Chinese Skaters' Age In Question

[Olympia]

Alas, I fear you're right. I know there have been proven instances in gymnastics. This is the kind of thing that bites everyone in the face. No one has to figure out how it puts rivals from other countries at a disadvantage. Plainly when their talented athletes have to stay home for age reasons or when they're edged off a podium, they lose out.

It puts Chinese athletes at a disadvantage, too. (1) In a judged sport, how can judges not be influenced by the worry that this pairs skater who can do a thrown quad looks as if she still has baby teeth? So the athlete might lose points. (2) The athlete could be more easily injured than an older skater. In this way, she will lose her chance to compete, say, as a seventeen-year-old, when her talent matures and could make her a skater for the ages instead of just for a season. (3) Fedeerations that value medals over the people who win them tend not to stick with a skater if her identity suddenly becomes controversial. Out she goes. There are plenty more waiting in the wings. Send her home.

Over the long term, this isn't really as profitable a strategy as it looks. I'll leave out any discussion of the U.S. to remain objective. But if you use Canada and Japan as proof, a system that nurtures both skaters and coaches over the years, waiting for the ripening moment in young skaters, has a better chance of producing a powerhouse dynasty. China knows this from its own experience, with Chen Lu (whom, ironically, they wanted to throw away when she faltered in the mid-1990s) and Shen and Zhao. I wish they'd see the light that ironically they already possess.

 

[Violet Bliss]

he federation controls the skaters. The ISU really has no direct control over who the federation employs. I can't see this as a plausible response

The ISU may refuse to recognize the Federation as is and re-institute a new one.

Though the situation prompted me to explain how confusing and disorganized birth registrations can be in China, I do want to emphasize two points. 1) I don't know anything the Chinese federaion has done or will say in this matter; and 2) I believe whatever action ISU will take about these allegations, the fact it's China is irrelevent in the decision, nor what has happened or alleged in any other sport in that country, or their political ideology, or any other allegations/memos against the nation in general. The same principle and treatment apply to any other nation.

I brought up Ben Johnson before. I find two things about Canada's reactions to his incident very unfair. One, it was unfair to first treat him as a Canadian hero and then sort of disowned him as an immigrant after the scandal broke. Two, it is unfair for all subsequent Canadian athletes to be guilty by association and burdened with extra self-consciousness, suspicions, and scrutinies for a long time. I do believe Canadian athletes are very clean as far as doping is concerned. My feelings about many other countries as far as cheating is concerned are quite different. Yet I believe in dealing with each case on its own facts, no matter which country and whatever else are aasociated with it in some people's mind.

 

[blue dog]

I also think that the ISU and IOC need to do more to validate ages BEFORE the competition. It's not fair to the other athletes to lose a chance to celebrate on the podium because an underage athlete is disqualified months later.

This is very true. I think the IOC's response to underage athletes competing was to institute the Youth Olympic Games--but, that competition doesn't garner the same publicity, prestige, and $$ the Olympics do. However, you're right--why the ISU and the IOC are not doing more stringent verification before the competitive seasons is beyond me. It would save the sport the unnecessary scandal.

 

[skatinginbc]

More than probably any poster on this thread (and yes, that includes the ethnic overseas Chinese who have never spent much if any time in the PRC), I know more about organizational systems in China and how they work--governmental, organizational, corporate. Methods, strategies, playbooks, culture. That comes from real world experience dealing with Chinese organizations, day in and day out, on their own turf. I live it and deal with it. Daily. The PRC plays by its own system internally, and they do try to "export" their common practices to international engagements whether political, economic, sport, or whatever. In the absence of any pushback from the other parties, Chinese officials will keep on doing what they want, even if it is not perceived as "fair" to other interests, by those other interests. Put another way, you can't give your Chinese counterparty a list of rules and regulations (or a contract) and just expect Honor System and self-policing to magically work. If the ISU believes it will, they are bigger suckers than I thought.

