Christine Brennan previews World Ladies

[Sam-Skwantch]

The lengths people will go to in defending gossip like rumor mills is frustrating. Oh well....

 

[solani]

I take your point, but I also think you're putting words in their mouths.

Ok, I guess I was putting words in their mouths, but they were putting thoughts in our heads.
And they did question the credibility of those 14 year old girls. If they had worked with a certain doctor, or if athletes from their skating clubs were involved in those cases etc. I would understand that journalists need to ask unpleasant questions. I think it was meant as a kind of joke between Jenny and Dave when I remember it correctly, but it wasn't their best fun moment.

 

[Lexiglass]

The lengths people will go to in defending gossip like rumor mills is frustrating. Oh well....

I do take some offense if you think I'm defending rumor mongering, although I guess I could understand why you would see it that way. TSL has definitely spread rumors without providing any basis in the past. My only point (and I've probably beaten it to death at this point!) is that in this case, I don't think they were stating as a fact that Polina and Alisa withdrew to avoid drug tests - they were speculating, and, more importantly, that speculation wasn't baseless. I don't think it was very nice, or necessary, frankly, and, obviously, they were wrong - but I do think they had a basis for that speculation, and I think that it's not fair to act as though there is no connection between Russian figure skating and meldonium, or that a double withdrawal at a competition isn't a noteworthy event, or that discussing the two together is a feat of extreme conspiracy theorizing. And frankly, I am glad that at the very least TSL is taking the use of meldonium in figure skating seriously and is treating it like an important story, even if I don't always agree with everything they say or do.

Ok, I guess I was putting words in their mouths, but they were putting thoughts in our heads.
And they did question the credibility of those 14 year old girls. If they had worked with a certain doctor, or if athletes from their skating clubs were involved in those cases etc. I would understand that journalists need to ask unpleasant questions. I think it was meant as a kind of joke between Jenny and Dave when I remember it correctly, but it wasn't their best fun moment.

Of course, I understand where you're coming from and I agree that it wasn't exactly one of their most stellar moments. Like I said above, I think the fact that they both withdrew in such quick succession is unusual enough (even though, of course, it turns out that it really was just an unfortunate coincidence) to make it understandable for them to ask the question - but obviously reasonable people can disagree, and I do agree with you that they should be more thoughtful before they potentially damage the reputations of young kids like that. Even if it was a fair question, it probably didn't need to be asked.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

No need to feel offended. Sometimes people just disagree. FWIW: I feel I've learned a bit in these threads myself from the people making a go at an honest discussion.

Re: TSL
I wish that their bad manners didn't trump their quality work in my mind but TBH....I just see them for snarkyness first and foremost. To me they are kind of like Comedy Central news. It's harmless until people start quoting it or believing it's actual information. Just my take.

 

[Crossover]

To me they are kind of like Comedy Central news.

I loved comedy central news while Colbert was active...just saying.

 

[moriel]

With all due respect, I think you are deliberately missing my point. It is a pretty big coincidence that two of the top Russian junior skaters got injured at Junior Worlds and had to withdraw. It's unusual for a skater to get injured and have to withdraw at an event to begin with, never mind two - and then for both to be from the same federation? That's weird! That is an actual coincidence. That TSL, a skating commentary outlet, would comment on it is hardly unusual. That, in the midst of a scandal concerning the use of meldonium by figure skaters, a drug that is only available in Eastern Europe and thus almost exclusively used by Russian athletes, they would speculate on whether this coincidence was actually related to meldonium - I'm sorry, but that's hardly mental gymnastics. They were wrong! But not exactly crazy for mentioning it.

The fact that Polina Edmunds is of Russian descent, and also withdrew from Worlds - that is not a coincidence. If you truly can't see the difference between what you said and what I said, than I think it is pretty silly for us to continue to have this conversation.

Well, to be honest i dont really get what you are saying.
The fact russian ladies WD from JWorlds is a coincidence (which means "a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection."). So ok, they have no apparent connection, i agree. Apparent or non apparent even. But then you come with those connection suspicions which dont make sence if thats a coincidence.
Then, you say Polina Edmunds WD is not a coincidence, which means you see a causal connection with the doping thing, basically agreeing with my random hypothesis she is also using meldonium =D

I think ill just go somewhere else silently, have fun man. I agree the discussion became silly.

