Corrupt Russian Dance Panel?

[blue dog]

Well that exactly is the problem, there are NO qualified judges from countires outside those top ten, even in those countries they are hard to find

Plus, I think people with a conflict of interest SHOULD NOT be on the panel. They need to stop letting Alla Piseeva from judging dance events! That woman has been on every Olympic dance panel since 1994.

 

[oxade21]

Plus, I think people with a conflict of interest SHOULD NOT be on the panel. They need to stop letting Alla Piseeva from judging dance events! That woman has been on every Olympic dance panel since 1994.

Well, she is officially Shekhovtsova not Piseeva)
And according to your statement, every judge has conflict of interest

 

[blue dog]

Well, she is officially Shekhovtsova not Piseeva)
And according to your statement, every judge has conflict of interest

Well it could be worse--it could be like rhythmic gymnastics, where the coaches are allowed to be judges as well--yikes!

I don't think other judges (the regular ones) have as much conflict of interest as the wife of the federation president.

At one time, I liked what they were doing with the new system; the technical specialists were recent "graduates" (we saw familiar names like Petrenko, Urmanov, Olavarrieta, Margaglio, et al) of competitive skating. Now we're back to these old farts who aren't as in touch with skating as those who have recently competed.

 

[oxade21]

Well it could be worse--it could be like rhythmic gymnastics, where the coaches are allowed to be judges as well--yikes!

I don't think other judges (the regular ones) have as much conflict of interest as the wife of the federation president.

At one time, I liked what they were doing with the new system; the technical specialists were recent "graduates" (we saw familiar names like Petrenko, Urmanov, Olavarrieta, Margaglio, et al) of competitive skating. Now we're back to these old farts who aren't as in touch with skating as those who have recently competed.

Actually, many of them are coaches

 

[blue dog]

Actually, many of them are coaches

I thought it was illegal for coaches to be judges.

 

[oxade21]

I thought it was illegal for coaches to be judges.

Well, Zaretskiy and Shekhovtceva are coaching and some others too.

 

[blue dog]

Well, Zaretskiy and Shekhovtceva are coaching and some others too.

I guess if they're not coaching teams at the top level...

But then again, come to think of it, perhaps the top level coaches should be judges. Besides, I hardly think that Tamara Moskvina, Tatiana Tarasova, Jana Gromova, or for that matter, Frank Carroll or Richard Callaghan would place their own skater if their skaters skated worse than somebody else. In fact, I think they would be too tough on their own skater, if they had to judge them.

 

[oxade21]

I guess if they're not coaching teams at the top level...

But then again, come to think of it, perhaps the top level coaches should be judges. Besides, I hardly think that Tamara Moskvina, Tatiana Tarasova, Jana Gromova, or for that matter, Frank Carroll or Richard Callaghan would place their own skater if their skaters skated worse than somebody else. In fact, I think they would be too tough on their own skater, if they had to judge them.

Well, you should have listened TAT tearing apart every Russian skater in her comments last night. But she was ready to burst from angst at Lambiel beatin Weir in SP. She kept repeating "I have no idea, no idea, why, why, we need to see protocols, protocols!!!" That was the funniest and cutest bias from TV commentator ever However she was gushing over Lambiel's skating too.

 

[MissIzzy]

I thought it was illegal for coaches to be judges.

Officially, I think it is. Johnny said in an interview that Petrenko couldn't coach him "because of his commitment to the ISU." However, not only is he blatantly showing a connection to him this weekend, but he was working with him earlier, checking the levels of his elements, and working with specialists these days seems to be common practice among skaters. So they are involved with specific skaters, one way or another.

 

[chuckm]

A technical specialist is permitted to give advice to a skater on whether he/she is fulfilling the level requirements for an element. US tech specialists routinely give feedback to skaters who are preparing to compete in an international event. There is no conflict of interest in that. If the TS who gave the feedback later sits on tech panel at an event where there are skaters who received advice, that is still not a conflict of interest, as long as there is no personal relationship between skater/coach and TS. If a tech specialist DID happen to have a direct personal relationship with a skater and/or coaching team at an event, the TS would have to recuse him/herself from sitting on the tech panel for that discipline.

