Chinese Skaters' Age In Question

[aftertherain]

^Ahaha. Of course, of course. Thank you, Admin.!

 

[skatinginbc]

Due to the sheer number of the suspected cases and their convenient pattern, I was at first more inclined to believe a systematic deceit on the Chinese federation’s part. So I planned to conduct a statistical test and see if I should accept or reject the null hypothesis. While I browsed through Skaters’ Bios at ISU website to count the total number of listed Chinese skaters, I found immediately that no statistical test was needed. Why? The Chinese skaters were NOT randomly selected from all parts of China. They constitute a shockingly skewed sample, with the overwhelming majority, if not all, being born in the north-eastern frontiers considered as the traditional territory of an ethnic minority, namely, the Manchu people who speak a Tungusic language belonging to the Altaic Language Family. Their birthplaces are not in China Proper, so no wonder Big Brother Communists have some difficulty in tracking their birthdates. Is there an underlying cultural reason for girls to over-report and boys to under-report their ages in those regions? I am not familiar with the Manchu territory, and I hope anyone who has in-depth knowledge of that area can shed some light on it.

 

[Olympia]

Isn't that the area where Harbin is located? I know that city is a skating center, and it's where Shen and Zhou come from as well as the Zhangs. Interesting statistics, BC.

 

[bsfan]

There is not much difference for people of Manchu vs. people from other places these days, especially those from cities. Manchu does have some minorities but none of these skaters are. Since 1930's Manchu has been industrialized and has the major manufactures of heavy industry. It's one of the very developed area in China. The weather is cold and that's why almost all winter sport athelets are from there. These figure skaters are from major cities in manchu.

It doesn't make much sence to argue the birthdate inconsistency could caused by using lunar, under developed area, etc. Viewers in China don't buy such excuses. It's common sense that people register dob with solar calender.

BTW, when some journalists went to local office to check Sui's birth certificate, they were told the original records were damaged due to heavy rain.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Strangely, there have been no dicussions about this subject on Chinese skating forums I skim through. After os's post with the Chinese links, I decided to check up on the Chinese media, having just found online tools for writing Chinese, which used to require special softwares and/or computor accessories. Well, it is apparent that age cheating has been wide spread in Chinese sports, mostly under reporting by men to gain the competition edge as the fresh up and comers. When they continue on to the international stage, truths often surface. There is much criticism and ridicule by the Chinese public and demand for clean up. Let's hope something full scale is done.

However, I feel the young girls in gymnastics and skating probably can't be faulted as initiating deceits with their age. They are so young and have been living and training completely under the direction of the sport authorities for almost all their lives. They certainly don't know how to falsify documents, and probably much of anything else besides skating or gymnastics. I hope they won't end up paying too high a prize for the deeds of those who should know better.

There may be 4th world birth registrations and old fashioned age telling, as I just recently experienced with a visitor from China who is educated and quite wealthy, most athletes are well aware of how their age is calculated internationally.

 

[skatinginbc]

Isn't that the area where Harbin is located? I know that city is a skating center, and it's where Shen and Zhou come from as well as the Zhangs. Interesting statistics, BC.

Yes, you are right. I was shocked to discover, for instance, all Chinese female single skaters are born in Harbin, Qiqihar, Chanchun, or Jiamusi--all of them are places in the Northeast China, the traditional Manchu territory. Is there an underlying custom in the Manchu territoy that could explain the systematic age discrepancy? I hope some "Chinese" expert can answer that.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I'm more surprised at there being so many tiny women suitable for pair skating as the Norhteastern Chinese are generally quite tall.

Harbin stages the most wonderful winter festivals, often showcasing the amazing ice scultures.

 

[skatinginbc]

So there is no underlying reason specific to that area that could explain the systematic discrepancy? If not, then I have to say: The Chinese skating federation is guilty and should be punished. I want to see head rolls over the crime.

 

[bsfan]

I'm more surprised at there being so many tiny women suitable for pair skating as the Norhteastern Chinese are generally quite tall.

There were several big migrations of people from inside the great wall to Northeast starting from 1900 around. It's possible to find small-framed women as well as small-framed men.

 

[Bluebonnet]

I'm more surprised at there being so many tiny women suitable for pair skating as the Norhteastern Chinese are generally quite tall.

OT: Many from southern and eastern provinces had relocated to north during 1950-60s. Thanks to China's former dictator Mao Ze Dong.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Anothe OT: A few years ago, I met the first Chinese internet millionaire - multi-millionaire actually and his early associates all became millionaires - who immigrated to Canada. He stayed for 6 months and returned to China. The guy is 6 ft 7 in. tall!

eta. By internet millionaire I mean he was the first internet service provider, not that he made money from online marketing.

