Consequences of different boot designs?

[Query]

My 20+ year old Klingbeil "soft dance" custom boots are way past the time to discard. They never fit, though they were full customs, because a "fitter" did it wrong. And they have grown far too soft.

Over the years I learned quite a bit about modifying boots to try to compensate for these things, which was fun, but you can only compensate so much. I'd like a pair of full custom boots that fit right from the start.

I never got beyond practicing the first 6 ice dances, and half rotation jumps, and scratch spins with too much forward travel. (My Klingbeils took over 6 years to break in.)

I tried a pair of low level Risport boots (I would guess around $200-300 used), used so slightly it didn't matter. They broke down in a little over a month, though they initially fit quite well. Despite my permanent low level, I try to use deep knee bends and deep edges. Perhaps low level boots aren't designed for that. I am 140-145 lbs, 5' 3.5", male. I'm a senior citizen, and am losing rather than gaining strength and flexibility, so I will not advance.

I also tried a pair of unused Graf Edmonton Special boots, that were free to me, so I couldn't resist. I did a lot of modifications to make them fit snugly, because they were a full size too big - otherwise the rounded Graf toe would not have fit my wedge shaped feet. But between their intended use as high level freestyle boots, and the size difference, they are more heavy and bulky than would be ideal. Above the ankle, they have more than enough space in front and back than my limited point and flex ankle flexibility allows, so that isn't a problem - except that means there is no support there. I could repair them (a heel came apart), but they aren't right for me. I would like something snug yet somewhat soft in front and back, and ideally as durable as the Klingbeils were.

1. The shoes I find most comfortable don't have elevated heels.

What are the consequences of having no heel lift, or very little? (There are multiple meanings to "heel lift". I'm referring here to the bend in boots at the ball of the foot, that lifts the heel into the air, not to the meanings relating to blades.) If the rest of the boot, including the part over the forefoot, is shaped snugly, I think I wouldn't need a bend at the ball to avoid sliding forwards.

Would that make it hard to reach the toepick? I've tried rental skates (none of which fit me well - I have a wedge shaped foot - narrow heels, wider midfoot, much wider toes; 2nd toes are longest. My upper feet have somewhat high volume, and have fairly large ankle bones; my toes are a bit short.), and I had trouble reaching the toepick - though that is partly the shape of rental skate blades, which are designed to make it harder to reach the toepick.

2. Likewise, what are the consequences have having little or no forward tilt of the foot bottom? I'm also always fighting too much forward lean - it's hard to put much weight on my heels. And that's not only due to a forward leaning spine; I think it is mostly ankle flexibility issue.

I could try mounting my figure skating blades on hockey boots; I bought a used pair that almost fit, which have less bend and tilt in the footbed. But despite heat molding, they don't provide very snug ankle support, which a skate tech said is typical of hockey boots - so I'm not sure the experiment would be worth it.

3. I have osteo arthritis, including bone spurs at the back of my metatarsals. A podiatrist told me I need rigid forefoot soles in my shoes. Of course virtually all skates have that, to avoid warping the blades. But if any have a thick squishy midsole, I would avoid them. And maybe the upwards bend at the ball of the foot is a bad idea for me too (the podiatrist was not a sports specialist)...

4. SP Teri advertises that their boots are designed to balance at the center rather than at the ball. Does that mean they have little or no heel lift and forward foot tilt? Are there other boots like that?

5. Is there anything about boot design that affects spin? I tend to travel forwards.

6. I'm thinking about Jackson boots, because they build custom boots faster than Harlick & Avanta, both of which some people say take 18 months. I can't wait that long. I'm not sure if this is still true, but a Riedell factory rep once told me that don't build skates for people with wide toes.

7. What would good blades be for me? I still have a enough Matrix I style blades with a lot of lifetime left - mostly Ultima Matrix I Dance, but also Supreme and Synchro. But I'm tired of fighting the short spin rocker segment length and the 8' main rocker, which require more control than I have. I used to have MK Dance, which I loved, partly because they were faster, and the drag pick wasn't aggressive, but they are costly blades for a senior citizen who is losing rather than gaining strength and flexibility. Besides, I do still want to practice low level jumps. Would Eclipse Dance be similar, in terms of thinline design for speed, and less aggressive drag pick?

8. Would that make it harder to spin?

9. The MK Gold Star is advertised to have a secondary pseudo-spin rocker in the back, to make it easier to spin (by increasing one of the other meanings of "heel lift"). Are there lower level blades, but with less aggressive drag picks, that have that too? I could modify other blades to add a secondary rocker in the back, but am not sure how much change would be appropriate, and I don't want to make even my low level jumps harder to land.