Unfortunately, you failed to get my point. You touched the ear of an elephant (i.e, the business dealings in China) while SkateFiguring depicted its legs (i.e., a growing interest in skating among the Chinese public, the importance of Chinese involvement in skating, etc.). For you to deny her credibility is like a blind man asking others who challenge his theory of a fan-shaped elephant to shut up. I believe you have lengthy experience dealing with Chinese organizations, day in and day out, but just as a blind man who happens to touch only the elephant ear grows more stubborn about his assumption as the frequency of the same observation increases, so a closed-minded person who has lengthy experience of the same thing becomes more, not less, biased. Say, if the international community wants to impose an economic sanction against US for its failure to observe environmental obligations, I want to hear what innocent Americans who will be influenced by it have to say. One claiming that he has too much experience with the Bush administration and so denying the credibility of others who speak for the American public is simply too narrow-minded. All of us are blind to a certain degree, one way or another; that is why we need a forum to hear what others have to say. Let our mind be not blind, Bigsisjiejie.

 

[antmanb]

Well, China has enough power in skating that it has a Grand Prix event. In the dim past, that event was Nations (or Sparkassen) Cup, held in Germany.

As a punishment for the Chinese federation, how about moving the Cup of China either to Korea or Australia or back to Germany for a while?

There are a couple of problems regarding moving the GP. This doesn't appear to be a formal sanction under the rules, so it could be deemed unfair or possibly be challenged in the Court of Arbitration for Sport, unless the ISU is free to move a GP whenever it likes.

One of the reasons for moving the GP at the time was, I think, a far more lucrative TV deal. Given the state of the economy my bet is that the best deal is still to be had in China (or possibly Korea), however, i'd bet the ISU would not be up for risking money over this.

Ant

 

[bsfan]

Not speaking for the Chinese federation but some other Chinese facts: Due to the One Child Policy, many Chinese families in the country do not report the births of their daughters, keeping them out of the system. They tend to surface at school age. As well, there are many casual adoptions arranged privately, especially among relatives. Many children are just passed on to the adoptive parents without registration.

These poor girls will never have the chance to learn figure skating. How many of them can go to school is a big question. Needly to say the chance for any of them to represent the country.

And we don't need to talk about general situation in this age issue. There are these 9 skaters with inconsistant ages. Can just find out what their background are like and talk specifically.

 

[Mathman]

I agree with SkateFiguring's original point, though. This is a specific offense against the ISU rules, and a specific recommended penalty is spelled out explicitly in the rules (as quoted by Oleada in post 61 above).

Once the facts have been established, the ISU should follow its own "sentencing guidelines": the Chinese Federation cannot participate in any ISU senior or junior championships for one year.

This penalty can be imposed whether or not it can be conclusively proved that the Federation officials have followed a deliberate road of deception. Even it the Federation maintains that the problem is just "poor bookkeeping," it is still a violation.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Well put, skatinginbc.

On the subject of how the Chinese operate in general: I know people who have spent many years being frustrated by endeavours in China as well as both Chinese and non-Chinese who are very successful doing business there and always getting fast and desirable rusults.

A person's mind and beliefs create more subjective realities than factors such as his/her race, culture, social economic class and environment, which offer opportunities to observe and experience his/her beliefs. People attract experiences by who they are, their beliefs, and their expectations of others. Their experiences then reinforce their beliefs. The US, for example, is a large, diverse and complex country. A Wall Street banker, a WASP housewife, a Muslim, an immigrant running a corner store, an academic, a home grown terrorist, a small town Southerner............will describe the USA very differently. China, with four times the population and a few thousands more years of history, is even more complex. To say they are mostly difficult and disrespectful of rules is like saying most gay people are flaming exhibitionists.

