Changing The Image Of Men's Figure Skating

[Tonichelle]

It's so funny if you put this way. I think the public is (not you, or the ardent fans) confused on those two different things, not Skate Canada. Those two things are separated but both need to be clarified.

I agree that SC (or Elvis and Debbie) is responding more to the biased idea of what 'gay' means... (it's that whole "girly man" thing from SNL, ya know?). Look how most gay men are portrayed in film and television... rarely do you see/remember the "strong" "less feminine" (for lack of a better term) gay man in the pop culture. They're all stereotypes (Philidelphia is the ONLY one that I can think of where this is untrue... but it's a biopic... it's not complete fiction... and I guess Will of Will and Grace? I don't know, never got into that show). There are some films that leaving you wondering if a character is or isn't... but it's never spoken outright if the man IS gay... the only way you can be sure, it seems, is by the stereotypical mannerisms.

SAme goes for gay women in, at least film, they're pretty "butch" (again lack of better term)... though television has been a bit kinder to them.

I, of course, am talking more mainstream/pop culture... not the indie films or whatever...


so in that way I see what SC is trying to do. But really all they're doing is digging the hole deeper.

 

[antmanb]

I agree that SC (or Elvis and Debbie) is responding more to the biased idea of what 'gay' means... (it's that whole "girly man" thing from SNL, ya know?). Look how most gay men are portrayed in film and television... rarely do you see/remember the "strong" "less feminine" (for lack of a better term) gay man in the pop culture. They're all stereotypes (Philidelphia is the ONLY one that I can think of where this is untrue... but it's a biopic... it's not complete fiction... and I guess Will of Will and Grace? I don't know, never got into that show). There are some films that leaving you wondering if a character is or isn't... but it's never spoken outright if the man IS gay... the only way you can be sure, it seems, is by the stereotypical mannerisms.

COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC WARNING!

There has been a lot of "queer theory" written about the portrayal of gay men on TV and in film. I suppose Brokeback Mountain is a film where both characters are not steroetypically camp or fem.

The theory (certainly in terms of television in the UK) is that gay men have to be portrayed as effeminate because it is non-threatening and mostly non-sexual, or where comments are made which are sexual they're female identifying comments so that straight men can look upon the guy as a girl, and women can identify with him as a "girlfriend". That way no-one is threatened by the inclusion of a gay male character on television, and as much as possible they are the camp funny or bitchy friend who provides laughter and/or advice on clothes/styling They certainly never have sex and are always friends with the female lead not the male lead!

The show "Queer as Folk" caused a huge rucuss over here (it was far more risque in the short 6 episdoe series that Russell T Davies did for tv here in 1996 than the version that was re-done for the US). Because the three main characaters were orindary guys who you wouldn't necessarily pick out as gay. One was extremely predatory sexually, the sex scenes were not for the faint hearted and one of the characters was a 15 year old school boy. That certainly blew the lid off more "real" gay culture and opened a lot of people's eyes.

Ant

 

[seniorita]

i continue off topic..I dont know how many versions there are, but is this the show of bbc and the characters were living in manchester? That was great although too serious, i liked nathan

 

[antmanb]

i continue off topic..I dont know how many versions there are, but is this the show of bbc and the characters were living in manchester? That was great although too serious, i liked nathan

That's the series, but I'm not sure if it aired on BBC channels outside of the UK but if i recall correctly the programme was commissioned by Channel 4 and aired on that Channel over here.

Ant

 

[Buttercup]

I never watched the original Queer as Folk, but I liked the first season of the American version. I know they toned things down a bit (most notably by making the teen character a bit older) but it was still quite a departure from how gays were usually portrayed on TV.

I'll add to the O/T with another movie in which the gay protagonists are not campy or effiminate: Yossi & Jagger - they're both army officers.

Back on topic, I think SC needs to stop making statements in the media until they can figure out what exactly they are trying to do. I get the feeling they're not staying on message because they aren't clear on what that message is.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Much of Queer as Folk had stereotype characters which main stream heteros can easily understand. It was Brokeback Mountain that blew their minds.

For gay comedy, La Cage Aux Folle, the French original, and not the overblown American one, shows married life of gays.

 

[viv]

In Germany, Queer as Folk was shown on TIMM TV, a gay TV station. I only saw the last episode by chance, and thought it quite funny.
The male main character of French TV series Clara Sheller also is gay and not stereotype. He doesn't get the boy in the end, though; Clara does.