 

[Mathman]

Well, to be honest i dont really get what you are saying.

The fact russian ladies WD from JWorlds is a coincidence (which means "a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection.").

Lexiglass means that the concurrence is so remarkable as to raise doubts about whether it is a mere coincidence or whether, contrariwise, there is something more behind it.that it may NOT be mere coincidence.

While the fact that Polina's mother is Russian and the fact that Polina withdrew from Worlds probably IS mere coincidence, raising no suspicions.

"Coincidence" is one of those funny words that is often used to imply the exact opposite of what it literally means, hence the confusion.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Lexiglass means that the concurrence is so remarkable as to raise doubts about whether it is a mere coincidence or whether, contrariwise, there is something more behind it.that it may NOT be mere coincidence.

While the fact that Polina's mother is Russian and the fact that Polina withdrew from Worlds probably IS mere coincidence, raising no suspicions.

"Coincidence" is one of those funny words that is often used to imply the exact opposite of what it literally means, hence the confusion.

https://instagram.com/p/-ehfc_kjXS/
But how can we be sure those Russian girls didn't give Polina that bag and how can we be certain it isn't full of Meldonium from the Meldonium store. They all look guilty to me

 

[koatcue]

Hmmm...What would happen if all Russian girls win in Boston? Hypothetically only. Will you let this "strange coincidence" b **** of winning all the pedestal go in your head too? What? It would be strange, of course. Nowadays there is a doping scandal in Russia and it's just natural to suppose some shady business happening in those Russian training dorms, with doctors or young sportsmen themselves taking another doping. Meldonium is old news! There is another medicine for them to take! They just can't win all year without doping! Look at Tuks! She admitted to be the cheater, it just must be the case with that darn Medvedeva little girl.

 

[Skater Boy]

With all due respect, I think you are deliberately missing my point. It is a pretty big coincidence that two of the top Russian junior skaters got injured at Junior Worlds and had to withdraw. It's unusual for a skater to get injured and have to withdraw at an event to begin with, never mind two - and then for both to be from the same federation? That's weird! That is an actual coincidence. That TSL, a skating commentary outlet, would comment on it is hardly unusual. That, in the midst of a scandal concerning the use of meldonium by figure skaters, a drug that is only available in Eastern Europe and thus almost exclusively used by Russian athletes, they would speculate on whether this coincidence was actually related to meldonium - I'm sorry, but that's hardly mental gymnastics. They were wrong! But not exactly crazy for mentioning it.

The fact that Polina Edmunds is of Russian descent, and also withdrew from Worlds - that is not a coincidence. If you truly can't see the difference between what you said and what I said, than I think it is pretty silly for us to continue to have this conversation.

oh my let's not go here folks. We already have so much distrust in this world at least with sports really it doesn't matter they are medals and hopefully no one gets hurt but hatred lead to more things than medals as we have seen. We must not get paranoid and try to see the goodness in people - though admittedly sometimes on this site it is hard to see that - sorry. And American or Russian or whatever. These are people. i can only hope judges don't read these boards. like i keep saying people on these boards are diehard skating fans but if people read what we wrote sometimes i think we would drive them away from the sport all together. i wish polina the best in healing and some with all these other skaters. let's try to enjoy good skating at worlds - to be honest skating and the world championships are not that important really but they give us a chance to escape from the daily stresses including terrorism economics, politics, health issues and such.

 

[Alex D]

With all due respect, I think you are deliberately missing my point. It is a pretty big coincidence that two of the top Russian junior skaters got injured at Junior Worlds and had to withdraw. It's unusual for a skater to get injured and have to withdraw at an event to begin with, never mind two - and then for both to be from the same federation? That's weird! That is an actual coincidence. .

With all due respect, I have been at many figure skating competitions where at least 5 or six skaters did not compete in the Free, due injury or pulled out prior to the short. It happened just a month ago at the Bavarian Open and it is very common and not "unusual".

