Clinging to old programs

[ters]

Should there be a penalty? Watching Europeans, I was astounded by the extremely high PCS for Coomes/Buckland after they skated their Muse program a third season!

There's currently no penalty for this and maybe even a benefit to PCS. I think this explains why this recycling trend is growing so much. Why choose the more difficult route of performing two fresh programs if you can get the same or higher PCS by clinging to an old program like a security blanket?

Nevertheless, recycled programs are harming the sport. What do you tell friends who are unexcited about watching skating because "they're always doing the same routines."?

 

[silverfoxes]

It is very boring, isn't it? I roll my eyes every time I see another social media announcement from skaters who are "so excited" to share the news that they're going to be recycling yet another program. It's become a real scourge. This is the worst season for recycling, but hopefully we'll see some more creativity after the Olympics.

 

[schizoanalyst]

I find it especially odd because most people (in all the disciplines) work off the same blue-print season after season now. The programs are virtually indistinguishable in tone, composition, and content and yet they find it so difficult to just use a bit of different music. It's bizarre to me.

 

[ters]

It is very boring, isn't it? I roll my eyes every time I see another social media announcement from skaters who are "so excited" to share the news that they're going to be recycling yet another program. It's become a real scourge. This is the worst season for recycling, but hopefully we'll see some more creativity after the Olympics.

I hope so but I have a feeling that the trend will just keep growing unless the ISU does something to address this.

 

[ters]

sorry, posted in error.

 

[silverfoxes]

I hope so but I have a feeling that the trend will just keep growing unless the ISU does something to address this.

There do seem to be quite a few skaters who don't like to repeat programs and try to present something fresh every season. Thankfully, most of my favorite skaters are not chronic recyclers. I doubt it can be completely prevented, because I know some skaters just don't have the funds for new choreography every season. But maybe 2 seasons should be the limit. Not sure if they could enforce that or not.

 

[ters]

There do seem to be quite a few skaters who don't like to repeat programs and try to present something fresh every season. Thankfully, most of my favorite skaters are not chronic recyclers. I doubt it can be completely prevented, because I know some skaters just don't have the funds for new choreography every season. But maybe 2 seasons should be the limit. Not sure if they could enforce that or not.

I think a -1 wouldn't be too harsh. Skaters can get the same penalty for minor reasons like a costume violation.
Although, perhaps skaters could also apply for an exemption if they have limited funds? (the exemption could be automatic if they come from developing skating countries or are competing on the junior level).

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Just remember that Penny is coming back from a really horrific knee injury. So, they had a good reason to go back to something that they felt comfortable with.

I can see both sides of the issue. For us as fans, it is nice to see different things each season.

But don't forget the amount of hard work that goes into learning two new competition programmes, and possibly a third programme to act as a gala routine.

Plus, when a skater changes a programme, a new costume invariably goes with it. And those things ain't cheap!

One of the skaters I met when I was on holidays has a tactic that I think works well:

Change one programme each season, and use that programme for 2 seasons.

For example, last season, she changed her SP and kept her FS from the year before. This year, she has kept her SP from last season, and changed her FS. And next year (if she continues this pattern), she will change her SP, and keep her FS.

Doing it like this means that everybody gets the best of both worlds.

For the skater, it means they only have to learn one completely new programme each season, and they can put all their efforts into doing that. And because they are only learning one programme from scratch, they can make small tweeks to their old programme if they want.

For the fans, it means they get to see something new each season. And, at the same time, they can also see better how the skater is improving, through seeing the programme developing over a longer period of time.

I'm just surprised that more skaters don't do this. Because it seems like the perfect solution to me.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[gkelly]

There was a long thread on this topic started last spring that continued until fall:

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?64561&p=1737985#post1737985

Pretty much everything to be said on the topic on all side has been hashed and rehashed there. You might want to at least skim through that thread before going over the same ground again. But if you have something new to bring to the discussion, go for it.

