Confused about the new Waltz

[Arigato]

same thing every year.... the 90s music ...nobody wanted to do the real fun dance music from the 90s so they all took weird approaches.

Madonna's Vogue was released in 1990 and was the best-selling single of 1990. Hit number one in 30 countries. I enjoyed watching LFB/GC skate the program. What is your idea of a fun song from the 90's? Just curious.

Btw, if all the ISU did was stipulate 3/4 time for the RD, I don't see the problem if anyone takes great license with it.

 

[4everchan]

Madonna's Vogue was released in 1990 and was the best-selling single of 1990. Hit number one in 30 countries. I enjoyed watching LFB/GC skate the program. What is your idea of a fun song from the 90's? Just curious.

Btw, if all the ISU did was stipulate 3/4 time for the RD, I don't see the problem if anyone takes great license with it.

so many bands... no enough time to list them...I was thinking more about electronic dance music.

The issu is that the ISU not only stipulated 3/4 time but also 6/8 time, the latter isn't waltz..

 

[applepi]

Madonna's Vogue was released in 1990 and was the best-selling single of 1990. Hit number one in 30 countries. I enjoyed watching LFB/GC skate the program. What is your idea of a fun song from the 90's? Just curious.

I personally enjoyed that Yoshida/Morita did a DDR-inspired rd since it was a creative choice, even though it's debatably not really 90's (by release date, sure, but by cultural impact, I feel like DDR is kinda on the fringe). I think a lot of the 90s theming ended up feeling a bit cheesy since there were a lot of repeated songs across programs and because people were already tired of the decades theming after multiple years of it.

For the waltz, it's not like I am hoping for or expecting a pure waltz given the waltz + rhythm constraints, but there are many program announcements where I have a hard time fitting a waltz to the song(s) they chose. It really does feel like the ISU allowing 6/8 is part of that, but you also have teams that have already received tempo violations, teams trying to make something that should be 12/8 work, etc. so it's not even the 6/8 alone. Some of these choices are just baffling at their core... and vice versa, there are some teams that want to play it straight where I wonder how they're going to handle fitting the additional rhythm part into it. It's really another theming issue imo that's brought about a lot of baffling sounding programs

 

[Mathman]

I personally enjoyed that Yoshida/Morita did a DDR-inspired rd since it was a creative choice, even though it's debatably not really 90's (by release date, sure, but by cultural impact, I feel like DDR is kinda on the fringe)...

My memory -- no doubt faulty -- of fan reaction to "Voguing" and the Madonna music is that cultural purists turned up their noses at it -- "You call that Voguing?"

 

[TallyT]

To paraphrase Humpty Dumpty, "when we say a waltz, it means just what anyone and everyone chooses it to mean - neither more nor less."

 

[Mathman]

Oh, I don't know that I agree with Humpty on that one. Words do have meanings --how could we communicate otherwise?

ONE-two-three, ONE-two three, rise and fall --that sort of thing.

 

[FSFan1999]

Lots of ballroom dancers dance the Viennese Waltz (which golden waltz was based off) to 6/8, simply as 3/4 waltzes are rarely fast enough for the Viennese Waltz. Below is a good example of the difference in sounds. I will say 3/4 is still probably more common, but from my albeit limited knowledge 6/8 is still accepted in the ballroom world.

For me, when the music gets really fast, 6/8 can very much be used LIKE a waltz without much issue (I'm not calling it a real waltz obviously).

The ISU specifically wants many different types of music for the golden waltz, even if there isn't an original waltz feel (Often blues have 6/8 underlying the 4/4 main beat, so if you skate it on 6/8 then it is fine to use as well for example, under these regulations). This is the part I disagree with. For me, if there is a heavy 4/4 beat with a much less noticeable 6/8 beat, vs 6/8beat that has the "divisions" at a similar volume to the main beat, then it's too much away from a waltz.

I may be in the minority here, but IMO, lots of parts of the golden waltz lend themselves to 6/8 quite nicely actually, even if 3/4 has a more traditional waltz feel. I just don't like a waltz skated on blues music specifically personally.

