coached by Z/S D/W and S/S in particular are bland nothings doing hard elments to music and maybe that is "Ice Dance" as defined by the ISU now but is kind of ridiculous.

 

[dorispulaski]

Today, if you group the federations whose teams are losing, and therefore would want a change, what rules do you think they would change? In the past, rule changes were initiated to respond to complaints. And the complaints were meant to highlight skills that the complainers felt their favorites excelled at, and the current winners did not excel at. So I think it is interesting to look at current complaints:

Complaints I have heard:

1. The programs are so busy, no one has time to be artistic.

This complaint was responded to in singles by introducing the choreography step sequence and the choreographic spiral sequence. So far, I can't say that any them have been particularly memorable, but that's the trouble with trying to promote art by giving freedom. They tend to get lazy. Since the choreographic step sequence is not high reward, it gets used for a resting space in the program. There are people who argue that actually the necessity to cope with restrictions is more likely to produce better poetry. It may be like that in other arts; I'm not an expert on the subject, but would like to hear opinions.

The shape of the rule change would be to eliminate skills from COP, thus leaving more sections of an ice dance program more free. Unfortunately, unless somehow those free sections have a mechanism for garnering high points, all they really provide is an opportunity for people to fall or fail in someway with no reward. This is why they end up being used as resting space.

2. There should be more moves in closer dance holds required. Dances are too open.

I'm thinking the result of such a change would backfire. It is more technically difficult to skate in close holds, and impacts speed. However, teams that are tripping all over themselves today will if anything do more poorly if dances have to be less open. Those asking for this rule should not necessarily expect teams that they support to be better at it than anyone else.

3. A desire for a rule to reward what the complainer regards as great posture, extension, and toe point, and better matching leglines.

I suppose this would end up changing the PCS structure. That's how it could be fitted into COP.

4. Bring back the CD and get rid of the SD. (Or bring back the OSP or the OD and get rid of the SD)

Personally, I'm all for this one, because I don't think anyone is particularly overjoyed with the current structure of the SD, and it has created very few interesting or even watchable dances. If the CD were brought back, it's possible it would be brought back with the levels and key points left in, the way they are in the SD. The most interesting part of the SD to me has been watching all the senior level skaters have to learn what the approved way to do a choctaw is, because there was a real dearth of good technique since the days of U&Z and K&P (and prior). Previously, the amusing part of twizzles and step sequences was watching how very few dance teams in the early days of the COP program could do 2 consequective twizzles in both directions properly. The weak partner of the team really was in trouble.

It went down hill slowly. There was a lovely (and funny) video on youtube showing B&K and G&P doing a CD. I believe it was the Golden Waltz, that revealer of everyone's flaws. B&K didn't have matching leglines, and G&P were not skating on the correct beats. The Canadian commentator was arguing that B&K skated on the correct beats and were therefore better. Amusingly enough, if that CD were graded in the current version of COP, G&P might lose a level due to not skating on the correct beats, but B&K would lose GOE points. The team that won would be the one that was faster, because their PCS would be higher. That of course would be G&P.

And that is the risk of rule change. No one deliberately writes a set of rules to reward bad technique and slow skating. In 6.0, things sort of evolved that way though.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

There is a dismissal of all the programs that won Olympics and Worlds in Ice Dance under 6.0 here. Skaters did do dramatic programs because there is dramatic music and dance to dramatic music. It was interpretive and it was decided by the judges that kind of programs were the best. Obviously they would change and then G&P won with an excellent rock and roll program in 94 and then in 98 came with a dance to a dramatic piece that was also really good. That is not dance to a lot of people and did not deserve any medals or wins but what is so inherently dance about a twizzle? It's always been adapting dance to ice and there has been changes. Skaters under COP are skating to music but spend most of the time doing elements and not really intepreting music which can be called dancing. Davis and White never really do anything with their music at all and get the highest scores on technical elements but as I wrote before there is nothing inherently "dancy" about the elements as they way they are done now. Lots of skaters do not want to take the interpreting of music out of ice dance and they are suffering. As they are coached by Z/S D/W and S/S in particular are bland nothings doing hard elments to music and maybe that is "Ice Dance" as defined by the ISU now but is kind of ridiculous.

