- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Silly, especially after they had ganged up on Kerrigan to lose to Miss Two Foot Landings.
Joe
Corrupt Russian Dance Panel?
- Thread starter netnuts
- Start date
Joe
After looking at DomShabs total score (205+ points) at CoR, I think it is inevitable that they are the preordained World Champions through Vancouver 2010 and maybe even through 2014 (they will be only 29/32 then).
This year at Worlds there will be plenty of help on the judging panels for Ice Dance.
In the CD and OD, the pro-Russian AZE, LTU and UZB judges will ensure they float atop the standings. ARM, RUS and EST are already assured for the FD, and they could be joined by one or more of AZE, LTU, UZB if they make the random selection for the FD panel.
So the potential exists for SIX pro-Russian judges (out of 12) on the FD panel. Can DomShabs pass the 105 score for the FD?
Considering the judging panels, it would be no surprise to see Khokhlova / Novitski on the podium as well.
That leaves just one place for the rest of the competitors.
This year at Worlds there will be plenty of help on the judging panels for Ice Dance.
In the CD and OD, the pro-Russian AZE, LTU and UZB judges will ensure they float atop the standings. ARM, RUS and EST are already assured for the FD, and they could be joined by one or more of AZE, LTU, UZB if they make the random selection for the FD panel.
So the potential exists for SIX pro-Russian judges (out of 12) on the FD panel. Can DomShabs pass the 105 score for the FD?
Considering the judging panels, it would be no surprise to see Khokhlova / Novitski on the podium as well.
That leaves just one place for the rest of the competitors.
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2006
It makes me laugh my socks off to read all the American posters complaining about "Eastern bloc konspiracies". Domnina/Shabalin will beat Belbin/Agosto because they're better, not for any other reason.
Judging by the posts on this thread, it seems American skating fans are very bad losers.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
It makes me laugh my socks off to read all the American posters complaining about "Eastern bloc konspiracies". Domnina/Shabalin will beat Belbin/Agosto because they're better, not for any other reason.
Judging by the posts on this thread, it seems American skating fans are very bad losers.
I am a non American but if you think Domnina/Shabalin are that great why dont you compare their Masquerade Waltz to one of the past Russian great dance teams Krylova Ovsiannikov (2 time World Champions in 98, 99; 2 time World silver medalists in 96, 98; Olympic silver medalists in 1998). Here you go:
Krylova/Ovsiannikov: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbeK1DIPw-o
Domnina/Shabalin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izbGu4zSc5k
While Anjelika and Oleg made the music come to life and owned that music, Oksana and Maxim dont come even close to achieving this. While Anjelika and Oleg fly across the ice with fabulous speed and ice coverage, Oksana and Maxim look to be in a crawl by comparision. While Anjelika and Oleg create a mood and captivate the audience, Oksana and Maxim fall well short of this.
Watch those 2 performances back to back and tell me Oksana and Maxim are not shown up big time with both teams skating to that same music.
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If Domnina/Shabalin and Khokhlova/Novitski are so superior to all the other dance teams, then why does Russia "lend" their judges to former SSRs, and why does the ISU Technical Committee (headed by a Russian) feel the need to pack the Ice Dance Panels with so many "loaned" judges?
If DomShabs and Khok/Nov are so indisputably superior to all other teams, then there would be no NEED to stack the deck so heavily to Russia's advantage.
It's interesting that ITA, with two excellent teams (9th and 13th at 07 Worlds), has no representation on the Ice Dance panel at all, while every one of these lower-ranked federations were chosen: AZE (16th), EST (19th), CHN (21st), ARM (22nd), LTU (23rd), UZB (24th) and AUT (25th, FNR).
If DomShabs and Khok/Nov are so indisputably superior to all other teams, then there would be no NEED to stack the deck so heavily to Russia's advantage.
It's interesting that ITA, with two excellent teams (9th and 13th at 07 Worlds), has no representation on the Ice Dance panel at all, while every one of these lower-ranked federations were chosen: AZE (16th), EST (19th), CHN (21st), ARM (22nd), LTU (23rd), UZB (24th) and AUT (25th, FNR).
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- Joined
- Jan 1, 2006
I agree that Krylova/Ovsiannikov's performance was better. K/O are my favorite ice-dance couple of all time.
But that wasn't what I was arguing about. Domnina/Shabalin are far superior to the American ice-dancers and it makes me laugh that so many people here can't handle this.
Each to his own taste. I find DomShab's head-flinging and bombastic style very distracting and inappropriate to this Waltz. And they are so SLOW compared to B/A and D/W.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I'm an American and I have very good feelings for Khoklova and Novitski, and I'm all for Carron and Jost; and Cappelini and LaNotte. Big on my List is Virtue and Moir. - none of those teams are American.