I coach a team of girls and if they have the slightest risk of being injured, then I bench them too. Injuries, especially in young age must be taken with a lot of care, it can ruin an athletes career if you still get out and compete, as I know from own experience.

Safety comes first, that some athletes don´t see it like that is their thing, but to attack those who do, is really rude and disrespectful.

 

[Lexiglass]

Lexiglass means that the concurrence is so remarkable as to raise doubts about whether it is a mere coincidence or whether, contrariwise, there is something more behind it.that it may NOT be mere coincidence.

While the fact that Polina's mother is Russian and the fact that Polina withdrew from Worlds probably IS mere coincidence, raising no suspicions.

"Coincidence" is one of those funny words that is often used to imply the exact opposite of what it literally means, hence the confusion.

Very true, Mathman, except that the Polina example is truly no coincidence at all - because there is nothing whatsoever remarkable about the concurrence of a person of Russian descent withdrawing from worlds. Those are two unrelated facts. Hence why the comparison makes no sense to me.

 

[Lexiglass]

Safety comes first, that some athletes don´t see it like that is their thing, but to attack those who do, is really rude and disrespectful.

I am struggling to figure out where you think I have attacked anyone who puts safety first. In fact, I think it's very important that people who get injured take those injuries seriously and I'm always dismayed to see athletes fight through it for the sake of temporary glory - so we actually agree on that front, I think. But it is certainly unusual, at a very high level competition like junior worlds, for two athletes to pull out of the same event (ladies free skate), especially two athletes from the same federation, both of whom had a shot of medalling. That is all I have said - that you don't see that sort of thing happen at every junior worlds, that it's the kind of coincidence that makes you stop and say "wow, both of them?". Do you disagree? I'm a bit confused by the reaction, honestly, because I think I'm stating the obvious.

 

[moriel]

I am struggling to figure out where you think I have attacked anyone who puts safety first. In fact, I think it's very important that people who get injured take those injuries seriously and I'm always dismayed to see athletes fight through it for the sake of temporary glory - so we actually agree on that front, I think. But it is certainly unusual, at a very high level competition like junior worlds, for two athletes to pull out of the same event (ladies free skate), especially two athletes from the same federation, both of whom had a shot of medalling. That is all I have said - that you don't see that sort of thing happen at every junior worlds, that it's the kind of coincidence that makes you stop and say "wow, both of them?". Do you disagree? I'm a bit confused by the reaction, honestly, because I think I'm stating the obvious.

Hmmmmm I don´t really see it as "wow both of them". Stuff happens. Tons of skaters get injured.
If you go through GP of this year, for example, you see a bunch of competitors WD, some right before the competitions.
You see tons of people WD from very prestigious events with or without clear reason.
You see skaters like S/H and P/C WD right before important competitions.
You see V/T skipping their second gp event and thus missing GPF.
You can even see skaters WD from Oly games for health reasons.
A bunch of skaters don´t even announce the reason they WD.

Thats how most people think - accidents happen, skaters get injured. It is better to WD than to skate injured, and specially for young skaters, its better to take a good care of their health rather than risk worsening an injury and jeopardizing their careers. It dosn´t make people say "wow, both of them?".

Also, many people are annoyed at the current witch hunt where people accuse all russian skaters of cheating and doping just for being russians, or call cheats skaters like Tukt, who consumed legal stuff while it was legal.

PS: I disagree about obvious. For me, it obviously looks like you are looking for conspiracy where is none and insist on it.

 

[moriel]

https://instagram.com/p/-ehfc_kjXS/
But how can we be sure those Russian girls didn't give Polina that bag and how can we be certain it isn't full of Meldonium from the Meldonium store. They all look guilty to me

We can just take it as a confession: if a skater WD from any competition, it is because he/she is doping and doesnt want to be testes. Period. If not meldonium, there is surely something else. :hap93:


And well, Mathman For me, i just operate with statistical stuff - until i have evidence that i can reject H0, i suppose H0.

Lets say Polina T used meldonium. She was clean at Youth Olympics (she got gold so i suppose she was tested, and there was enough time for the result to be released by now). Then, there was all the scandal in early march, she wouldn´t start taking it as in "ok, bobrova and sharapova got caught using it, lemme try too". Just doesnt make sense.

