Clinging to old programs

[SarahSynchro]

I think the title of this thread shows a bit of a lack of understanding when it comes to repeats. The title implies skaters only "cling" to programs because they can't think of anything else to do or they just don't want new programs, and doesn't seem to take into account the real issues that many skaters face in this regard.

Choreography and costumes are expensive. For a skater like Ashley Wagner that may not be a viable excuse - but for a skater from a little skating country with minimal to no funding or sponsorship, that absolutely could be a reason to keep a program another season. And then there are skaters who suffer injuries that lessen the number of times the program is performed - like Coomes/Buckland, or Jason Brown and the Piano FS. Sometimes, a program is even planned to be kept for two seasons and is choreographed in such a way that the skater can only develop it over two seasons rather than one (the "Prince" SP Rohene Ward choreographed for Jason Brown was designed that way and it worked absolutely perfectly - Jason was really too young and not quite able to pull it off in the first season, but by the second season had matured and made the program his own - something that wouldn't have been possible if he hadn't already had a season of it under his belt).

I certainly don't take issue with Coomes/Buckland. I certainly do take issue with Ashley Wagner's repeats, Hanyu's repeats, Uno's repeats.


I also think one program method that is under-utilised is bringing back music skated to as a little skater. So Plushenko doing Aranjuez in Vancouver when he had used it at Junior Worlds (a gap of approximately 13-14 years). Or Max doing Les Mis and Gladiator as a Senior compared to him doing them as an Intermediate (gap of 11 years) or a young Junior (gap of 7 years). It can really show off a skater's improvement and how they've evolved as a skater.

Don’t forget how WeaPo went back to Je Suis Malade for their FD this season. I’m not a Lara Fabian fan in the slightest, but hot damn, that program is even better now than it was in 2012. And I say this while pushing my Poje fangirling slash stalking aside.

Also, I thought the whole concept of “The Best of Plushenko” was bloody hilarious, and I mean that in a good way, even though I’ve never been his biggest fan.

 

[medoroa]

I agree with karne -- I don't think it should be penalized and there are plenty of very good reasons other than "the judges can't give me lower PCS now if I repeat the same program as last year" for skaters to repeat programs.

But I do side-eye skaters who come out and admit they're doing it because they think coming up with new programs is a waste of time, or admit they're only doing it because they know it means they can win based on their PCS from previous seasons. So it's all about the intent. And that to me is different from going back to old programs in Olympic years because your new program turned out to not really work. In that case, at least you tried!

And yes, The Best of Plushenko is hilarious and for that I forgive it everything. Just the fact that commentators were made to say "The Best of Plushenko!" in all seriousness!

 

[FCSSp4]

I certainly don't take issue with Coomes/Buckland. I certainly do take issue with Ashley Wagner's repeats, Hanyu's repeats, Uno's repeats.

What's wrong with Hanyu? It's not like you saw it 50 times this season with non-existent transitions or whatever they actually improved on it. Way, way waaayyy out of Shoma and Ashley's league if you ask me.

Anyway lucky you karne, you'll only see it in Olys and maybe even Worlds for the entire season while we have to suffer every other subpar program for twice as much.

 

[GrandmaCC]

I think a -1 wouldn't be too harsh. Skaters can get the same penalty for minor reasons like a costume violation.
Although, perhaps skaters could also apply for an exemption if they have limited funds? (the exemption could be automatic if they come from developing skating countries or are competing on the junior level).

Ters, what is a costume violation?
Probably this is covered in the uniform thread but I didn’t have the energy to even try to wade through that thread lol.
Are therse rules such as costumes not being too revealing, short, having been approved of prior to competition (I believe an Australian skater wore another girl’s dress after arriving overseas to compete with only skated in tow due to lost luggage), that sort of thing?
There’s not a penalty for dressing the same for more than one season, is there?

As for cost, just how expensive are we talking for costumes? It’s always confounded me as to how many skaters wear flesh coloured mesh that is as far removed from their skin tone as possible. Would that be due to monetary constraints?