I don't think you will see ever see Viktor Petrenko sitting as a TS or ATS on a tech panel in a Men's event where Weir is competing. That WOULD be a conflict of interest, because he is Johnny's coach's son-in-law. But he could be TS or ATS for the Ladies event at the same competition.



Tatiana Tarasova swoons over great skating, regardless of the federation of the competitor. She is just as apt to praise a US skater as a Russian one.

 

[Mathman]

You know I think that is a very good idea, but the best idea I thought was 5 and a half years ago by Tracy Wilson. Tracy Wilson's idea was to have judges hired and payed by the ISU, not be under any power from their federations, not to be judging for a certain country. If the ISU did not have a corrupt man in charge this would perhaps be a possability to pull off.

I think that idea was the driving force behind the elevation of the technical panel over the judges, when the CoP was rushed into place after the embarrassment of Salt Lake City.

The tech specialists, in principle, represent only the ISU, not their individual national federation.

 

[chuckm]

The tech specialists, in principle, represent only the ISU, not their individual national federation.

I've never seen much evidence of "principle" in the ISU. :chorus:

 

[Vicky458]

Silly me! I thought the COP was suppose to stop cheating judges. I guess Speedy will have to change the rules again! How can anyone forget this:





rom Izvestia.ru

By Andrei Mitkov
(Translated)

Irina Rodnina recently came to Russia. Little woman, great athlete. Three
times Olympic champion, whose partners are rarely remembered, only when she
is talked about. The symbol of national, maybe even World, sport. Rodnina's
tears at '80 Winter Olympic podium is one of the brightest moments in sport.
There is not one person who didn't see that historic tape. This tape is
played more number of times then the number of Rodnina's visits to Russia. We
met in Petersburg. She came to Grand Prix event with American Angela
Nikodinov who skated free program to expressive "Don't Give Up if You Love "
by Alla Pugacheva. I had no doubts that this was Rodnina's idea