 

[Lexiglass]

Hmmmmm I don´t really see it as "wow both of them". Stuff happens. Tons of skaters get injured.
If you go through GP of this year, for example, you see a bunch of competitors WD, some right before the competitions.
You see tons of people WD from very prestigious events with or without clear reason.
You see skaters like S/H and P/C WD right before important competitions.
You see V/T skipping their second gp event and thus missing GPF.
You can even see skaters WD from Oly games for health reasons.
A bunch of skaters don´t even announce the reason they WD.

Thats how most people think - accidents happen, skaters get injured. It is better to WD than to skate injured, and specially for young skaters, its better to take a good care of their health rather than risk worsening an injury and jeopardizing their careers. It dosn´t make people say "wow, both of them?".

Also, many people are annoyed at the current witch hunt where people accuse all russian skaters of cheating and doping just for being russians, or call cheats skaters like Tukt, who consumed legal stuff while it was legal.

PS: I disagree about obvious. For me, it obviously looks like you are looking for conspiracy where is none and insist on it.

Well first of all - I don't think there is any conspiracy. Polina and Alisa both got injured, coincidentally almost at the same time, and that's why they both withdrew. Open and shut case. What I've said is: I don't think that TSL were out of line to comment on it, or to suggest that there might be some connection to meldonium. They were WRONG about the connection, but they didn't know that at the time and they didn't suggest "this is the only explanation!" only that it had occurred to them that it was a possible explanation. I don't think that's outlandish. That is all that I have said.

And yes! Stuff happens! Like these two skaters getting injured. But when stuff happens, TSL, as a figure skating commentary outlet, tends to comment on it. When skaters withdraw from very prestigious events, they speculate about why. They do it all the time about skaters from all different countries. In this case, they made a connection between the double withdrawal and a current event in Russian sports. That connection is logical to me. I have tried to explain to you why I think the connection is logical. You obviously disagree.

I think it was in poor taste to make such a suggestion about very young athletes - but sometimes TSL says stuff that is in poor taste. The reason that I responded to this discussion in the first place was NOT because I agree with TSL or think that they what they said was some moment of great journalism. It's because I keep hearing people like you accusing them, and other fans who take it seriously when the WADA bans a particular substance, of engaging in some kind of witch hunt against Russian skaters. I don't think TSL is accusing all Russian skaters of being cheaters. I think TSL is commenting on the fact that (a) a Russian figure skater got busted for taking a substance that is now banned by the WADA, (b) she was one of a LOT of Russian athletes that got busted and (c) there is evidence that a lot of Russian athletes, including last years' world champion, were using this drug before it was banned. So there is factual evidence that figure skaters DID use this drug and that a lot of Russian athletes continued to use it after it got banned. It is unreasonable, IMO, to ask that all fans and commentators act like those facts are completely irrelevant to discussions of notable events in Russian figure skating. My sincere hope is that all Russian figure skaters respect the WADA ban and have either stopped using meldonium or never used it to begin with. I always assume that people are playing clean. But I think that accusing people of Russophobia or unfair bias against Russian skaters just because they're thinking about whether or not meldonium continues to be a factor in Russian figure skating is extremely unfair. You think I'm looking for a conspiracy where there is none - well frankly, I think the same thing about you.

 

[Mathman]

^ In my post I wasn't really talking about figure skating, I was just musing on how the interesting word "coincidence" is used in colloquial English.

Last night there was a lunar eclipse. Today a calf was born with two heads. Was that a "coincidence?". (Two unrelated, though perhaps remarkable, things happening at the same time.) Or would we think, "That's no coincidence, that's astrology"?

Anyway, I think Sam_Squanch is looking at this the right way. If TSL were a responsible journalistic enterprise it would be their duty to do some factual investigation before tossing out tabloid speculations. If they care more about titillating their audience, I guess that's OK, too, provided everyone understands this and doesn't start saying. "Well, according to TSL…"

 

[emzdeluxe]

Oh meldonium you caused this chaos congrats on being famous..LOL