 

[jennylovskt]

... the only way you can be sure, it seems, is by the stereotypical mannerisms.

This stereotypical mannerism is killing the men's figure skating.

Back on topic, I think SC needs to stop making statements in the media until they can figure out what exactly they are trying to do. I get the feeling they're not staying on message because they aren't clear on what that message is.

I agree that Mr. Thompson's statement and the video clip are controdicted. But I believe this

this

is the real intention. The number of boys enrolled in figure skating is declining. So Skate Canada thinks that it should do something which I think it's perfectly making sense.

 

[antmanb]

This stereotypical mannerism is killing the men's figure skating.

No it isn't! Men's skating has never been the big draw for the US, that is reserved for the baby ballerinas making pwetty movements in their pwetty dwesses on the ice.

Men's skating hasn't changed in recent times, it's not suddenly become more musical or artistic or other things that seemingly creep out the North American audience. The ratings for skating (even in Canada) have been going down and people aren't as interested anymore. Perhaps the uptake of skating is down because people don't have the disposable income to spend on this sport and there are far cheaper team sports you can encourage your child to go into.

The number of boys enrolled in figure skating is declining. So Skate Canada thinks that it should do something which I think it's perfectly making sense.

Changing skating or trying to promote it to the beer swilling, football watching butch men brigade is NEVER going to happen. I've said it before but it really is worth repeating. It doesn't matter what you do to skating, you will never appeal to that demographic. All you will achieve if you change the sport is alienating the original audience.

Ant

 

[jennylovskt]

No it isn't! Men's skating has never been the big draw for the US, that is reserved for the baby ballerinas making pwetty movements in their pwetty dwesses on the ice.

Men's skating hasn't changed in recent times, it's not suddenly become more musical or artistic or other things that seemingly creep out the North American audience.

The men's figure skating has never been changed much, but the public view on men's figure skating has gradually changed in, at least, the last 50 years. As I have said before, people are in general very sensitive and aware of gay issues now, which made them making the stereotypical assumptions, and they believe those stereotypical assumptions are the truth. I believe that "the stereotypical mannerism" is totally wrong.

Changing skating or trying to promote it to the beer swilling, football watching butch men brigade is NEVER going to happen. I've said it before but it really is worth repeating. It doesn't matter what you do to skating, you will never appeal to that demographic. All you will achieve if you change the sport is alienating the original audience.

Ant

Changing men's figure skating and Making public to understand men's figure skating and male figure skaters are completely different things.

 

[seniorita]

i dont get why men are not the favor discipline..it had to be the other way, people are used to ballerina's images on/off ice and dancing images (most cannot seperate pairs from ice dance) , so men could be the most uncommon and spectacular for general public and even from curiosity they should be interested. I suspect people who insist that this is girly sport have watched figure skating for just 2 mins.
When i listen to this, and i listen to this a lot especially since i come of a country with no figure skating history (or future), I feel like im in an allien bubble.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The young men in American Figure Skating take a back seat to the little girls dressed prettily in their sparkling dresses to keep the pagaent-like demeanor.

I agree it wont change the opinions of the Americans regarding their thoughts on Mens Figure Skating. It's much too late for that. However, it is nice to see Mao and YuNa bring a bit of sporting strength to the Women in Figure Skating.

 

[DragonPhoenix]

Changing skating or trying to promote it to the beer swilling, football watching butch men brigade is NEVER going to happen. I've said it before but it really is worth repeating. It doesn't matter what you do to skating, you will never appeal to that demographic. All you will achieve if you change the sport is alienating the original audience.

Ant

Exactly :agree:

Unless they change figure skating into just " ice jumping" or they try to make it more like speed skating or something.

They would do much better trying to promote figure skating to artists, musicians, dancers, opera lovers, classical musicians. The problem is that in the USA, that demographic is small.

 

[Medusa]

Unless they change figure skating into just " ice jumping" or they try to make it more like speed skating or something.

The question then would be - who the heck watches speed skating? I mean, outside of the Olympics, does anybody watch it? And even at the Olympics, aren't there a lot more people watching figure skating then there are who watch speed skating?

 

[i love to skate]

Changing men's figure skating and Making public to understand men's figure skating and male figure skaters are completely different things.

Very good point! I think many people jumped to conclusions very fast over what Skate Canada was trying to do and that is how things got so out of hand and misunderstood.