There is a dismissal of all the programs that won Olympics and Worlds in Ice Dance under COP here. Skaters did do happy progragrams because there is happy music and dance to happy music. It was intepretetive and it was decided by the judges that kind of programs were the best....... Obviously they would change. V/M won in 2010 with an excellent classical piece and then by 2011 they skated to a Latin medley that was also really good. That is not dance to a lot of people and did not deserve any medals or wins but what is so inherently dance about over-the-top emoting? It has always been dance to ice and there has been changes. Skaters under 6.0 are skating to music but spend most of the time making extreme faces and not really interpreting the music technically which can be called sport. Lobacheva/Averbukh never really do anything with their music at all but get the highest scores on technical but as I wrote before there is nothing inherently "dancy" about the emotions as the way they are expressed now. Lots of skaters did not want to put the sport into ice dance and they are suffering. As they were coached by the top coaches of the day, Fusar-poli/Margaglio and Lobacheva/Averbukh in particular are vacuous nothings doing motions to music and maybe that was "Ice Dance" as defined by the ISU then but is kind of ridiculous.

 

[beabstress]

There are people who argue that actually the necessity to cope with restrictions is more likely to produce better poetry. It may be like that in other arts; I'm not an expert on the subject, but would like to hear opinions.

As a poet (I'm primarily a writer of sonnets) and a former English teacher, I'll speak to that! I find what you say to be absolutely true. A set form with restrictions presents a poet with what almost feels like a DARE: let's see what you can do with this. There's a real sense of accomplishment when, say, you want to express something with a two-syllable word, but the form demands a THREE-syllable word (sort of a silly example, but it has happened to me!). When you can make that work, and when the final result is better that what you originally *wanted* to create, it's amazing. Restrictions force you to make choices; then YOU have to force YOURSELF to make those choices appropriate, beautiful, and pleasing.

I truly do believe that absolute and total freedom--no restrictions at all--can be almost debilitating sometimes. When you're a creative person (and let's assume these choreographers and skaters all are, even if our personal tastes/styles don't match up with theirs) and have a bajillion ideas--with no one to say "no" to any of them--where do you start? How do you narrow it down?

 

[KKonas]

Doris as always brings up interesting points about the state of ice dance today. One thing not mentioned is the fact that a Canadian IOC member (can't recall his name off hand) was leading the effort within the IOC to kick ice dancing out of the OWG because he didn't consider it a "sport." Changes had to be made to the discipline for it to survive. Now we have more "technical" requirements and there is a greater appreciation for the sporting aspect of ice dance. Both partners have to be good skaters unlike previously when one partner could just "present" the stronger one. Twizzles are the most difficult turns in skating and are very difficult to do with speed, which is why so many skaters hate having to do them, because they can't do them well. I liked many programs/dance teams before IJS but think it is so much better now. Can it improve? Of course - and the more skaters work with dance pros as choreographers, it will continue to improve in presentation.

 

[dorispulaski]

KKonas, AFAIR, I agree (but I could be wrong there), Canada was the most aggressive country about protesting the ice dance judging & rules during the Anissina eras of ice dance, always complaining that Bourne & Kraatz were being unfairly judged. The opposite side of that was the push to get ice dance removed from the Olympics. Dick Pound, an IOC member from Montreal, Canada, was very important during that effort.


Here's an article from the UK in 2002:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/47...IOC-to-tell-sports-to-clean-up-their-act.html

One top International Olympic Committee official told me: "We need to look at sports like boxing. The person in charge should be summoned and told: clean up your sport or Athens will be the last time boxing will be in the Olympics."


International federations readily admit that they will have to examine their judging methods and concede that the IOC could exclude some sports. IOC member Gian-Franco Kasper, president of the Inter- national Ski Federation and of the Winter Sports Federation, told me: "The IOC have the right to decide which sports should be in the Olympics. It could exclude figure skating, but I do not think figure skating should be excluded. So many housewives like ice skating and it is a very old, traditional sport. As far as subjective judgement is concerned, we have it in ski jumping, but only 20 per cent is subjective. The remaining 80 per cent is measured and we can remove the 20 per cent."

I hope all of you fans who are not housewives are properly offended. And any of you who are housewives should be offended too. My mother, who was not employed outside the home, said she didn't marry a house and preferred the term homemaker.