10. Should I wait until the new boots arrive, before sizing new blades? At one point, a Klingbeil rep told me that Klingbeil custom boot outsoles were sized to the length of one's feet (though maybe it should be the radial projection of the feet), which was the reason it made sense to pick blades whose mounting plates were the same length or a bit shorter. Yet a lot of coaches say that blades should be sized to the outsoles even on non-custom boots, though that makes no physical sense to me, since AFAIK the length of the outsole has no effect on skating. In any event, the bend and tilt of the footbed changes the projected foot length, so maybe I should wait...

There is a pretty good pro shop, by reputation, a couple hours from where I live, but I would love any help you guys can give.

 

[Diana Delafield]

My 20+ year old Klingbeil "soft dance" custom boots are way past the time to discard. They never fit, though they were full customs, because a "fitter" did it wrong. And they have grown far too soft.

Over the years I learned quite a bit about modifying boots to try to compensate for these things, which was fun, but you can only compensate so much. I'd like a pair of full custom boots that fit right from the start.

I never got beyond practicing the first 6 ice dances, and half rotation jumps, and scratch spins with too much forward travel. (My Klingbeils took over 6 years to break in.)

I tried a pair of low level Risport boots (I would guess around $200-300 used), used so slightly it didn't matter. They broke down in a little over a month, though they initially fit quite well. Despite my permanent low level, I try to use deep knee bends and deep edges. Perhaps low level boots aren't designed for that. I am 140-145 lbs, 5' 3.5", male. I'm a senior citizen, and am losing rather than gaining strength and flexibility, so I will not advance.

I also tried a pair of unused Graf Edmonton Special boots, that were free to me, so I couldn't resist. I did a lot of modifications to make them fit snugly, because they were a full size too big - otherwise the rounded Graf toe would not have fit my wedge shaped feet. But between their intended use as high level freestyle boots, and the size difference, they are more heavy and bulky than would be ideal. Above the ankle, they have more than enough space in front and back than my limited point and flex ankle flexibility allows, so that isn't a problem - except that means there is no support there. I could repair them (a heel came apart), but they aren't right for me. I would like something snug yet somewhat soft in front and back, and ideally as durable as the Klingbeils were.

1. The shoes I find most comfortable don't have elevated heels.

What are the consequences of having no heel lift, or very little? (There are multiple meanings to "heel lift". I'm referring here to the bend in boots at the ball of the foot, that lifts the heel into the air, not to the meanings relating to blades.) If the rest of the boot, including the part over the forefoot, is shaped snugly, I think I wouldn't need a bend at the ball to avoid sliding forwards.

Would that make it hard to reach the toepick? I've tried rental skates (none of which fit me well - I have a wedge shaped foot - narrow heels, wider midfoot, much wider toes; 2nd toes are longest. My upper feet have somewhat high volume, and have fairly large ankle bones; my toes are a bit short.), and I had trouble reaching the toepick - though that is partly the shape of rental skate blades, which are designed to make it harder to reach the toepick.

2. Likewise, what are the consequences have having little or no forward tilt of the foot bottom? I'm also always fighting too much forward lean - it's hard to put much weight on my heels. And that's not only due to a forward leaning spine; I think it is mostly ankle flexibility issue.

I could try mounting my figure skating blades on hockey boots; I bought a used pair that almost fit, which have less bend and tilt in the footbed. But despite heat molding, they don't provide very snug ankle support, which a skate tech said is typical of hockey boots - so I'm not sure the experiment would be worth it.

3. I have osteo arthritis, including bone spurs at the back of my metatarsals. A podiatrist told me I need rigid forefoot soles in my shoes. Of course virtually all skates have that, to avoid warping the blades. But if any have a thick squishy midsole, I would avoid them. And maybe the upwards bend at the ball of the foot is a bad idea for me too (the podiatrist was not a sports specialist)...

4. SP Teri advertises that their boots are designed to balance at the center rather than at the ball. Does that mean they have little or no heel lift and forward foot tilt? Are there other boots like that?

5. Is there anything about boot design that affects spin? I tend to travel forwards.

6. I'm thinking about Jackson boots, because they build custom boots faster than Harlick & Avanta, both of which some people say take 18 months. I can't wait that long. I'm not sure if this is still true, but a Riedell factory rep once told me that don't build skates for people with wide toes.

7. What would good blades be for me? I still have a enough Matrix I style blades with a lot of lifetime left - mostly Ultima Matrix I Dance, but also Supreme and Synchro. But I'm tired of fighting the short spin rocker segment length and the 8' main rocker, which require more control than I have. I used to have MK Dance, which I loved, partly because they were faster, and the drag pick wasn't aggressive, but they are costly blades for a senior citizen who is losing rather than gaining strength and flexibility. Besides, I do still want to practice low level jumps. Would Eclipse Dance be similar, in terms of thinline design for speed, and less aggressive drag pick?