I have met both Chinese and non-Chinese who feel similarly in some ways as bsjj. Some are angry and frustrated while others are accepting and working comfortably within these parameters. I will not work with them. Their beliefs are their realities and I don't want to introduce such reality and obstacles into my projects. People associated with a project have different objectives and act differently for their own benefits. I want to benefit from the success of a project and to accomplish it as effectively as possible. Some people, OTOH, benefit from the process of the project. They will prolong the process as much as possible with no concern for its success. Their agenda and success are counter productive to mine. I don't need them when there are people who share my objectives and who are able to get things done efficiently. They have different realities from those others', even in China. A large population like China's include human characters of all varieties, just like whereever you are from.

I know an enterpreneur who has had many contacts including Chinese in China and in Canada. However, for over 10 years his contacts are low level people in terms of their abilities, character, and ambitions. As he struggled financially, he took on more dubious people and projects, bringing on more frustrations and desperation. I kept telling him that to attract high level contacts and projects, he needed to raise his own self worth, ambitions, and outlook. As he changed his thinking, he suddenly came into very high level international contacts and hugely profitable opportunites are coming to him, instead of him chasing after little and uncertain deals. Who you are attracts your relationships and experiences.

Yes, China is a very large elephant. Taking off the blinder and stepping back will offer a better view. Then you can choose to get back for a closeup look and feel of parts of interest. Or not.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Not speaking for the Chinese federation but some other Chinese facts: Due to the One Child Policy, many Chinese families in the country do not report the births of their daughters, keeping them out of the system. They tend to surface at school age. As well, there are many casual adoptions arranged privately, especially among relatives. Many children are just passed on to the adoptive parents without registration.

China is a country where very evident ultra modern technologies and images in urban centres are mixed with invisible centuries old customs and practices completely out of the expectation or even comprehension of Westerners, especially in the rural areas. Modernization is very uneven, but there are a lot of leapfrogging as people acquire newest technologies, without old items to replace. Thus, a remote shepherd living an ancient way of life may whisk out the newest cell phone as his very first telephone. They don't start from rotary models!

Oh, to answer one question about Bigsisjiejie, she is a woman. Jiejie means big sister in Chinese, an affectionate and respectful appelation bestowed on her by the Chinese she so dispises.

So true!:thumbsup:

These kids were found in various places, cities and/or countrysides. If they looked like to have potential, they'd be recruited by the local sports organizations, study, live, and train together from very young, and paid by government. It is a great opportunity for the kids. So many parents want their kids to have such a chance to be recruited into some programs like these. The government says children are the future of the country.

It's not very hard to understand that their original birthplaces and birthdates could possibly be mixed up somewhere and in someway, given that the system of registry for birth certificates was not well inforced. Some of them may have been born "illegally" and been hiden and concealed their ages by their parents because of the one child policy. Some of them may use Chinese calendar to register if they indeed register, some may use common western calendar. Some may customed to count their age one year older than his/her actual birthdate, some may count even two years older than it was. (Don't ask me why because I don't know. What I do know is that there were places where the age was counted two years older than actual age. Though, I've never heard any places where the age was counted younger than actual age.)

I don't know the inside stories of this latest controversy, neither do any of the posters on this thread and at GS.

Well put, skatinginbc.

:yes:Agree.

 

[Olympia]

To everyone with knowledge in this area: I feel I'm learning so much by reading your posts. Thanks for taking the time to explain so many issues in such a clear way.

I hope it's understood that when I express anger at this situation, it's not directed toward a people, a culture, or even a country. I have always worried about very young children placed in very demanding positions, from which other people benefit but not necessarily the children themselves. I stopped watching gymnastics except for occasional viewing during the Olympics for that reason. I love skating so much that I hope never to have to feel that way about it. This may be why I like ice dancing so much: it's no advantage to have a thirteen-year-old girl partnered with a twenty-year-old guy. However, I also love ladies' singles, and I hope to keep loving it without feeling that I'm watching some little girl destroy her body to please the grown-ups.

Hey, if I had my way, there wouldn't be any American football! It's dangerous even to adult players, let alone kids. (My compromise is that I just don't watch it.) So I'm an equal-opportunity disapprover.