It's not easier or harder to skate to it in 6/8, it just opens up a ton of music and variety, and I am not totally against that. We've all complained about programs looking the same in the decades' themes - I love classical music, but I'd find it equally boring if all music used was classical.

 

[4everchan]

^ the example provided shows exactly why 6/8 feels wrong. Two beats per measure compared to three beats for 3/4. Not sure what you mean by 6/8 fitting in 4/4. The maths don't line up for this unless you mean some version of 12/8.
I'd be fine with a variety of music and styles if we could still recognize the music and its essence. It's not the case right now

 

[FSFan1999]

^ the example provided shows exactly why 6/8 feels wrong. Two beats per measure compared to three beats for 3/4. Not sure what you mean by 6/8 fitting in 4/4. The maths don't line up for this unless you mean some version of 12/8.
I'd be fine with a variety of music and styles if we could still recognize the music and it's essence. It's not the case right now

You can "make 6/8" in 4/4 with the use of triplets and backbeats on beats 2 and 4. Realistically, the sound is similar to 2/4 rather than 4/4. It's quite a confusing conversion, but essentially lots of 6/8 blues sounds explicitly 4/4 (and sometimes is notated as 4/4, but you can still hear the same beat as you would with 6/8 because of the backbeats every 2 beats. Without the backbeats, I guess the sound you hear is 12/8, and with backbeats, the sound you hear is 6/8.
At least that's my (very low-level) music theory understanding.

 

[4everchan]

You can "make 6/8" in 4/4 with the use of triplets and backbeats on beats 2 and 4. Realistically, the sound is similar to 2/4 rather than 4/4. It's quite a confusing conversion, but essentially lots of 6/8 blues sounds explicitly 4/4 (and sometimes is notated as 4/4, but you can still hear the same beat as you would with 6/8 because of the backbeats every 2 beats. Without the backbeats, I guess the sound you hear is 12/8, and with backbeats, the sound you hear is 6/8.
At least that's my (very low-level) music theory understanding.

Well. If you constantly have triplets in 2/4 or 4/4 sure, you will get the illusion of compound meter but it still isn't so...
I didn't want to get into this very much because just the basic arithmetic behind meter can be confusing but what defines a meter is not only its content but how its content is organized.

There is a hierarchy involved in meter, strong and weak beats. If you divide each of your beats in triplets in a simple meter, you still don't get a true compound meter. Just like when you use 6/8, you will not get a waltz because 6/8 has only two beats per measure and a waltz has 3.

Sure, people can use the subdivisions and pretend that it gives three beats but it doesn't because the next 1, which is on the 4th eight note is a weak beat in 6/8. So, it's not a waltz In 6/8 you don't get the lift on the 23 56 eight notes like you do get on beats 2 and 3 of a waltz.

A waltz requires not only 3 beats per measure but It requires a heavy downbeat to start the measure and two, light "lifted" beats creating the feeling of suspension. In 6/8 that feeling is completely missed.

There are tons of other 3/4 meters that aren't Waltz either. Minuet, Mazurka, Spanish bolero, even some Jazz and Rock pieces can be in 3/4 but they aren't waltzes because they do not follow the OOM-Pa-Pa hierarchical organisation of meter.

So here, to answer the OP, the reason why people who are accustomed to hear waltzes don't hear them in many rhythm dances is simple, they are not waltzes

Whether or not one can organize any measure into creating the illusion that it contains 3 beats is another concept altogether... Sure... add triplets to you 4/4 but it's still not a waltz . It will work with the number of beats required perhaps... if it's at the right tempo, but it just cannot give the feeling of the waltz. And that's why people are confused or complain. Or simply upset like I am

I guess this is the main problem is that some dancers, ballroom or ice dancers do not understand that music is not just about the number of beats but more importantly how the beats are interacting together in creating the energy specific of each type of dance.

Here is an example. This is a piece in 3/4. Not a waltz. It's a sarabande with the emphasis put on the second beat. So imagine, when people try to make waltzes out of 4/4 divided into triplets or 6/8. Trained musicians can tell right away they are not waltzes. Untrained musicians who actually have listened to many waltzes are simply confused. Skaters and dancers can use music however they want to put their patterns of turns and steps on the ice, it still won't be a waltz if it ain't one rhythmically.