 

[ters]

Just remember that Penny is coming back from a really horrific knee injury. So, they had a good reason to go back to something that they felt comfortable with.

Coomes/Buckland have been training their "Battle Remembered" FD since 2016. It was meant to be their FD for the 2016/17 season. So although they never got to perform it in competition last season, I'm not sure they were uncomfortable with it.

I admire Penny's comeback from injury. I just don't understand the PCS for a three-season program.

I don't mean to target C/B. My thread is about the trend in general. It makes it difficult to get friends to remain interested in skating.

One of the skaters I met when I was on holidays has a tactic that I think works well:

Change one programme each season, and use that programme for 2 seasons.

I have no doubt that it works well for some skaters. But does it deserve the same or higher PCS as performing two fresh programs?

 

[noskates]

honestly - I don't think it's ruining the sport. That's pretty harsh. I do think it's boring to the fan/observer but I seriously wonder if the judges give it a thought. Aren't they too busy looking at edges and all the other minutiae that goes into judging ice dance. Do they actually "judge" the music or the way the program is skated to the music?

 

[Anyasnake]

You cannot count Penny Coomes. Be mad at everyone else, but Coomes/Buckland get a pass - and a BIG one. Her knee was broken into a million pieces in 2016, it's incredible that she manages to skate the way she does when even walking could have been affected. She is still recovering and it's very difficult, so let them take any programs that they want

 

[Amei]

Just remember that Penny is coming back from a really horrific knee injury. So, they had a good reason to go back to something that they felt comfortable with.

I can see both sides of the issue. For us as fans, it is nice to see different things each season.

But don't forget the amount of hard work that goes into learning two new competition programmes, and possibly a third programme to act as a gala routine.

Plus, when a skater changes a programme, a new costume invariably goes with it. And those things ain't cheap!

One of the skaters I met when I was on holidays has a tactic that I think works well:

Change one programme each season, and use that programme for 2 seasons.

For example, last season, she changed her SP and kept her FS from the year before. This year, she has kept her SP from last season, and changed her FS. And next year (if she continues this pattern), she will change her SP, and keep her FS.

Doing it like this means that everybody gets the best of both worlds.

For the skater, it means they only have to learn one completely new programme each season, and they can put all their efforts into doing that. And because they are only learning one programme from scratch, they can make small tweeks to their old programme if they want.

For the fans, it means they get to see something new each season. And, at the same time, they can also see better how the skater is improving, through seeing the programme developing over a longer period of time.

I'm just surprised that more skaters don't do this. Because it seems like the perfect solution to me.

CaroLiza_fan

Except the 'saving money' doesn't fly so much because we see skaters in new costumes, take Wagner - I'm pretty sure every season that she used Moulin Rouge she had new dress. Sasha Cohen is another that re-used programs several times and she always had different costumes.

I'd rather see a skater reuse a skating costume and skating a new program vs. old program in a new sparkly costume.


Regarding something being done about penalizing a skater for re-using a program I'm torn because on 1 hand what you do the previous season should have no bearing on your scores for a competition this season but on the other hand I don't think it grows the sport for people to see skaters re-using programs and it puts them an advantage to their competitors that they are not having to learn/perfect choreography at the beginning of the season.

 

[blue_idealist]

Maybe there should be a rule that the same program can be used max 3 seasons. Then it'll allow for extenuating circumstances such as injury, but we won't have to see anything for more than four seasons.

 

[penguin]

Codifying a penalty in the rules would be a nightmare. What counts as a recycle — what if the music is reworked, but from the same source? What if the costume changes? What if the music changes but the costume is the same? What percentage of the program must be new to avoid a penalty? If you used a program for half a season, do you get another half-season elsewhere to reuse it without penalty? Etc etc.

The best way to discourage repeat programs is if the judging reflects it, but I suppose that could be seen as unfair because it's not judging only what is performed on the ice (it's bringing into account outside factors). But perhaps performance, choreography, or interpretation scores could take a hit.