Whatever the answer is to the age discrepancies, I hope they will come to a stop. I want to see China as a great skating power because it means that there are more people coming to the feast of figure skating. It makes skating more viable, and more international—which translates into more opportunities for us fans to watch it. It's a good thing! But if there are rules, they must be observed equally by all.

As a judged sport, skating is always a tricky business in terms of being straightforward and upfront. Even leaving out the issue of fairness, this loses fans, so it loses profit for all concerned. We have to make extra sure that our baseline rule is this: the ends don't justify the means.

 

[OS]

By the way you all, this discussion has been made the Sinanet News (Beijing)

http://news.sina.com.tw/article/20110218/4198487.html
Clearly, Big Brother is watching (Big Ge Ge)

------

Zhang Hao on the other hand reacted these recent 'age gate' talk at the 4CC conference dismissively, by quipped 'oh you reporters misses us so much you have to start tabloid stories'
http://news.sina.com.hk/news/22/1/1/2016450/1.html

even BBC China (LOL! Oh the craziness from just one post.)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/zhongwen/trad/china/2011/02/110216_china_skaters_age.shtml

Chinese figure skating figuration has since confirmed their age are real as reported. Zhang Hao expressed he is willing to show his ID card if necessaries. According to the Beijing Morning Times, he was flabbergasted at the accusations, and retorted 'If I change my age, would I do better?'
(source BBC)

The article claims the 'story' started from an international skating forum that has wrong information. (I presume both this and FSU)

-------------

It appears there are some in the China mainstream is trying to take this seriously and have expressed critical commentaries,

http://www.worldjournal.com/view/full_news/11436420/article-〈體壇視角〉年齡造假-要不得?instance=news_pics

, but on other hand there's a more practical, cultural and even social issues should be considered. China is still trying to catch up with the international standards. Problem occur due to imperfect information being passed from local / regional records to governmental and then to federation level. Also probably due to local culture that determines the short path to success, means rule bending is somewhat tolerated, but in the face of international fairness, it is hard to back out once you are in, for fear of punishment (punishment in China is no laughing matter.)

True age is unfortunately not a common occurrence within the sporting culture of China (and I'd even argue outside sporting culture, centuries ago scholars used to lie to get ahead to be enrolled in certain procedural exams to be qualified in xyz etc). Like the Junior Football team, apparent 2/3 are over age. 2009 Chinese Basket ball Junior team was highly questioned by the NBA. 2009 Chinese Ping Pong Junior team, 34.7% has inconsistent age. To really sort this out, China should look within itself more strictly to cultivate a culture of absolute truth according to international standard. International federations need to watch pay attention to the situation with vigilance but moderate penalisation gradual co-corporation to the same international standard.

Fairness need to be applied to everyone as it is the ultimate goal, but leniency and moderation should be considered when dealing with other cultures and systems that didn't have the foundation for an international standards previously. May be some sort of 4 years plan. Those individuals who lied should be allowed to come forward without punishment to rectify records; those in the 'knowing' and chose not to come forward during the grace period should be punished; those who are responsible for mismanagement should also be punished. Systematically there need to be a cultural shift where people will not be isolated for speaking out the truth. But a whole a federation should not be punished when there are innocent bystanders who follows rules including many hard-working athletes that should not be held responsible for things that are clearly outside of their control.

Anyone who lied their way to a medal position should give the medal back, particularly when they are over certain age. Adult ultimately should be responsible for their own actions and acknowledge wrong doings.

 

[Mathman]

Some of these posts make China seem like some backward fourth-world nation, where nameless, ageless orphans are swept up from roaming the streets and pressed into service as ice skaters. How is possible to ever find out where they come from or how old they are?

This story was broken, not by a "tabloid" or an Internet discussion forum, but by the Associated Press. The facts of the story are that the birth dates published on the Chinese Skating Federation' web site did not match the dates supplied by that federation to the ISU and to Olympic authorities. In nine out of nine cases the dates supplied to the ISU were more favorable to the Chinese Skatiing Federation than were the dates posted on the web sites. (By the way, those dates have now disappeared from the web site -- good thing people hit "save screen" or the investigation would be over.)