 

[TontoK]

Oh, I don't know that I agree with Humpty on that one. Words do have meanings --how could we communicate otherwise?

ONE-two-three, ONE-two three, rise and fall --that sort of thing.

Yes. And grand sweeping movement., and a sense of elegance. That, too.

Despite @4everchan patient explanations concerning 3/4 and 6/8 timing, I confess I'm just not musically adept enough to follow a lot of the discussion. But I absolutely believe him.

But I at least want to watch the ice dancers and imagine they're in an old movie, gliding and smiling and making me wish I could do something that effortlessly and gracefully, looking all spiffy and handsome with a pretty lady gazing at me adoringly. I want the fantasy! I hope we don't see any "waltzes" to droning EMO music of pop funk. I ain't afraid to be a hater.

 

[NanaPat]

Yes. And grand sweeping movement., and a sense of elegance. That, too.

Despite @4everchan patient explanations concerning 3/4 and 6/8 timing, I confess I'm just not musically adept enough to follow a lot of the discussion. But I absolutely believe him.

But I at least want to watch the ice dancers and imagine they're in an old movie, gliding and smiling and making me wish I could do something that effortlessly and gracefully, looking all spiffy and handsome with a pretty lady gazing at me adoringly. I want the fantasy! I hope we don't see any "waltzes" to droning EMO music of pop funk. I ain't afraid to be a hater.

For your viewing pleasure:


Too bad they can't compete internationally this year.

 

[FSFan1999]

Well. If you constantly have triplets in 2/4 or 4/4 sure, you will get the illusion of compound meter but it still isn't so...
I didn't want to get into this very much because just the basic arithmetic behind meter can be confusing but what defines a meter is not only its content but how its content is organized.

There is a hierarchy involved in meter, strong and weak beats. If you divide each of your beats in triplets in a simple meter, you still don't get a true compound meter. Just like when you use 6/8, you will not get a waltz because 6/8 has only two beats per measure and a waltz has 3.

Sure, people can use the subdivisions and pretend that it gives three beats but it doesn't because the next 1, which is on the 4th eight note is a weak beat in 6/8. So, it's not a waltz In 6/8 you don't get the lift on the 23 56 eight notes like you do get on beats 2 and 3 of a waltz.

A waltz requires not only 3 beats per measure but It requires a heavy downbeat to start the measure and two, light "lifted" beats creating the feeling of suspension. In 6/8 that feeling is completely missed.

There are tons of other 3/4 meters that aren't Waltz either. Minuet, Mazurka, Spanish bolero, even some Jazz and Rock pieces can be in 3/4 but they aren't waltzes because they do not follow the OOM-Pa-Pa hierarchical organisation of meter.

So here, to answer the OP, the reason why people who are accustomed to hear waltzes don't hear them in many rhythm dances is simple, they are not waltzes

Whether or not one can organize any measure into creating the illusion that it contains 3 beats is another concept altogether... Sure... add triplets to you 4/4 but it's still not a waltz . It will work with the number of beats required perhaps... if it's at the right tempo, but it just cannot give the feeling of the waltz. And that's why people are confused or complain. Or simply upset like I am

I guess this is the main problem is that some dancers, ballroom or ice dancers do not understand that music is not just about the number of beats but more importantly how the beats are interacting together in creating the energy specific of each type of dance.

Here is an example. This is a piece in 3/4. Not a waltz. It's a sarabande with the emphasis put on the second beat. So imagine, when people try to make waltzes out of 4/4 divided into triplets or 6/8. Trained musicians can tell right away they are not waltzes. Untrained musicians who actually have listened to many waltzes are simply confused. Skaters and dancers can use music however they want to put their patterns of turns and steps on the ice, it still won't be a waltz if it ain't one rhythmically.

I agree 6/8 is not a waltz, I just think as a skated pattern 6/8 works very well for golden "waltz" (waltz in quotes as I gathee you probably hate me calling it a waltz if it is skated on 6/8, from a definitional standpoint).