Irina: I am not the program's author and not even Angela's coach. This is a
coincidence that I came to St. Petersburg with her. Unfortunately, there are
tragic circumstances. My friend Elena Cherkasskaya worried with Angela last
couple of years. Elena recently passed away from cancer. Even doctors said
she will live longer. Lena had no children and Angela became her family.
And Angela returned the love back. What happened hurt her badly... I
learned of Cherkasskaya death at competitions in Germany. I didn't know how
to tell Angela. I didn't have to tell, she guessed when me and her father
started to prepare her for the news. She got mad and started to throw
flowers and fruit from the balcony - she got them at competition and was
going to take them to Petersburg for Elena. Cherkasskaya last wish was for
me to work with Angela.
- It seemed that sadness that sound in the program is very similar to your
mood...
- It's because when Angela skates short program, I remember Lena. We were
together for 23 years. We were friends first, then we worked together. I
invited her to America and we rented a house together. It's very hard to
lose someone close, especially like that - quick and unexpected. In early
September, Lena went to Goodwill Games in Australia. She burned in six weeks.
- Aren't you bored in America? Don't you miss Russia?
- I don't live in America and I don't live in Russia. I live on the planes.
My daughter is in America, my son is in Moscow. So I am running between two
countries and two continents.
- Is is hard?
- Of course. What do I have to do? I don't live in America, I work there.
Because of certain circumstances, I stayed more than I planned for. I want to
have my own business in Moscow, but I don't want to start coaching and depend
on Russian skating federation.
- Why?
- Long ago, I decided to allow myself not do it. I am not a person who will
wait to be shown to the door for the second time. Do you understand?
- The story that you won't talk about probably happened at Soviet times?
- The same people work in Russian federation. I don't want to return to
communal apartment.
- Do you mean president Valentin Piseev?
- We can talk a lot about it. I don't know one person who loves Piseev. I
even doubt his wife's feelings. I can't take away his qualities. If a
person heads figure skating for decades, it means he has certain professional
qualities and willpower... Piseev says that he always acted in the state's
interest. But phenomenal results were reached because of coaches and
athletes. Tell me, what good does Piseev do?
- He probably lobbies for Russian interests in ISU?
- What can he lobbies - he can't say anything in English except "Two beers,
please". And then, what do you mean - lobbies?
- Well, let's say he takes some action so judges won't rob Russian skaters
at international competitions and maybe even help them.
- I am afraid to hear that. The president accumulates everything bad there
is in Russian skating.
- But that happens.
- Yes, unfortunately. Many do it, even those who don't want to do it,
because they have to. After Nagano Olympics Tatiana Anatolievna Tarasova
came to our town to choreograph an exhibition number for Klimova/Ponomarenko.
She came to Frank Carrol who coached Michelle Kwan then and sincerely told
him, "Why didn't you talk to us? You would've given a bottle of vodka and
everything would've been fine. Russian judge doesn't care which American,
Kwan or Lipinski, to put first!" For those who doesn't remember, in Nagano,
Kwan lost to Lipinski with one vote. See how simple it is: a bottle of vodka
to Russian judge, and Kwan is Olympic champion. Frank couldn't say anything
to that cynicism. He didn't understand: is it really that because of bottle
of vodka his (or other coach's job) will not bring results? That's why I am
against this reality, I against laughing at the joke, "The ice dance judges
were honest - just like they agreed before." This is dirty. This exists and
I don't want to touch it. Maybe that's why I am three times Olympic champion.
- There is no underground movement in American skating, no special state
interests, no wishes of the management?
- That's the thing, there isn't. US Sport officers don't work on planning
and perspectives. They treat everyone the same - the mentors of the
champions and the beginners-coaches. What happens tomorrow will happen only
tomorrow. We, in Russia, want to make our tomorrow today. Our parents lived
for bright tomorrow. We were brought up with the hope for better future.
This generation, thanks God, lives for today, at least, it seems to me that
it does. Of course, you can plan results but you can't plan the entire life
of every person?
- To plan and to set goals - isn't that the same?
- The federation can't set goals, define and decide. The federation is the
institution that organizes. Because we don't understand that difference, we
lost great hockey player, Valery Kharlamov, at his time. He was named the
best player at World championship, and Mr. Tikhonov, USSR head coach decided
that the young ones should be tried out at the next competition. If I am the
best today, why I should be substituted?
- What can be more subjective then sport?
- Can't you see who is better? Slutskaya fells several times at average
little competition - and she is placed first. Why?
- You probably remember the saying that first, you work for your name, and
then your name works for you.
- This is bad saying.
- You never were in that situation?
- Once, at 1976 Olympic trials. I could never let myself to depend on others.
I feel sorry that I have to depend on circumstances.
- When did you get that strive to independence and fairness?
- I think I always had it. Maybe not, I got it later. Soon after I started
to compete, I learned my real price. It turned out to be very high.
- Didn't you have to adjust?
- If you love yourself, not that you are in love with yourself, if you have
self-esteem - then the moment comes when you start to fight. Most important
is to be brave enough to stay the ground and to defend your opinion because
you are going to get smacked in the head anyway.
- There are not that many strong people like that...
- But of course - it's easier to keep quiet and them spit behind the back. I
remember the guided tour to the Golden rooms in Leningrad. The first room
had an exhibition of ancient gold, the second room had the gold of Russian
czars and emperors - plates, crowns... And the windmill - gold with diamonds.
The windmill only had three wings. I asked where was the fourth. And the