I’m not certain how I feel re recycling programs - think it depends on the skater, some need to grow into a piece (Alina’s LP, IMO), but others knock will it out of the park
and then every subsequent performances seems sub par, and you can’t tell me the judges aren’t judging you against your past self when you take the ice.

 

[Alchamei]

Ters, what is a costume violation?
Probably this is covered in the uniform thread but I didn’t have the energy to even try to wade through that thread lol.
Are therse rules such as costumes not being too revealing, short, having been approved of prior to competition (I believe an Australian skater wore another girl’s dress after arriving overseas to compete with only skated in tow due to lost luggage), that sort of thing?
There’s not a penalty for dressing the same for more than one season, is there?

As for cost, just how expensive are we talking for costumes? It’s always confounded me as to how many skaters wear flesh coloured mesh that is as far removed from their skin tone as possible. Would that be due to monetary constraints?

I’m not certain how I feel re recycling programs - think it depends on the skater, some need to grow into a piece (Alina’s LP, IMO), but others knock will it out of the park
and then every subsequent performances seems sub par, and you can’t tell me the judges aren’t judging you against your past self when you take the ice.

You can probably get a deduction if your costume is too revealing and such as you named, but there is another costume deduction, if a piece of the costume falls on the ice.

 

[karne]

Also, I thought the whole concept of “The Best of Plushenko” was bloody hilarious, and I mean that in a good way, even though I’ve never been his biggest fan.

And yes, The Best of Plushenko is hilarious and for that I forgive it everything. Just the fact that commentators were made to say "The Best of Plushenko!" in all seriousness!

The only person who could carry this off properly is, of course, the King himself. And so he did! The best part was that people mocked it, but it was actually a pretty decent program, and he slayed it in the team event FS with a certain imperiousness befitting the occasion.

What's wrong with Hanyu? It's not like you saw it 50 times this season with non-existent transitions or whatever they actually improved on it. Way, way waaayyy out of Shoma and Ashley's league if you ask me.

Anyway lucky you karne, you'll only see it in Olys and maybe even Worlds for the entire season while we have to suffer every other subpar program for twice as much.

*bemused expression* O-o-okay...

 

[GrandmaCC]

You can probably get a deduction if your costume is too revealing and such as you named, but there is another costume deduction, if a piece of the costume falls on the ice.

Thanks, Alchamei!!

I’m gonna go look this up somewhere (I don’t know where, wish me luck lol). This is interesting.
I’m certainly curious about the cost; I just about fell over when I read how much a choreographer can cost.

 

[karne]

Ters, what is a costume violation?
Probably this is covered in the uniform thread but I didn’t have the energy to even try to wade through that thread lol.
Are therse rules such as costumes not being too revealing, short, having been approved of prior to competition (I believe an Australian skater wore another girl’s dress after arriving overseas to compete with only skated in tow due to lost luggage), that sort of thing?
There’s not a penalty for dressing the same for more than one season, is there?

Costume violations take two forms. First is costume failure - so a piece of the costume falls on the ice. That is an instant -1. This rule also applies to hairpieces like scrunchies and pins.

The other version of this is an "inappropriate" costume - for example, showing too much flesh (real or fabric, though this is more strictly enforced in dance), nipple tassels, and so on. For men, it can also be for wearing tights rather than pants. One particularly horrid example was a 13 year old girl - I believe she was French - several seasons back who appeared at a JGP in a bodysuit of flesh-tone fabric matched to her skin tone, with swirls of stones/sequins in three particular places and a short fringe around her hips. It was horrifying and I will never understand how no-one out of her parents, coaches, costumer, anyone didn't pick up how terrible it was.

As for cost, just how expensive are we talking for costumes? It’s always confounded me as to how many skaters wear flesh coloured mesh that is as far removed from their skin tone as possible. Would that be due to monetary constraints?