I do think perception does affect judging anyway. If we think a program is tired to be used for a second/third/fourth time, the judges probably feel that too. It's just a very tricky thing to make a penalty mandatory.

 

[Alchamei]

I don't think there should be a rule about repeating programs, I even strongly disagree about it. I don't think skaters should be restricted like that, it would be too harsh. Not all repeated programs are bad, some of them haven't been skated to the full potential or the skaters don't have the money to have a new one.

That being said, I hate when a program is repeated for the third time. In that case it just can't be fresh and it's usually already been skated to its full potential, so the magic isn't there. I also don't like when a program is repeated for the Olympic season for the second time, but when it's not two years in a row but bringing an older program that is safe. When it's returning to a program that 1)was used in the previous season so it's not so overdone 2)hasn't been skated to its full potential, 3)is older and rather safe but redone at the same time, I don't mind it so much, and depending on the results, I can like it.

 

[Seren]

I think for me it depends if the program was skated to its potential or not. For Ashley, Kaetlyn, and Gabby (although I can understand her LP switch- her program this season wasn't very good) it comes off as stale because we've already seen it as good as it's going to be.

On the other hand I wouldn't mind if Jason kept his LP from this year because it feels incomplete. I feel like he hasn't skated it to its true potential yet.

So I guess it really depends.

 

[musicfan80]

I think it makes sense and I really don't mind if skaters repeat short programs - the short programs is still mostly about hitting your required elements, anyway. I could see a skaters wanting to do that if they especially want to attempt significantly more difficult jumps.

Long programs/free dances - I understand if the skater(s) were injured or for some other reason or didn't complete a program for a full season.

 

[karne]

I think the title of this thread shows a bit of a lack of understanding when it comes to repeats. The title implies skaters only "cling" to programs because they can't think of anything else to do or they just don't want new programs, and doesn't seem to take into account the real issues that many skaters face in this regard.

Choreography and costumes are expensive. For a skater like Ashley Wagner that may not be a viable excuse - but for a skater from a little skating country with minimal to no funding or sponsorship, that absolutely could be a reason to keep a program another season. And then there are skaters who suffer injuries that lessen the number of times the program is performed - like Coomes/Buckland, or Jason Brown and the Piano FS. Sometimes, a program is even planned to be kept for two seasons and is choreographed in such a way that the skater can only develop it over two seasons rather than one (the "Prince" SP Rohene Ward choreographed for Jason Brown was designed that way and it worked absolutely perfectly - Jason was really too young and not quite able to pull it off in the first season, but by the second season had matured and made the program his own - something that wouldn't have been possible if he hadn't already had a season of it under his belt).

I certainly don't take issue with Coomes/Buckland. I certainly do take issue with Ashley Wagner's repeats, Hanyu's repeats, Uno's repeats.


I also think one program method that is under-utilised is bringing back music skated to as a little skater. So Plushenko doing Aranjuez in Vancouver when he had used it at Junior Worlds (a gap of approximately 13-14 years). Or Max doing Les Mis and Gladiator as a Senior compared to him doing them as an Intermediate (gap of 11 years) or a young Junior (gap of 7 years). It can really show off a skater's improvement and how they've evolved as a skater.

 

[blue_idealist]

Codifying a penalty in the rules would be a nightmare. What counts as a recycle — what if the music is reworked, but from the same source? What if the costume changes? What if the music changes but the costume is the same? What percentage of the program must be new to avoid a penalty? If you used a program for half a season, do you get another half-season elsewhere to reuse it without penalty? Etc etc.

The best way to discourage repeat programs is if the judging reflects it, but I suppose that could be seen as unfair because it's not judging only what is performed on the ice (it's bringing into account outside factors). But perhaps performance, choreography, or interpretation scores could take a hit.

I do think perception does affect judging anyway. If we think a program is tired to be used for a second/third/fourth time, the judges probably feel that too. It's just a very tricky thing to make a penalty mandatory.

Hmm, yeah. I didn't think of how hard it would be to define a program being used for a full season or not.