tour guide seriously answers that it was blown away in revolutionary storms.
I imagined how in 1917 a soldier, a sailor or a factory worker intruded the
Winter palace and broke the windmill to keep a part as a souvenir. This
defines us completely - rude and barbarous. In 1976, we came to the
Leningrad with Champions tours after Olympics. At exhibitions, all
foreigners got fur hats as a gift, and we got regular "babushkas". You
should've seen what happen when someone offered to come out for the final bow
wearing fur hats out of respect to organizers. I said, "We will wear
babushkas". The KGB agent was chasing me, "Ira, take it off, I order you!"
- Did you change anything?
- At some moment I realized that everything that I do doesn't bring anything.
Everyone was moaning because of Piseev. The situation came up when we
decided to make him leave. Not I did, we did. We talked to one person so he
will take over presidential functions. At the last moment, he declined, and
the rest followed him, even Tatiana Anatolievna Tarasova who dreamed the most
to get rid of Piseev. She said Piseev doesn't bother her. Then I decided that
I can't go to a battle with these people. When later Tarasova organized the
letters against Piseev and asked me to signed I declined. I decided it's
better to stay a lonely shark.
It's heard to talk to these people, it's impossible to deal with them. They
are not loyal. I am watching for 30 years how Tarasova and Chaikovskaya
switch from kissing to fighting. This probably happens everywhere - in big
politics, in big business, in big sport too. I was an idealist before. Now
I take people the way they are. I am not going to change them. And I am not
going to change myself. It's wrong to say that I am strong. I have my
values and I am independent. Maybe I have to pay more for the independence.
- Aren't you tired to fight all these years?
- I am not fighting anymore. I left because I was tired of fighting. My
best friend often says:" There are two categories of our people: one lives,
another constantly prepares to live but they fight in the meantime". In
America, people live. I can't say that they have easy lives. They work a
lot. Another thing is that you have to be a complete idiot not to make
enough money in America to lead a normal life.
- Anyway, you said that you wanted to come back to Russia. You even started
a construction of Irina Rodnina's Ice House in Moscow.
- That's a painful topic. Late Zhuk taught me: first you do, than you tell.
It happened the other way here. We talked a lot but didn't do anything.
Everything is going on for so long...
- But it's going?
- Of course. We just changed the decorations. Now it's episode two - I just
wish it doesn't turn into soap opera. We turned away the first project.
That Home was going to be built by Moscow government: they gave us the lot,
did the project, the technical background. Since we would have to run it, we
gave the technical specs to Germans for expert opinion. The wrote up
everything and we learned that this project isn't profitable. We wouldn't
have profit for many years, and we didn't want to got beg all the time. As a
result we and Yuri Mikhailovich Luzhkov backed off that project. It's just
bad that government's money were spent and didn't get any results.
Fortunately, I didn't take any part in that spending.
Now we are getting a new lot that belongs to the federal - near Poklonnaya
mountain. New lot, new project, new spending. Now it will be financed not by
city, but by several organizations and several people, including me.
- Do you often recall your years in sport - the competitions, the victories?
- No, and there are reasons. When I stopped competing I decided that door
should be closed and the key to that door should be lost. It's hard to start
a new life if you are constantly returning to the past even if the past was
great. Everything that happened will still be with me. And one more moment...
After one competition, we were talking in the locker room, blah-blah-blah,
blah-blah-blah. And suddenly Mila Belousova says, "Remember, at Nationals in
Sverdlovsk...", and it became completely quiet. It was good that Tatiana
Anatolievna Tarasova walked it and kept the conversation. I remembered that
story very well. Before you start a story, with "Remember...", you have to
turn around and see if there are people that could've remembered. And
really, the time came when I was surrounded by children only. I was very
annoyed: I have to prepare to the competition, and they are jumping around
and chatting...
- You didn't lose a competition in 12 years. Does this make you fell warm?
- Of course. Partners, coaches, situation - it all changed but I still was
on the top of the podium. I am happy when it comes to that. Maybe, I talk
on a lot of topics calmly because I am very satisfied. I remember Igor
Bobrin, when I wanted to cheer him up after one ugly meeting, said angrily,
"It's easy for you, the champions, to say." I said, "You try to be in that
skin." It only seems that all the champions do is get benefits.
- When you watch competitions, do you ever want to applaud someone?
- Why want to? If I want to - I always applaud. Do you think that I am not
able to express simple human feelings, that I should applaud only from my
podium? This is silly! This is stupid!
- In America, in your center you work with ...
- Everyone. In America, I work with everyone.
- So, it's not on professional level?
- This level is the most professional. Anyone can pay and train with
Rodnina. This is big skill: to work with people of different levels and
ages. The real art is working with children. This is so interesting! There
won't be 30 super talents in one group, and you have to teach all of them
with love and patience. The students are coming to me from all over the
World - why should I turn my back to someone?
- Communication skills - is that from America too? I am surprised that you
smile to both Alexei Mishin and Tatiana Tarasova who naturally hate each
other.
- I can't stand that. I know Tatiana Anatolievna well, she is my coach, I
left Zhuk for her at my time... But I don't want and won't depend on her
mood, on her head - will she say hello, won't she say hello to me. Yes, we
are educated people. We can recite entire works of Pushkin, we quote Homer.
We are very educated but not civilized. We can't communicate. Foreign
coaches already guess: at that competition will Tarasova fight with Dubova or
Mishin with Chaikovskaya?
- How funny!
- Funny, yes. It's a shame.