But the investigation is over anyway. Here is the latest from the ISU (reported again by Associated Press.)

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...1AiUCw?docId=79bbf8696c674852841dcb029126c77d

International skating officials found no discrepancies in the birthdates of three Chinese figure skaters, including 2006 Olympic pairs silver medalists Zhang Dan and Zhang Hao, after questions were raised about their eligibility.

The birthdates listed on the Chinese Olympic Committee's website for the Zhangs and female singles skater Xu Binshu match what the International Skating Union has, spokeswoman Selina Vanier said Thursday.

A list of birthdates published on the Chinese skating federation's website and found by the AP indicated that the Zhangs, Sui and Han and at least four other skaters violated the sport's age limits by competing when they were either too young or too old. The birthdates on the federation's websites differed from those listed on the athletes' ISU bios.

The Chinese Skating Association said the skaters were eligible, blaming poor record keeping for the discrepancies. The list of birthdates posted on the Chinese association's website had disappeared by Tuesday.

 

[OS]

Looks like Big brother's dad told their mum to spin the story. Some families are just crazy! Tsk Tsk Tsk...

(BTW Mathman the BBC did point out the American Associated press started, but on the Chinese articles from Sinanet is different,

http://news.sina.com.tw/article/20110218/4198487.html

It asked how did Associated press found out about this, the explanation was it started from fan's posts from an international skating forum. I presume the FSU because their post is earlier than this thread.)

 

[Sylvia]

But the investigation is over anyway. Here is the latest from the ISU (reported again by Associated Press.)

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...1AiUCw?docId=79bbf8696c674852841dcb029126c77d

You forgot to quote this part:

Reigning junior world champions Sui Wenjing and Han Cong and three other skaters whose eligibility was questioned were not listed on the official Chinese Olympic Committee site, Vanier said.

"The ISU is gathering information on this matter and will not comment any further until all the details are received," Vanier said in an e-mail to The Associated Press.

 

[Violet Bliss]

A few quick points before I have to run out the door:

1. Yes, in some parts of the country and in many cases, birth regustrations in China do smack of 4th World standard. Don't forget, over 1/5 of the World's population live in China, a nation of rapid but very mixed progresses.

2. No tabloid is mentioned or blamed in the Chinese reports.

3. Yinggang Zhao of the National Winter Sports Centre expressed that the allegations are being taken seriously as against their policy and will be investigated.

4. The Zhangs seem to be in the clear.

A la prochaine, mes amis.

 

[Mathman]

You forgot to quote this part:

Reigning junior world champions Sui Wenjing and Han Cong and three other skaters whose eligibility was questioned were not listed on the official Chinese Olympic Committee site, Vanier said.

"The ISU is gathering information on this matter and will not comment any further until all the details are received," Vanier said in an e-mail to The Associated Press.

The point was that the ISU's "investigation" in clearing some skaters was to compare what the Chinese Skating Association told the ISU with what they told the IOC. If they reported the same dates twice, investigation over.

To me, the quote from Vanier says that when the Chinese Federation sends them some more "details," that will be that.

This whole thing is why I do not take much interest in international sports competitions. National one-upsmanship dominates the sport part.

 

[skatinginbc]

The point was that the ISU's "investigation" in clearing some skaters was to compare what the Chinese Skating Association told the ISU with what they told the IOC. If they reported the same dates twice, investigation over.

If the Chinese federation reported falsified information to ISU, would they not do the same to IOC? That investigation sounds like a joke, doesn't it? I actually would trust more the data posted on skaters' personal websites than those that the Chinese officials reported to foreign organizations.

 

[prettykeys]

I'm entertained.

 

[aftertherain]

^ I often wish we had .gif options like other forums/livejournals/etc.

 

[Tonichelle]

^ I often wish we had .gif options like other forums/livejournals/etc.

lest we forget how large this forum is, and how gracious the admin is to pay for it all out of her own pocket. gotta save on bandwidth where we can!