A custom, fully-stoned dress by one of the good designers could be $1000 or more. We're talking dresses that are designed from scratch by the costumer to suit the skater and the music, the highest quality fabrics, Swarovski crystals, and so on.

The mismatch of flesh tone could come from either the cost factor or someone just having a difficult skin tone. For example, the lightest skating tights available are still too dark for my skin tone, and I know for many years the darkest skin tones just weren't available at all in anything remotely close.

 

[Rossig]

I certainly don't take issue with Coomes/Buckland. I certainly do take issue with Ashley Wagner's repeats, Hanyu's repeats, Uno's repeats.

But Coomes and Buckland already repeated the program last season. And I was ok with that, because in the first season they skated it, they didn't have chance to show it in the most important competitions. But I don't think they should repeat it again this season, especially that they prepared really interesting FD, which had big potential. They shouldn't give it up so easily.

 

[pesto]

But Coomes and Buckland already repeated the program last season. And I was ok with that, because in the first season they skated it, they didn't have chance to show it in the most important competitions. But I don't think they should repeat it again this season, especially that they prepared really interesting FD, which had big potential. They shouldn't give it up so easily.

I'd give Coomes and Buckland a pass, with their injury /illness history. But I do find it a bit odd, since they got a PB in Nebelhorn with their new programme. So they had it prepared to a high standard, and it had good scoring potential when performed well.

 

[gkelly]

From the current (2016) ISU rulebook:

Rule 501 Clothing

1. At ISU Championships, the Olympic Winter Games and International Competitions, the clothing of the Competitors must be modest, dignified and appropriate for athletic competition – not garish or theatrical in design. Clothing may, however, reflect the character of the music chosen. The clothing must not give the effect of excessive nudity inappropriate for the discipline. Men must wear full length trousers and must not wear tights. In addition, in Ice Dance, Ladies must wear a skirt. Accessories and props are not permitted.

Clothing that does not adhere to these guidelines will be penalized by a deduction (see Rule 353, paragraph 1.n).

For Ice Dance, exceptions to the restrictions may be announced by the IDTC if appropriate to the Rhythms selected for the Short Dance.

2. The decorations on costumes must be non-detachable. Part of the costume or decoration falling on the ice will be penalized by a deduction (see Rule 353, paragraph 1.n).

Rule 353 is the details of the scoring; paragraph 1.n is a chart of all the possible violations that require deductions with citations to the relevant rules (for costumes, rule 501 quoted above) and the number of points lost for each deduction.

The deduction for a costume piece falling on the ice is taken by the referee. That's pretty straightforward.

For the costume/prop deduction (i.e., violations of the first paragraph of rule 501), "Those deductions are applied according to the opinion of the majority of the panel which includes all the Judges and the Referee. No deduction is made in case of a 50:50 split vote."

That's more subjective, depending what each judge and the referee notices and what strikes them as being immodest, undignified, or inappropriate for athletic competition or too garish or theatrical, or in borderline instances whether those tight trousers really were tights or whether that manipulable attached costume piece was really a prop.

And what does "the effect of excessive nudity inappropriate for the discipline" mean? Are there degrees of nudity that are appropriate for ice dance but not for singles or pairs? Appropriate for Ladies but not for Men?

 

[pearly]

Let me just add: appropriate for Men but not Ladies as well! (Hello nipples!)

 

[ancientpeas]

Let me just add: appropriate for Men but not Ladies as well! (Hello nipples!)

you know this post taken out of context is an eyebrow raiser.

 

[penniavaswen]

A custom, fully-stoned dress by one of the good designers could be $1000 or more. We're talking dresses that are designed from scratch by the costumer to suit the skater and the music, the highest quality fabrics, Swarovski crystals, and so on.

The mismatch of flesh tone could come from either the cost factor or someone just having a difficult skin tone. For example, the lightest skating tights available are still too dark for my skin tone, and I know for many years the darkest skin tones just weren't available at all in anything remotely close.