One man who will have a critical role in any changes to future Games is Dick Pound, one of the most senior members of the IOC, who has been put in charge of a commission, due to report in November, who will look into the structure of future Games.

As already revealed by Telegraph Sport, Pound, a Montreal lawyer, played a crucial behind-the-scenes role in prompting IOC president Jacques Rogge to take a tough stand with the ISU. He was also the one who first floated the idea of awarding duplicate gold medals to his fellow Canadians as a way out of the crisis.

Pound has never hidden his distrust of sports such as ice dancing and he told me how, during the Nagano Winter Games of 1998, he had a row with an ISU official. Pound told the official that he could predict who would win the ice dance event, as the gold medal was won not on the ice, but in the committee room.

KKonas, thank you for reminding me of this, because it does affect any future changes that might be made in ice dance judging. All subjectively judged sports that want to be retained in the Olympics have to tread warily in creating rules that increase the subjectively judged part of their sport at the expense of the objectively judged, and hence more 'sporting" content of their sports. Ice dance has always been on "thin ice" with the Olympic committee, and while skating has been in the Olympics for the modern era, ice dance was only included as a full Olympic sport in 1976.

 

[blue dog]

Odd that it's not just Shpilband and Zoueva that are the ones "Americanizing" ice dance, but her former non-American rivals, like Anzhelika Krylova, Yevgeny Platov, Shae-Lynne Bourne, and Pasquale Camerlengo.

 

[dorispulaski]

Actually, now that KKonas has reminded me, I would say that really it is the Canadianization of ice dance that Marina Anissina should have been complaining about! The key players were Dick Pound of the IOC and David Dore, both from Canada. No Americans were key players, except possibly Scott Hamilton complaining about S&P's marks at the 2002 Olympics in pairs.

Americans just came along for the ride, and a great ride it has been. Thank you, Canada!

 

[CARA]

Actually, now that KKonas has reminded me, I would say that really it is the Canadianization of ice dance that Marina Anissina should have been complaining about! The key players were Dick Pound of the IOC and David Dore, both from Canada. No Americans were key players, except possibly Scott Hamilton complaining about S&P's marks at the 2002 Olympics in pairs.

Americans just came along for the ride, and a great ride it has been. Thank you, Canada!

Yeah, but America gets blame, anyway. :think:

 

[dorispulaski]

At least the blame from Anissina

 

[blue dog]

At least the blame from Anissina

She's just bitter LOL. Viktor Kraatz turned her down.

 

[gmyers]

Most of those people are based in Detroit. The whole nature of COP is being dominated by people in the United States. COP did not originate in the US but that doesn't mean there hasn't been an Americanizaiton of what kind of thing wins under COP. And I forgot to mention that a new scoring system didn't HAVE to be COP as it is now. The first post assumes COP was a logical switch from 6.0 and I don't think that is true at all.

 

[dorispulaski]

Well, something had to switch, as was clear in the article from the UK that I linked above in the thread, or ice dance was going to be thrown out of the Olympics if it didn't get some other system that appeared to the IOC to be more objective than the 6.0 system.

COP was the brainchild of the ISU-they didn't have any other proposed systems at the time the IOC was demanding more sportiness and objectivity from the subjectively judged sports, like ice dance. So COP it was.

However, COP is not some monolithic thing. In fact there have been 30 pages of changes or more to the ice dance rules for COP every year, and it costs me a significant amount of time to keep up with them each summer.

Indeed, at any time, the ISU could choose to change either the internal rules to COP, or choose to scrap COP entirely, but they still would have to maintain the appearance of a sport based objective judging system. Consequently, Anissina era style programs, where one member of the team is a weak skater, is unlikely to happen again.

On the other hand, Klimova/Ponomarenko, Usova/Zhulin, Torvill/Dean and Grishuk/Platov would have had winning results if they had competed under COP, given a year or two to train a very few skills (more complex lifts & twizzles).

However, I would not think that Fusar-Poli/ Margaglio would ever have been world champions under COP.

Which is all good

At the time COP went into place (2004), and up until the 2006 Olympics, the only team training in Canton that was at any elite level was Belbin and Agosto. So although the Canton & Detroit coaches are doing well at the top of the standings today, it is because the coaches in that area learned to exploit COP better than the coaches in Russia, Newark Delaware, Lyons, France, and at Astin Mills, PA, not because they created the system. They didn't.