8. Would that make it harder to spin?

9. The MK Gold Star is advertised to have a secondary pseudo-spin rocker in the back, to make it easier to spin (by increasing one of the other meanings of "heel lift"). Are there lower level blades, but with less aggressive drag picks, that have that too? I could modify other blades to add a secondary rocker in the back, but am not sure how much change would be appropriate, and I don't want to make even my low level jumps harder to land.

10. Should I wait until the new boots arrive, before sizing new blades? At one point, a Klingbeil rep told me that Klingbeil custom boot outsoles were sized to the length of one's feet (though maybe it should be the radial projection of the feet), which was the reason it made sense to pick blades whose mounting plates were the same length or a bit shorter. Yet a lot of coaches say that blades should be sized to the outsoles even on non-custom boots, though that makes no physical sense to me, since AFAIK the length of the outsole has no effect on skating. In any event, the bend and tilt of the footbed changes the projected foot length, so maybe I should wait...

There is a pretty good pro shop, by reputation, a couple hours from where I live, but I would love any help you guys can give.

In the description of your foot shape, you don't mention if you have high, medium, or low arches. That obviously makes a difference in how the midsole of various boot brands fits. (I have freakishly high arches. I've tried on boots that left so much space under my arch I could have tucked my wallet and keys in there for safekeeping while I skated.)

On a side note, keep at the deep knee bend while you skate! The leg strength that builds will serve you well off the ice just walking as you get older. A few years back I sprained an ankle tripping over the cat, and borrowed a walker to get around for several weeks. It wasn't fun, physically or psychologically.

 

[looper]

My 20+ year old Klingbeil "soft dance" custom boots are way past the time to discard. They never fit, though they were full customs, because a "fitter" did it wrong. And they have grown far too soft.

Over the years I learned quite a bit about modifying boots to try to compensate for these things, which was fun, but you can only compensate so much. I'd like a pair of full custom boots that fit right from the start.

I never got beyond practicing the first 6 ice dances, and half rotation jumps, and scratch spins with too much forward travel. (My Klingbeils took over 6 years to break in.)

I tried a pair of low level Risport boots (I would guess around $200-300 used), used so slightly it didn't matter. They broke down in a little over a month, though they initially fit quite well. Despite my permanent low level, I try to use deep knee bends and deep edges. Perhaps low level boots aren't designed for that. I am 140-145 lbs, 5' 3.5", male. I'm a senior citizen, and am losing rather than gaining strength and flexibility, so I will not advance.

I also tried a pair of unused Graf Edmonton Special boots, that were free to me, so I couldn't resist. I did a lot of modifications to make them fit snugly, because they were a full size too big - otherwise the rounded Graf toe would not have fit my wedge shaped feet. But between their intended use as high level freestyle boots, and the size difference, they are more heavy and bulky than would be ideal. Above the ankle, they have more than enough space in front and back than my limited point and flex ankle flexibility allows, so that isn't a problem - except that means there is no support there. I could repair them (a heel came apart), but they aren't right for me. I would like something snug yet somewhat soft in front and back, and ideally as durable as the Klingbeils were.

1. The shoes I find most comfortable don't have elevated heels.

What are the consequences of having no heel lift, or very little? (There are multiple meanings to "heel lift". I'm referring here to the bend in boots at the ball of the foot, that lifts the heel into the air, not to the meanings relating to blades.) If the rest of the boot, including the part over the forefoot, is shaped snugly, I think I wouldn't need a bend at the ball to avoid sliding forwards.

Would that make it hard to reach the toepick? I've tried rental skates (none of which fit me well - I have a wedge shaped foot - narrow heels, wider midfoot, much wider toes; 2nd toes are longest. My upper feet have somewhat high volume, and have fairly large ankle bones; my toes are a bit short.), and I had trouble reaching the toepick - though that is partly the shape of rental skate blades, which are designed to make it harder to reach the toepick.

2. Likewise, what are the consequences have having little or no forward tilt of the foot bottom? I'm also always fighting too much forward lean - it's hard to put much weight on my heels. And that's not only due to a forward leaning spine; I think it is mostly ankle flexibility issue.

I could try mounting my figure skating blades on hockey boots; I bought a used pair that almost fit, which have less bend and tilt in the footbed. But despite heat molding, they don't provide very snug ankle support, which a skate tech said is typical of hockey boots - so I'm not sure the experiment would be worth it.

3. I have osteo arthritis, including bone spurs at the back of my metatarsals. A podiatrist told me I need rigid forefoot soles in my shoes. Of course virtually all skates have that, to avoid warping the blades. But if any have a thick squishy midsole, I would avoid them. And maybe the upwards bend at the ball of the foot is a bad idea for me too (the podiatrist was not a sports specialist)...

4. SP Teri advertises that their boots are designed to balance at the center rather than at the ball. Does that mean they have little or no heel lift and forward foot tilt? Are there other boots like that?