------
Sasha


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Sat Dec 15, 2001 5:01 am


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[Mathman]

After Nagano Olympics Tatiana Anatolievna Tarasova came to our town to choreograph an exhibition number for Klimova/Ponomarenko. She came to Frank Carrol who coached Michelle Kwan then and sincerely told him, "Why didn't you talk to us? You would've given a bottle of vodka and everything would've been fine. Russian judge doesn't care which American, Kwan or Lipinski, to put first!"

- There is no underground movement in American skating, no special state
interests, no wishes of the management?

- That's the thing, there isn't. US Sport officers don't work on planning
and perspectives...

Sonia Bianchetti makes the same point very forcefully in her expose' Cracked Ice -- that the poor naive Americans are just babes in the woods when it comes to playing the figure skating game.

Everyone else knows what the score is -- you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.

 

[oxade21]

Well, look who is talking!!! Rodnina should just shut up with her Putin love. I mean the woman is literally government official and bearacrat nowadays and just as corrupt as Pissev. Not that Pissev is angel but to be fair, this piece was writen before the elections which she lost.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Tatiana Tarasova swoons over great skating, regardless of the federation of the competitor. She is just as apt to praise a US skater as a Russian one.

She did mention once that John Curry was the best of all male skaters, but I think she said that before the 2002 Olys.

Interesting she thought Irina should have won in that Olys. She didn't realize that no one thought Sarah would win . I don't think the judges thought Sarah should win. The Russians had the votes. What happened that a least expected would win?

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Interesting she thought Irina should have won in that Olys. She didn't realize that no one thought Sarah would win . I don't think the judges thought Sarah should win. The Russians had the votes. What happened that a least expected would win?

No, the Russians didn't have the votes. That's why Irina didn't win.

There were three Eastern European judges, plus Denmark, to make up the Irina bloc. All of these four placed Irina first. They did all they could for their skater by giving Sarah 4th, 3rd, 4th and 2nd.

But the other five (the so-called Kwan judges) all voted for Sarah when Michelle faltered, so Sarah won, five to four.

PS. The Russian federation was so beside itself that they filed a petition to have a second gold medal awarded in ladies, like it was in pairs. But the petition was rejected by the ISU.

 

[chuckm]

No, the Russians didn't have the votes. That's why Irina didn't win.

There were three Eastern European judges, plus Denmark, to make up the Irina bloc. All of these four placed Irina first. They did all they could for their skater by giving Sarah 4th, 3rd, 4th and 2nd.

But the other five (the so-called Kwan judges) all voted for Sarah when Michelle faltered, so Sarah won, five to four.

PS. The Russian federation was so beside itself that they filed a petition to have a second gold medal awarded in ladies, like it was in pairs. But the petition was rejected by the ISU.

I think the Russians were shocked that the German judge (Sissy Krick) and the Finnish judge (Pekka Leskinen) gave Sarah first place ordinals. They would have expected these judges to go for either Kwan or Slutskaya.

Also note that the BLR judge was Irina Absaliamova, who now judges for Armenia, and the RUS judge was Tatiana Danilenko, who had been punished for cheating in the past.

 

[blue dog]

RUS judge was Tatiana Danilenko, who had been punished for cheating in the past.

That old woman? Didn't she have Sarah Hughes down in 10th on her cards after the short?

I don't know if it was her, or Walburga Grim, but one of those two judges had been hinted at to "retire" because their eyesight had gotten quite bad in recent years.

 

[chuckm]

Danilenko is still judging, and in fact is an ISU judge, eligible to sit on ISU Championship panels.