The Russian coaches didn't create the COP for singles skating, but it is their young ladies poised to take over their discipline.

How did that happen when the US ladies' coaches had the most winners prior to 2006? It's because the US coaches have still not learned how to train our young ladies to jump off the correct edges, with power, and no underrotation, as COP requires. My guess is that because they had the winners under the old system, they thought they knew everything, but it is clear they did not.

The same is true of the Russian dance coaches who stayed in Russia and Linichuk here in Astin. They still have not caught up with the new system the way Zoueva & Shpilband and Krylova & Camerlengo have.

That is not the system's fault.

And it is worth noting that all of those 4 coaches were not Americans or Canadians when they learned ice dance.

 

[gmyers]

It is partially the systems fault. If it was 6.0's fault that the winners tended to look the same and a new system made new winners and shifted the continent of the winners than a different system would maybe go back again. D/S and B/A only came in third and 4th at the Olympics but all the teams 1-4 trained in north america. Then all teams that won medals and grand prix events except one all train in the same rink. All the same rink teams will probably win at worlds again. Maybe there is nothing wrong with all the teams Americanizing their ice dance and becoming all tech all the time with just a little attention paid to music and programs as how that conrasts to the past with teams being seen as all drama shows on ice. Maybe only one team can win a world medal that has no association with North America or doesn't seem to. B/S?

 

[dorispulaski]

Uhuh. Not so. In 2006, B&A won the silver medal at the Olympics. DelSchoes were 4th.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_at_the_2006_Winter_Olympics_–_Ice_dancing

In fact, Grushina & Goncharov (Ukraine, coached during the COP era by Morosov & Tarasova in CT, USA) were with Belbin & Agosto (coached by Shpilband in MI, USA), the first two teams to benefit by really understanding how to get high technical levels in COP.


This year, Worlds is in Nice. P&B have good programs, and I would be very, very surprised if they did not win at least the bronze. Of course, these days, they train with Krylova in Detroit, but that's new to them, since Zhulin in Moscow was forced to drop non Russian teams. That again is not the fault of COP, or Americans, or Canadians. If they falter, I expect the bronze to go to Bobrova & Soloviev. In fact, last year at Worlds, the Shibs bronze medal was as much due to severe flubs by B&S, P&B, and for that matter I&K as well as their own fine performance. I don't expect them to medal this year-but I expect them to train well, to learn from judges' input previous to worlds, and to skate as well as they possibly can. They might medal...if the others falter again.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

All right.

1. I find it interesting that a system that was the brainchild of an Italian (Cinquata was the one who wanted it way back in 1998/Nagano), that was designed by Canadians (doris doesn't mention Ted Barnes, who I believe was actually the architect behind the software), that saw two Russian teams win world titles (DomShabs, NavKost), along with a Bulgarian team (DenStav) and French team (DelShoes) BEFORE any North American team, and is currently dominated by one school made up of two Soviet ex-pats with American and Canadian citizenship is somehow derided as American (more humorously since the USFSA was a bit slow on the uptake re: COP).

2. Doris, your initial points are fascinating and worth exploring further, so I went back to the last big change: the end of figures. Now, my understanding is that one of the reasons figures were eliminated was that the smaller federations wanted them gone - too expensive to train them, etc. But examining the medals, there's actually very little shift towards the newer federations. The biggest change is how precipitously Germany (along with the UK) dropped from being one of the standards (Schramm, Witt, Poetsch) to not really a medal contender. Lu Chen was an explorer for China, but it was the pairs school that became dominant (and intriguingly, the new wave of Chinese single skaters actually skate like they've been doing figures)

 

[gmyers]

Look at the victory margins! It's not even close now as it was when COP began. DW and VM are so far ahead of everyone and it's not even compeitive except for bronze. There doesn't even seem to be a way for DW or VM to get below silver. The margins of victory are unprecedented and maybe if DW or VM would be beaten by P/B by a margin similar to what they are beaten by there would be no "Aemricanizaiton" charge. I would like to see a team tie VM or DW in score. Or just no team has their talent and they are not reachable. Is there more going on just then lack of skills from every other team in the world?