5. Is there anything about boot design that affects spin? I tend to travel forwards.

6. I'm thinking about Jackson boots, because they build custom boots faster than Harlick & Avanta, both of which some people say take 18 months. I can't wait that long. I'm not sure if this is still true, but a Riedell factory rep once told me that don't build skates for people with wide toes.

7. What would good blades be for me? I still have a enough Matrix I style blades with a lot of lifetime left - mostly Ultima Matrix I Dance, but also Supreme and Synchro. But I'm tired of fighting the short spin rocker segment length and the 8' main rocker, which require more control than I have. I used to have MK Dance, which I loved, partly because they were faster, and the drag pick wasn't aggressive, but they are costly blades for a senior citizen who is losing rather than gaining strength and flexibility. Besides, I do still want to practice low level jumps. Would Eclipse Dance be similar, in terms of thinline design for speed, and less aggressive drag pick?

8. Would that make it harder to spin?

9. The MK Gold Star is advertised to have a secondary pseudo-spin rocker in the back, to make it easier to spin (by increasing one of the other meanings of "heel lift"). Are there lower level blades, but with less aggressive drag picks, that have that too? I could modify other blades to add a secondary rocker in the back, but am not sure how much change would be appropriate, and I don't want to make even my low level jumps harder to land.

10. Should I wait until the new boots arrive, before sizing new blades? At one point, a Klingbeil rep told me that Klingbeil custom boot outsoles were sized to the length of one's feet (though maybe it should be the radial projection of the feet), which was the reason it made sense to pick blades whose mounting plates were the same length or a bit shorter. Yet a lot of coaches say that blades should be sized to the outsoles even on non-custom boots, though that makes no physical sense to me, since AFAIK the length of the outsole has no effect on skating. In any event, the bend and tilt of the footbed changes the projected foot length, so maybe I should wait...

There is a pretty good pro shop, by reputation, a couple hours from where I live, but I would love any help you guys can give.

 

[Query]

In the description of your foot shape, you don't mention if you have high, medium, or low arches. That obviously makes a difference in how the midsole of various boot brands fits. (I have freakishly high arches. I've tried on boots that left so much space under my arch I could have tucked my wallet and keys in there for safekeeping while I skated.)

On a side note, keep at the deep knee bend while you skate! The leg strength that builds will serve you well off the ice just walking as you get older. A few years back I sprained an ankle tripping over the cat, and borrowed a walker to get around for several weeks. It wasn't fun, physically or psychologically.

Medium arches, which collapse symmetrically to a normal extent under weight. But I cut my own skate insoles (out of camping mattress foam) to compensate for the sideways tilt of the bottom of my feet, perhaps created because one leg is about 1/2" longer than the other. That sideways tilt effectively would otherwise create a pronation-like effect in one foot, a supination-like effect in the other, in that without customized insoles, I would only have contact under the left sides of my feet. (Might not have helped that I was misfit for skates while standing on both feet, which emphasized that tilt.) Because I cut them to fit 3-dimensionally, I have uniform contact pressure across all parts of the bottom of my feet, and fairly uniform pressure along the sides of the bottom of my feet. So no, I definitely can't fit a wallet and keys underneath my feet. I did try fitting a spare key under the insole in my shoes, but I eventually felt them, and decided it was a bad idea.

I wonder if skating in boots that left space for wallets and keys is optimal? Maybe you should ask a podiatrist... Perhaps you could use a neck wallet (that hangs from a cord) to hold money and keys? Or a cross body smartphone case that has room for both - though I admit that for an elite figure skating athlete, they might affect your balance a bit.

How should arch height affect midsole design in skates? I found academic articles on arch height and midsoles in running and basketball shoes, but not skates.

If the podiatrist is right in saying I should use shoes that minimize forefoot motion, perhaps I shouldn't pick too soft a midsole... Except that all the skates I have used, ice, roller and inline, have had soles that were much less flexible than the orthotic shoes I was prescribed. I'm also inclined to avoid a fit that lets the front of my toes touch the front of the boot, on the theory that that could create excess forefoot motion too, especially during jumps.

Perhaps I should see a real sports podiatrist (there is one in Baltimore, one in Wilmington, that a lot of D.C. area skaters go to), and also ask them about the custom insoles I cut for myself - whether they should change in any way. (E.g., the orthotist prescribed 3-layer insoles for my shoes - stiffest at the bottom.) I called the office of the one in Baltimore - he only modifies skate boots, but doesn't fit or specify them.