 

[Olympia]

However, I feel the young girls in gymnastics and skating probably can't be faulted as initiating deceits with their age. They are so young and have been living and training completely under the direction of the sport authorities for almost all their lives. They certainly don't know how to falsify documents, and probably much of anything else besides skating or gymnastics. I hope they won't end up paying too high a prize for the deeds of those who should know better.

That's exactly my worry, SF. The fact is that these girls, who as you say probably don't know much of anything except skating (and do they get educated in anything else while they're training?) will be seen as expendable when something goes wrong. Then they get sent home with no medals, no honor, and no preparation for any life outside the sports system. I remember reading, for example, that though many young Chinese learn fluent English, the athletes learn almost none. After all, they're busy. Whoever else pays, these children certainly will.

 

[blue dog]

That's exactly my worry, SF. The fact is that these girls, who as you say probably don't know much of anything except skating (and do they get educated in anything else while they're training?) will be seen as expendable when something goes wrong. Then they get sent home with no medals, no honor, and no preparation for any life outside the sports system. I remember reading, for example, that though many young Chinese learn fluent English, the athletes learn almost none. After all, they're busy. Whoever else pays, these children certainly will.

Yes! I mean, if many athletes who do earn medals and aren't disgraced sometimes have a hard time with life outside (almost like they were in the military), imagine "disgraced" athletes.

Although she wasn't Chinese, Kim Gwang Suk of DPRK was barred from competition in the early 90's in gymnastics, after she was found to have registered at competitions with three or four different birth years. She was never heard from again.

 

[Violet Bliss]

From what I read, most age cheating is commited by male athletes trying to get ahead, be trained by the best coaches, or get noticed and signed up, even by overseas teams. It doesn't help them win as much as getting opportunites for advancements and lucrative careers. The awkward revelations often happen with their romantic relationships since they are considered so young. (Most cheat within 2 years but there are occasional outrageous age reduction of 4 or 5 years. Yeah, it can get awkward.) Sometimes their parents slipped up in their defence.

While most age cheatings are individual frauds, the girls in the sports of skating and gymnastics are quite different stories, IMO. However, the federations have invested so much in them, and, at least in skating, these talents are obviously not dime a dozen and easily replaceable. If they represent international prestige and pride to both the public and the government, they should be protected over the management who are really dime a dozen and replaceable, even though they wield much more power than the girls. Some people have to be sacrificed and let's hope the higher authorities make the right choices.

 

[skatinginbc]

This might be off topic, but I was playing with the statistics and found the following:
Chinese and Russian female skaters started skating about the same age (Chinese 4.67 years old, Russian 4.79 years old), which is significantly younger than the Japanese (6.41 years old). And, most incredibly, Russian skater Elizaveta TUKTAMISHEVA started skating 6 years BEFORE she was born, according to the skater's bio on the ISU website.

 

[blue dog]

And, most incredibly, Russian skater Elizaveta TUKTAMISHEVA started skating 6 years BEFORE she was born, according to the skater's bio on the ISU website.

Lol! You are correct!

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00010705.htm

This shows that mistakes are made even with the ISU

 

[Violet Bliss]

Chinese and Russian female skaters started skating about the same age (Chinese 4.67 years old, Russian 4.79 years old), which is significantly younger than the Japanese (6.41 years old). And, most incredibly, Russian skater Elizaveta TUKTAMISHEVA started skating 6 years BEFORE she was born, according to the skater's bio on the ISU website.

How much does Elizaveta's precociousness bring down the average starting age of the Russian skaters?

 

[skatinginbc]

How much does Elizaveta's precociousness bring down the average starting age of the Russian skaters?

As it was an obvious mistake, I did not include her data in the calculation. On the other hand, I did not exclude Ludmila NELIDINA's data, which shows that she started skating at the age of one. I don't skate, so I don't know if there is any skate so small that can fit into a toddler's feet. I guess she meant the age when her parents first took her to the ice rink.

 

[Violet Bliss]

As it was an obvious mistake, I did not include her data in the calculation.

Age 0 should be a neutral assumptive substitute for statistical purposes, no?

 

[skatinginbc]

Age 0 should be a neutral assumptive substitute for statistical purposes, no?

I'll wait and see what Mathman will say. We may ask him to give up his handle should he give us a wrong answer.