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I'd argue that the transfer of talent from Russia to the rest of the World is what did it. The big coaching schools in the USA and Canada have Russian members: Marina, Igor, Angelika, but even Yuri Razguliaiev of the Lane school. Evgeny Platov coaches in New Jersey, I believe. I mean, the crumbling of talent wasn't just in dance, but in pairs, mens and ladies.

Is there a specific program you would score equal to current day D/W or V/M, as skated?

 

[jcoates]

Look at the victory margins! It's not even close now as it was when COP began. DW and VM are so far ahead of everyone and it's not even compeitive except for bronze. There doesn't even seem to be a way for DW or VM to get below silver. The margins of victory are unprecedented and maybe if DW or VM would be beaten by P/B by a margin similar to what they are beaten by there would be no "Aemricanizaiton" charge. I would like to see a team tie VM or DW in score. Or just no team has their talent and they are not reachable. Is there more going on just then lack of skills from every other team in the world?

So is so called "Americanization" of ice dance about margins of victory or is it about the direction dance programs are taking in order to maximize chances of success under COP?

To my mind, margins of victory go in cycles in any sport. Sometimes the leaders in that sport are simply so far superior to the rest of the field that they are really just competing with themselves. It happens and eventually the tide turns. In football, both the NFC and AFC have have very long periods of near exclusive dominance in the Super Bowl in the last 30 years, especially the late 80s and 90s when virtually every game was a total blowout in favor of the NFC team by half time. Eventually, the AFC turned the tide in the late 90s and then had their own stretch of wins. In skating, T/D had massive margins of victory in their wins at Olympics, Worlds and Euros from 82-84. Yagudin had huge scores in SLC. Kwan grabbed 6.0s like they were free samples for a stretch at Nationals and even Worlds in 2003. K/P won worlds by huge margins in 89, but by the next season, were beaten by D/D in the FD and overall the following year. Losing by large margins can be a motivator to improve rather than a harbinger of future losses.

 

[gmyers]

I'd argue that the transfer of talent from Russia to the rest of the World is what did it. The big coaching schools in the USA and Canada have Russian members: Marina, Igor, Angelika, but even Yuri Razguliaiev of the Lane school. Evgeny Platov coaches in New Jersey, I believe. I mean, the crumbling of talent wasn't just in dance, but in pairs, mens and ladies.

Is there a specific program you would score equal to current day D/W or V/M, as skated?

All those people left their skating cultures and I believe that leaving the country and the federation and the traditions did matter. That they did not just leave the country but the culture of skating and a lot left for money and were willing to do whatever to make money and basically threw out their beliefs and just studied how to get points to get wins and more students and money. That if they stayed in Russia they would have worked more in the tradition of Russian skating. That is what the Russians complain about?

How about the 2010 GPF when DW only won by 9 over P/B? That has been the closest DW has come to losing.

So is so called "Americanization" of ice dance about margins of victory or is it about the direction dance programs are taking in order to maximize chances of success under COP?

To my mind, margins of victory go in cycles in any sport. Sometimes the leaders in that sport are simply so far superior to the rest of the field that they are really just competing with themselves. It happens and eventually the tide turns. In football, both the NFC and AFC have have very long periods of near exclusive dominance in the Super Bowl in the last 30 years, especially the late 80s and 90s when virtually every game was a total blowout in favor of the NFC team by half time. Eventually, the AFC turned the tide in the late 90s and then had their own stretch of wins. In skating, T/D had massive margins of victory in their wins at Olympics, Worlds and Euros from 82-84. Yagudin had huge scores in SLC. Kwan grabbed 6.0s like they were free samples for a stretch at Nationals and even Worlds in 2003. K/P won worlds by huge margins in 89, but by the next season, were beaten by D/D in the FD and overall the following year. Losing by large margins can be a motivator to improve rather than a harbinger of future losses.

.

They are both working together. The increasing elements at all costs is making the margins of victory go up and that is Americanization.

This is going on three seasons now! Huge wins by DW and VM and medaling by S/S at worlds is going for three seasons now and apparently no team by the judges is worthy of the top 2's PCS and can't get the GOE. Lots of teams get the levels but can't get the GOE or PCS.