 

[Query]

Looper, did you mean to do more than quote me? Somehow the reply got lost.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Medium arches, which collapse symmetrically to a normal extent under weight. But I cut my own skate insoles (out of camping mattress foam) to compensate for the sideways tilt of the bottom of my feet, perhaps created because one leg is about 1/2" longer than the other. That sideways tilt effectively would otherwise create a pronation-like effect in one foot, a supination-like effect in the other, in that without customized insoles, I would only have contact under the left sides of my feet. (Might not have helped that I was misfit for skates while standing on both feet, which emphasized that tilt.) Because I cut them to fit 3-dimensionally, I have uniform contact pressure across all parts of the bottom of my feet, and fairly uniform pressure along the sides of the bottom of my feet. So no, I definitely can't fit a wallet and keys underneath my feet. I did try fitting a spare key under the insole in my shoes, but I eventually felt them, and decided it was a bad idea.

I wonder if skating in boots that left space for wallets and keys is optimal? Maybe you should ask a podiatrist... Perhaps you could use a neck wallet (that hangs from a cord) to hold money and keys? Or a cross body smartphone case that has room for both - though I admit that for an elite figure skating athlete, they might affect your balance a bit.

How should arch height affect midsole design in skates? I found academic articles on arch height and midsoles in running and basketball shoes, but not skates.

If the podiatrist is right in saying I should use shoes that minimize forefoot motion, perhaps I shouldn't pick too soft a midsole... Except that all the skates I have used, ice, roller and inline, have had soles that were much less flexible than the orthotic shoes I was prescribed. I'm also inclined to avoid a fit that lets the front of my toes touch the front of the boot, on the theory that that could create excess forefoot motion too, especially during jumps.

Perhaps I should see a real sports podiatrist (there is one in Baltimore, one in Wilmington, that a lot of D.C. area skaters go to), and also ask them about the custom insoles I cut for myself - whether they should change in any way. (E.g., the orthotist prescribed 3-layer insoles for my shoes - stiffest at the bottom.) I called the office of the one in Baltimore - he only modifies skate boots, but doesn't fit or specify them.

1. I was joking about the wallet and keys . At my club I have a locker for possessions. When I rented private ice at a public arena and was alone, I left my purse with valuables on the ice, tucked against the boards-plus-glass and far enough from a gate that no one could reach it over the boards when I wasn't looking or would have to walk, slithering along the ice to get at it and I would have seen them. But I just meant that as a picturesque way to describe a hollow under my high arch in a boot with a flatter insole.

2. I've never added an extra insole to skate boots. I buy (or my parents bought when I was a kid since I started skating at 5) boot brands that have a high curve under my arch already. I had an uncle and grandfather who manufactured safety work boots, so we had insider knowledge, as it were. And I buy very narrow widths for my very narrow feet. Never experienced any sliding around or gaps. Either I've been very lucky, or I'm just not all that fussy, I don't know. I spend time during the fitting trying out different actions in a potential pair, and then I make my choice. When I get my new boots with the blades attached, I just put them on and go. Never had -- or probably should say never noticed, which is not quite the same thing -- any fit problems affecting my skating.

3. A sports podiatrist sounds like a good idea for you. Advice from someone who actually sees your feet, examines the way you stand, can see your skate boots if you take them to the appointment.

 

[Query]

3. A sports podiatrist sounds like a good idea for you. Advice from someone who actually sees your feet, examines the way you stand, can see your skate boots if you take them to the appointment.

AFAIK (I called Dr. Meissner's office and asked), the available semi-local sports podiatrists who have a good reputation for handling skaters (Dr. Paul Meissner in Baltimore, who happens to be Kimmie's dad, and Dr. Jonathon P Contompasis in Wilmington) don't fit people for skate boots, or choose boots. They only modify boots that don't fit well. Which by now I've mostly figured out how to do for myself, though I'd rather start with boots that don't need that. And I think they have long waiting lists for appointments. I've not had any recent injuries, so foot injury prevention isn't an extreme priority for me.

My main question was what would be the consequences of skate boots with little or no bend at the ball of the foot, or forwards tilt of the footbed.

It's obvious one consequence would be to usually center my weight near the middle of the blade, instead of at the ball, like the SP Teri ad mentions doing.

When I initiate a forward 3 turn, or spin, by rocking forward onto the ball and maybe toepick, I have trouble rocking back again, because of the excessive forced point imposed by my current boots. I've tried starting the turn leaning back, trying to put weight onto my heel, and leading the turn with my head and shoulder, but that isn't enough. I'm aware that I should use pressure on the edge to initiate turns, but I'm not strong enough to do it that way alone. So I definitely want less heel-lift enforced ankle point, and less forward tilted footbed. But I can't think of an easy way to test going all the way horizontal.

If I couldn't reach the toepick with a footbed that did not tilt forward, I believe I could fix that by shimming the blade mounts, to create a forward foot tilt. But if the boot actually fits snugly, and there is no bend at the ball of the foot, there won't be space inside to create such a bend.