 

[DragonPhoenix]

The question then would be - who the heck watches speed skating? I mean, outside of the Olympics, does anybody watch it? And even at the Olympics, aren't there a lot more people watching figure skating then there are who watch speed skating?

My point is that if they wanted to promote to the crowd that Antman was refering to, they would have to make it appeal to what that crowd sees as more " manly " or " macho ". It wouldn't have to be "speedskating ". Just ANYTHING to make it as " manly " as possible.

Maybe they could change figure skating altogether into a new sport and call it " Power Jumping " or " Stamina Skating " or "Agressive Skating " or something like that.

Who knows. Whatever.

 

[Tonichelle]

This stereotypical mannerism is killing the men's figure skating.

HOW???? WHO???? Evan Lysacek - aka Mr. Macho - won the flipping World Championships this year... I don't see a rebound because a more macho skater won. Evgeny Plushenko didn't keep it afloat in this country.

Men's skating has NEVER been portrayed as a serious "man's" sport in the US. At least not in the more modern times - it did start out as a gentlemans sport waaaaaaaay back - but the ladies quickly took over (because we're awesome ).

I mean the whole reason IMG/Scott Hamilton came up with SOI was because he was let go from his Ice Capades contract because "male skaters don't sell tickets."

And really I don't think we're declining, we're just going back to where we were before the popularity spike in 1994 (because of the Tonya Nancy thing). It has nothing to do with gay men skating in the sport... stereotypically or otherwise.




and I'm sorry if It was felt that I was stepping over any bounds with my last post... I'm not up with all of the current shows, but just going by network television which is pretty much in EVERY home, more so than HBO or BBC and the like...

 

[antmanb]

The men's figure skating has never been changed much, but the public view on men's figure skating has gradually changed in, at least, the last 50 years. As I have said before, people are in general very sensitive and aware of gay issues now, which made them making the stereotypical assumptions, and they believe those stereotypical assumptions are the truth. I believe that "the stereotypical mannerism" is totally wrong.

I suppose then i'm scratching my head wondering what are stereotypical mannerisms and what makes them wrong? I know that scandanvian countries challenge steroetypes at every level, e.g. when very young children who are pre-school age learn about different jobs etc scandanavian books reverse roles and chop and change careers so that fathers stay at home to look after the house, women are carpenters, plumbers etc. Is this the kind of thing you mean? Because sometimes people are stereotypical - steroetypes exist because people behave in those ways.

Changing men's figure skating and Making public to understand men's figure skating and male figure skaters are completely different things.

They are, but the point I was making is no different. You can sit down one to one and try to reason with the "butch brigade" and they will never view men's figure skating as a manly sport or one in which they have any interest. And why on earth should they? People like what they like, they can choose any of a great number of higher, faster. longer sports. There's an elements of performance to figure skating, it is done to music and in costumes. These people will never, ever decide to watch it. Just as much as if the performance element of skating was taken away then i would no longer watch.

I wasn't saying that skate canada was talking about changing the sport, I just wonder why skating has to be "repackaged" or needs some PR stunt to make it appeal to a group of people who it will never appeal to.

Ant

 

[dancingqueen]

HOW???? WHO???? Evan Lysacek - aka Mr. Macho - won the flipping World Championships this year... I don't see a rebound because a more macho skater won. Evgeny Plushenko didn't keep it afloat in this country..

I’ve never thought Evan Lysacek as a Mr. Macho. Compared to football players and any other “macho” sport athletes, he looks thin, delicate looking athlete after seeing those athletes.

I only watch 400m men’s running for other sports because I have my favorite runner in it ( I thought he is a unique, artistic runner. ) , but only watch world championship and Olympics, and after watching it, when I watch men’s figure skating, it looks delicate, graceful sport. any of men’s skaters don’t look macho. This is my personal impression.

And those macho sports fans are already used to watch those kinds of “macho” athletes , and that’s what they like and maybe only like.
For them all of figure skaters men or women ,look feminine. And that’s not what they want to see.

 

[i love to skate]

I wasn't saying that skate canada was talking about changing the sport, I just wonder why skating has to be "repackaged" or needs some PR stunt to make it appeal to a group of people who it will never appeal to.

The organization is trying to draw in new viewers because viewership is down and the Olympics are coming up in our home country. Skate Canada is just trying to attract different people into the sport and get rid of some of the stereotypes that face skating (ie. it's not difficult, anyone can do it, it is a "wimpy" sport). They also are trying to draw more little boys into the sport as many fathers will not put their boys into figure skating because of the stereotypes I listed above.