During the backstage tour at US Nationals this year, the guide (Kim?) said that she was not aware of any of the ladies costumes that were under $5000.
Also another interesting tidbit: the costumes don't get washed (the ladies). Instead cheap vodka is put into a spray bottle and used for spot cleaning! :eeking:

 

[ranran]

From the current (2016) ISU rulebook:



Rule 353 is the details of the scoring; paragraph 1.n is a chart of all the possible violations that require deductions with citations to the relevant rules (for costumes, rule 501 quoted above) and the number of points lost for each deduction.

The deduction for a costume piece falling on the ice is taken by the referee. That's pretty straightforward.

For the costume/prop deduction (i.e., violations of the first paragraph of rule 501), "Those deductions are applied according to the opinion of the majority of the panel which includes all the Judges and the Referee. No deduction is made in case of a 50:50 split vote."

That's more subjective, depending what each judge and the referee notices and what strikes them as being immodest, undignified, or inappropriate for athletic competition or too garish or theatrical, or in borderline instances whether those tight trousers really were tights or whether that manipulable attached costume piece was really a prop.

And what does "the effect of excessive nudity inappropriate for the discipline" mean? Are there degrees of nudity that are appropriate for ice dance but not for singles or pairs? Appropriate for Ladies but not for Men?

ISU need to sort out their stand on this rule, because almost every bullet point has been broken by skaters over the years and no one get penalty

On the topic

Like Gkelly said the topic has been discussed too many times before but

Penalty for repeating program? First they said athletes are lazy and now deserve penalty... just because you are bored and want to be entertained... seriously?

Aside from financial issues, I think what's important for the athlete is how comfortable they are in performing their programs, they felt the flow like a second skin and then they up their technical ante.
In Olympic season especially you have risk of injuries from over training and repeating program is the cushion for the lost times during recovery. It's like a back up plan.

If it was a new program, there won't be time for the program to reach potential or felt comfortable to perform to should there be unexpected things happened like injuries and consequently lost training times. Examples are Karen Chen and Ashley Wagner, they keep changing their programs because they are not comfortable performing to it, I'm certain it's not because they are lazy.

So I wonder, penalty for what? for being lazy? (funny to say that when people on the forum have time to be in front of PC while athlete is out there training hard) or for not being creative? or penalty for not trying to entertain the needs of audience?
They are athlete not celebrity doing concert. So penalty for what?

 

[lyverbird1]

Much easier to take a recycled programme when it's one you were a huge fan of. I enjoyed seeing Hip Hip Chin Chin again and I haven't heard too many complaints from Yuzuru ubers this year.

 

[lyverbird1]

During the backstage tour at US Nationals this year, the guide (Kim?) said that she was not aware of any of the ladies costumes that were under $5000.
Also another interesting tidbit: the costumes don't get washed (the ladies). Instead cheap vodka is put into a spray bottle and used for spot cleaning! :eeking:

That piece of information has made me feel slightly queasy. Both from the idea of garments not being washed properly and the wanton waste of good vodka...

 

[sinnerspinner]

It's horrible! I can understand two seasons maybe, but THREE??? That's boring and stale.
Ok, i get that certain performers may have issues with learning new routines. If ones head injuries are that bad, maybe it's time to retire???
I don't know if a penalty will work, but something needs to be done. They definitely shouldn't get a pcs boost!

In my best Tara voice,"Threeee years?????"

 

[LiamForeman]

I find it especially odd because most people (in all the disciplines) work off the same blue-print season after season now. The programs are virtually indistinguishable in tone, composition, and content and yet they find it so difficult to just use a bit of different music. It's bizarre to me.

I agree. I really noticed it in Ashley's LLL. I was thinking "Isn't this pretty much Moulin Rouge with slight modifications?". I hardly see much difference in Med's programs also.

 

[SarahSynchro]

Much easier to take a recycled programme when it's one you were a huge fan of. I enjoyed seeing Hip Hip Chin Chin again and I haven't heard too many complaints from Yuzuru ubers this year.

In fact, my Yuzudaughter thinks Chopin is boring and wants him to bring back Prince!