I have one cheap way to test a horizontal footbed. My inline skates have that, and there are nearby roller rinks. (Outdoors, I was never strong enough to stop on hills, especially since the roller rinks made me remove the brakes to avoid marring the floor.) But I never got very far with them, and probably am not strong enough to do figure skating turns or spins, let alone jumps, in them. And they don't have the equivalent of toepicks. I'm inclined to think they would be so different, the test would be useless.

 

[Diana Delafield]

AFAIK (I called Dr. Meissner's office and asked), the available semi-local sports podiatrists who have a good reputation for handling skaters (Dr. Paul Meissner in Baltimore, who happens to be Kimmie's dad, and Dr. Jonathon P Contompasis in Wilmington) don't fit people for skate boots, or choose boots. They only modify boots that don't fit well. Which by now I've mostly figured out how to do for myself, though I'd rather start with boots that don't need that. And I think they have long waiting lists for appointments. I've not had any recent injuries, so foot injury prevention isn't an extreme priority for me.

My main question was what would be the consequences of skate boots with little or no bend at the ball of the foot, or forwards tilt of the footbed.

It's obvious one consequence would be to usually center my weight near the middle of the blade, instead of at the ball, like the SP Teri ad mentions doing.

When I initiate a forward 3 turn, or spin, by rocking forward onto the ball and maybe toepick, I have trouble rocking back again, because of the excessive forced point imposed by my current boots. I've tried starting the turn leaning back, trying to put weight onto my heel, and leading the turn with my head and shoulder, but that isn't enough. I'm aware that I should use pressure on the edge to initiate turns, but I'm not strong enough to do it that way alone. So I definitely want less heel-lift enforced ankle point, and less forward tilted footbed. But I can't think of an easy way to test going all the way horizontal.

If I couldn't reach the toepick with a footbed that did not tilt forward, I believe I could fix that by shimming the blade mounts, to create a forward foot tilt. But if the boot actually fits snugly, and there is no bend at the ball of the foot, there won't be space inside to create such a bend.

I have one cheap way to test a horizontal footbed. My inline skates have that, and there are nearby roller rinks. (Outdoors, I was never strong enough to stop on hills, especially since the roller rinks made me remove the brakes to avoid marring the floor.) But I never got very far with them, and probably am not strong enough to do figure skating turns or spins, let alone jumps, in them. And they don't have the equivalent of toepicks. I'm inclined to think they would be so different, the test would be useless.

I don't have such specific knowledge, sorry. I don't analyze at all what's going on in my boots while I skate, and I've never coached. I do artistic roller skating in quad skates, but never tried inline skates. I just took up roller this year, but found the quads easy to duplicate what I do on the ice. Have you tried them? Sounds as if maybe you're overthinking, which must put a crimp in your enjoyment of the sport? I just put skates on, hop onto the ice (or the roller floor at my sports club), and take off. On the other hand, maybe you really enjoy the mechanics of analyzing all the details -- whatever suits you is what works for you. Takes all kinds.

I live on the Pacific coast of Canada, and have no knowledge of sports podiatrists or sports medicine specialists in your part of the world. Can't help you there, I'm afraid. Good luck!

 

[Query]

I have quads too, with a toepick analog (I forget which brand), but I'm not sure where they are right now - haven't used them in a long while, and I suspect they have non-horizontal footbeds too. I found them really hard to use - probably a strength issue, and a difference in weighting.

Yes, I like to think things through. Partly because I am not athletic enough to be a great skater, partly because I like trying to figure things out (I was a nerd), though I'm hampered by a lack of engineering and shop training. I spent a lot of time modifying my boots, and have been sharpening my skates for over 20 years using hand tools. (It's not hard to do better than most skate techs, though that's partly because most skate techs aren't especially well trained.) I tried to figure out how to make my own blades (I started a thread here), though my lack of the right tool and metallurgy training stopped me.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Hi. Sounds like what would do you best if you are only planning on doing ice dance movement and some spinning, would be an ice dance boot (with a lower back for toe point), or a low cut freestyle skate boot. Also, I would suggest that you do see a podiatrist to get checked for pronation or supination b/c if you have that then they can make you/give you corrective heel wedges for your boots. This is what I have skated with for many many years having supination myself and it's extremely helpful.

I wanted to point out from some of things you said earlier in the thread, You never needed a very stiff boot like Edmontons for what you do. You need a mid-range stiffness boot. You shouldn't wear too stiff of a boot for ice dance movement. I don't feel like with what you have told us that you would have any need for a custom boot whatsoever. There are some stock boots that could work for your needs. Sounds from your description that you have a Greek shaped foot like I do. This means you could wear Risport, Jackson, Graf and possibly some Riedell.

 

[Query]

Hi. Sounds like what would do you best if you are only planning on doing ice dance movement and some spinning, would be an ice dance boot (with a lower back for toe point)

My limited point flexibility means a low back has no effect whatsoever.