Controversially, I dont like Lim/Lagha's waltz. Yes its 3/4, but the dance doesnt feel powerful and the music isnt accenting the dance well (for me). Its totally my opinion, but for me it becomes background music. Of course, there is plenty of 3/4 music that accents it well. I think masquerade for example will be perfect, and lots (not all but lots) of the isu golden music was very nice. Maybe golden waltz works better as a CD and not an RD, in fact probably it does when requiring a strict 3/4 timing.

I get that it's called "waltz plus rhythm", so definitionally it should be strict 3/4 timing. I would have had different theme name. But for golden "waltz" as a PD, I love 6/8 music used for it.

Now... what I very much do not like are the huge alterations in pattern for a lot of the field. I really think it takes a lot of difficulty out of it. It removes apple to apple comparisons. It is ridicuously easy to bombard around the rink at high speeds - I guess skaters think it will show off skating skills. But really, the difficulty is using the edges to contain the dance in the way it was supposed to be skated, and even with less speed shows higher quality of SS than these ridiculous patterns. I know it has always been an OSP, but when you remove half the dance, the "optional" gives way too much freedom to make it much easier. I really respect the couples like Lim/Lagha trying to do it on traditional pattern.

 

[Mathman]

Wait, wait? "America" from West Side Story is a waltz?

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(Music by Leonard Berstein, choreography by Jerome Robbins.)

 

[FSFan1999]

Wait, wait? "America" from West Side Story is a waltz?

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Music by Leonard Berstein, choreography by Jerome Robbins.)

Mixed beat. Alternates 3/4 with 6/8. Obviously more difficult to hear in this clip. It does illustrait well the difference between 3/4 and 6/8 when music is clear.

 

[Mathman]

Thank you everyone for a vigorous and educational discussion!

For me, this is a waltz. (Klimova and Ponomareko, Euros, 1986, music by Johann Strauss, choreography by Natali Dobova and Elena Kholina).

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

This team in fact is credited with inventing the Golden Waltz the next year, I believe.

 

[Mathman]

You can "make 6/8" in 4/4 with the use of triplets and backbeats on beats 2 and 4. Realistically, the sound is similar to 2/4 rather than 4/4.

I totally agree. 6/8 can be made similar to 4/2, but if it's a four-beat with triplets effect hat you are aiming at, that'should be 12/8 yes?

Edit: Actually, whenever this question comes up, whether in regard to ice dance or just musical theory, I can't help mentioning Fats Domino's Blueberry Hill as the quintessential example.

 

[TontoK]

For your viewing pleasure:


Too bad they can't compete internationally this year.

Yes. Exactly what I was talking about! This is going to be even more beautiful with some mileage.

 

[FSFan1999]

I totally agree. 6/8 can be made similar to 4/2, but if it's a four-beat with triplets effect hat you are aiming at, that'should be 12/8 yes?

I think 4/4 can sound like 12/8 if no backbeats, 6/8 with backbeats.

E.g. if I have 4/4 with backbeat on 2 and 4, and triplets, then it's equivalent to 6/8 (and a lot of blues is structured like that traditionally iirc, or at least I was told so at a seminar once). In that sense, whether its written as 6/8 or 4/4 (or maybe evn 2/4 I guess?1?) then it can become equivalent (I think?)

Im not a time signature expert though, starting to get a headache and apologise if I made a mistake?

Unrelated, but some 6/8 can sound like 3/4 or 12/8. For me golden hour sounds like 6/8, but sometimes I see it transcribed as 3/4 and sometimes 12/8

 

[4everchan]

I totally agree. 6/8 can be made similar to 4/2, but if it's a four-beat with triplets effect hat you are aiming at, that'should be 12/8 yes?

well well well... let's get into something else here :

Composers are the ones choosing meter for a piece when they write it. If they want 12/8 they will write a measure made of 4 beats of dotted quarter notes. That way, you can hear the compound meter effect. If they want a simple meter, they will write 4/4. If by chance, the four quarter note beats are divided into triplets, you still don't get 12/8 but 4/4 with triplets.

Of course, people can arrange and rearrange, decompose and recompose things to fit the ISU requirements and could make almost anything almost sound like a waltz... in the end, if the composer didn't create a waltz, it is not a waltz and trained ears will know about it.