I would suggest that you do see a podiatrist to get checked for pronation or supination

The (non-sports) podiatrist & the orthotist I saw said I have neither. And the insoles I cut myself fully compensates for the tilt of the bottom of my feet, in effect incorporating wedges.

I wanted to point out from some of things you said earlier in the thread, You never needed a very stiff boot like Edmontons for what you do.

Of course! But they were free to me.

I don't feel like with what you have told us that you would have any need for a custom boot whatsoever. There are some stock boots that could work for your needs. Sounds from your description that you have a Greek shaped foot like I do. This means you could wear Risport, Jackson, Graf and possibly some Riedell.

I've tried stock boots in all those brands.

To make do with stock boots, I would need extra-long boots so the rounding of the toe wouldn't matter (most shoes and boots pinch my big and little toes). The longwise upwards bend will therefore be in the wrong place - uncomfortable and very unhealthy. (Bones aren't designed to bend much without fracturing.)

The rest I could perhaps handle by making my own insoles, which I already do. If it is a large enough size, maybe I can even effectively move and reduce the foot bend... I didn't like doing that in the Edmonton Specials, because they were so heavy, but perhaps an intermediate boot would be less so.

Unfortunately, no store I know of stocks mens or boys figure skating boots in my size. So I can't try them on.

I called up Rainbo Sports - they are about 12 hours drive each way from here, but I assumed they would have a lot of boots in stock. Nope. And based on my measurements, they said I would need customs - specifically Jacksons.

I may visit the pro shop at Fairfax in Virginia to see what their main fitter says. They only fit Jackson and Reidell. They charge $35 just to look at one's feet, but boots are so expensive it might be worth it.

If I do need customs, only Jackson could tell me how much they can square off the toe shape, and whether they could create a horizontal footbed. I'm playing phone tag and email tag with them, but haven't got an answer yet.

In your experience, if I do turn out to need customs, does Jackson do a pretty good job on them?

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

My limited point flexibility means a low back has no effect whatsoever.



The (non-sports) podiatrist & the orthotist I saw said I have neither. And the insoles I cut myself fully compensates for the tilt of the bottom of my feet, in effect incorporating wedges.

I wanted to point out from some of things you said earlier in the thread, You never needed a very stiff boot like Edmontons for what you do.

Of course! But they were free to me.


I've tried stock boots in all those brands.

To make do with stock boots, I would need extra-long boots so the rounding of the toe wouldn't matter (most shoes and boots pinch my big and little toes). The longwise upwards bend will therefore be in the wrong place - uncomfortable and very unhealthy. (Bones aren't designed to bend much without fracturing.)

The rest I could perhaps handle by making my own insoles, which I already do. If it is a large enough size, maybe I can even effectively move and reduce the foot bend... I didn't like doing that in the Edmonton Specials, because they were so heavy, but perhaps an intermediate boot would be less so.

Unfortunately, no store I know of stocks mens or boys figure skating boots in my size. So I can't try them on.

I called up Rainbo Sports - they are about 12 hours drive each way from here, but I assumed they would have a lot of boots in stock. Nope. And based on my measurements, they said I would need customs - specifically Jacksons.

I may visit the pro shop at Fairfax in Virginia to see what their main fitter says. They only fit Jackson and Reidell. They charge $35 just to look at one's feet, but boots are so expensive it might be worth it.

If I do need customs, only Jackson could tell me how much they can square off the toe shape, and whether they could create a horizontal footbed. I'm playing phone tag and email tag with them, but haven't got an answer yet.

In your experience, if I do turn out to need customs, does Jackson do a pretty good job on them?

Yes, but if you had too stiff of a boot on in the first place then you aren't going to get the flexibility that you need.

You are going to have to call them ahead of time and ask them to order in the boots you need to try in your size. Many places don't carry alot of mens stock boots in multiple sizes.
I don't exactly trust pro shops at rinks b/c 9.9 out of 10 times they know hockey and not figure skating and will lead you very wrong with fitting and everything figure skating related.
I never had a problem with my Jackson customs when I was competing. Good luck.

 

[Query]

marlan @ Fairfax ice arena says that because my boot size differs heel-to-toe vs arch length I need a fitter with a Jackson 3d scanner, who also fits custom Riedells. Do u know any good ones within a few hundred miles of Washington DC or upstate NY?

 

[tstop4me]

marlan @ Fairfax ice arena says that because my boot size differs heel-to-toe vs arch length I need a fitter with a Jackson 3d scanner, who also fits custom Riedells. Do u know any good ones within a few hundred miles of Washington DC or upstate NY?

If I understand you correctly, you plan to use the measurements output from a Jackson scanner as input for a pair of Riedell customs. Is that correct? If so, you should check with Riedell whether that's OK with them. Boot manufacturers generally specify their own measurement equipment and procedures.

At any rate, here's my previous caveat concerning the Jackson scanner:

* Be careful with the Jackson scanner. My tech told me it gives inconsistent results. I tried it out, and it gave me results I knew were wrong. The problem is that with the Jackson scanner, you sit down and rest your feet against a slanted glass platform. So your feet are not measured in a weight-bearing position. When my feet are traced according to Jackson's instructions, they are traced twice: once when I'm sitting, and once when I'm standing straight. I suspect that one reason I got wrong results with the scanner is because I have flat feet as a result of fallen arches. So my foot shape and size are substantially different in non-weight-bearing and weight-bearing positions. Usual caveat: Your mileage may vary, as evidenced by the previous positive post.

My tech told me that the Aura scanner (I'm by no means pushing Aura boots, just discussing their scanner) gives much more accurate fittings, because they take three scans: once when you're sitting; once when you're standing straight; and once when you're standing with bent knees and ankles. From a technical perspective, that's a far superior method.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

marlan @ Fairfax ice arena says that because my boot size differs heel-to-toe vs arch length I need a fitter with a Jackson 3d scanner, who also fits custom Riedells. Do u know any good ones within a few hundred miles of Washington DC or upstate NY?

Don't do that. First of all Riedells don't fit anything like Jackson and also, Riedell isn't going to want to make you a custom that's not based on their system. This is why I said NO pro shop in rink unless it's established top figure skating fitter there, which happens but is extremely rare.

 

[Query]

No. I meant to say every skate boot company with scanners has their own, which are completely incompatible.

But the local fitter a lot of people go to told me that Jackson only does "rapid customs", which might not be good enough. So he said I might need Riedella. A long time ago a Riedell rep told me they couldn't fit people like me with wide toes, but maybe that's changed.

One way to test how well a horizontal footbed works for me would be to cut most of the heels off my Grafs, and create a custom insole that gets rid of most of the bend line. The Grafs already have a less severe bend line than my Klingbeils. Since they are a size too large means I can pad them at the top with lots of soft foam, so they won't seem quite as stiff. Someone who looked carefully would know I had padded oversized boots to make them snug, because the boot would be significantly wider than my leg, so they would conclude I didn't have "neat feet", but I'm only skating recreationally. Of course they will still be heavy. But maybe good enough for a test.

Maybe it is too hard to skate with a horizontal footbed - there may be good reasons most boots have a forward tilt and a strong bend line. I should find out before ordering such custom skates.

I know Karen Chen had trouble with her Avanta boots, and they weren't at all nice to her, in a very public way that made many people angry. But other people have liked their boots. I might contact them to find out how long their delay is too.

 

[tstop4me]

marlan @ Fairfax ice arena says that because my boot size differs heel-to-toe vs arch length I need a fitter with a Jackson 3d scanner, who also fits custom Riedells.

No. I meant to say every skate boot company with scanners has their own, which are completely incompatible.

But the local fitter a lot of people go to told me that Jackson only does "rapid customs", which might not be good enough. So he said I might need Riedella. A long time ago a Riedell rep told me they couldn't fit people like me with wide toes, but maybe that's changed.

* So, assuming you need customs (since this recommendation is coming from someone who seems a bit iffy), you don't need "a fitter with a Jackson 3d scanner, who also fits custom Riedells".

* You do need a fitter proficient in fitting Jackson customs and a fitter proficient in fitting Riedell customs (assuming you wish to pursue those options). For convenience, it would be advantageous to go to one fitter who is proficient in fitting both. But you could go to two separate fitters, if needed.

* A Jackson 3D scanner is not necessary to be fitted for Jackson customs. A fitter not outfitted with a scanner can still do it the old way (detailed measurements and tracings). As I mentioned above, if your feet changes geometry substantially between weight-bearing and non-weight-bearing conditions, you might be better off finding a fitter who does not have a scanner. My fitter told me that if a fitter has a scanner, Jackson will accept the scanner measurements only.

* Jackson has both "rapid customs" (small set of changes relative to stock) and "full custom" (large set of changes relative to stock). Rapid is cheaper and faster, if sufficient for your needs.

* You should contact Riedell customer service directly to discuss your needs. I've always found them to be highly responsive, especially compared to other manufacturers. But this is now peak figure skating season and the start of the holiday madness, so if you can wait until Jan you'll likely be better served.

 

[Mimi2789]

Avanta is running about 6 months out for their customs last I heard. If you can make do with the wait and the price I would absolutely go with Avanta. I have a pair and I can't imagine that there's a better boot out there. Like you I have a foot that is incompatible with Riedell, so those were off the table, as were Harlicks with their two year wait. Jackson just customizes their widths to your measurements, whereas Avanta is a true custom boot. They actually build the boots from a last that is made from a cast of your foot.