It makes me laugh my socks off to read all the American posters complaining about "Eastern bloc konspiracies". Domnina/Shabalin will beat Belbin/Agosto because they're better, not for any other reason.
Judging by the posts on this thread, it seems American skating fans are very bad losers.
Sorry, but Domnina and Shabalin do not fit in with my good feelings.
How do you rationalize that?
Joe
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
Tracy Wilson once said that a favorite saying in ice dancing is "speed is king". Not for Domnina/Shabalin.
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2006
No one's bitter about anything. They haven't beaten the top-ranked American team this year. They didn't beat the top-ranked American team at the last world championships. In fact, Canada II was 10 points from beating them--had it not been for the fact that D/S are such excellent compulsory dancers. Perhaps if the competition was - best compulsory dancers, arguably they could win, but that's why there are three phases to the competition. Their CD is excellent, their OD is great, but their waltz with a wedding cake FD leaves a lot to be desired.
Well, you just confirmed that D/S are indeed better skaters. The quality of the skating is usually can be seen more in CD and OD. FD does not require you to show as much your skills as in the other two, where you can do whatever the hell you want to hide those imperfections. Liking a particular style, music, costumes and program does not automatically mean that D/S are not better skaters, in fact that's the problem we have that even judges are human and they have their preferences that often do not favor the better skaters.Latest example, last year's worlds. If skated cleanly without major mistakes all top 6 teams this year, I think Dom/Shabs and V/M would be on the top as they are the best skilled skaters out there. And I do not even like Domnina.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Interesting that your assumption is that it is Belbin/Agosto that EVERY American on this board thinks will be screwed by a pro-Russian panel.
Well, you have to look at the protocols to understand that. Every single top pair get higher then usual score in their home country, especially when there is no close competition, nobody cares about the scores. The judges do not seat and think , wait B/A had this at SA in no way I can give this score here. They have their sheets that they just check and tech specialist just adds the levels up or down. Giving 8s may have been too excessive but that in no way inidicates that they are going to get the same score at Worlds. In fact, last week it has been proved, that one mistake and the judges are not going to be merciful even though they are willing to be generous. Before Navka left, everyone around here were talking about how great those skaters are, just shows how fickle we are.
BTW, their FD this week WAS indeed absolutely deserving the scores it got.
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2006
I'm not saying they're better or worse skaters--I'm merely saying they haven't beaten the top American team yet.
Not to mention, there is always someone better. It just depends on how you define better. You may think that the FD isn't the best indicator of who is best, and another person may think that way. Unfortunately, your description of an FD is exactly what D/S have done--attempt to hide their imperfections through flailing and lifts. The top four teams last year clearly demonstrated why they are in the top four because not only did they have lifts like D/S but actually SKATED in the FD. D/S, if they are such good skaters should SKATE in the FD instead of flail and lift.
Based on your criteria for who is better, yes, they win the CD, but they lose the OD to a team like B/A who are great in the OD, and they lose the FD to V/M and the French D/S who actually skate in the FD.
Well, if flail and lift, the only things you see in Dom/Shabs, you have to check your eyes or buy a reading glasses to read the actual protocols of what they are doing in their FD. There goes any credibility of your comments or opinion. Liking the program or the skaters is one thing but dismiss totally what they are actually doing is another.
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2006
You're right--they don't just flail and lift. I watched their FD once more, just watching their feet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izbGu4zSc5k
And I realized one thing--they remind me of another champion who was very proficient in the compulsory figures:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LRuO8QP-sNI
While D/S are technically superior to that other team, what that other team does is similar to what D/S do now--Oksana Domnina does the harder skating. If you are so inclined to just watch their feet, and ignore the upper body, Oksana does most of the turns and edge work. For the most part, he does a lot of support work.
They do something smart during their footwork section and their synchronized twizzles--because dancers are closer in height than pairs, it is easier to hide the other partner's shortcomings by simply placing them on the other side of the rink, where the judge can miss what they're doing. This is what this team does. On both passes, Oksana is closer to the judges. He is obscured by Oksana during these moments, and in some instances, their unison isn't as spot-on as other teams because he actually skates slower than her. Not to mention, their positions aren't as perfect as a technically proficient pair should be--her free leg during twizzles and turns is considerably higher than his. Their holds are also easier than some other teams (certainly easier than their teammates, Khoklova/Novitski).
One thing he has above her is that he isn't as wooden in their presentation. In fact, he has a strange appeal when he skates. I almost want to watch him more, even though she has more technical difficulty on her feet than he does. And, of course, from about 3:52 on the video until 4:00 their unison suffers.
What they do have are great accent lifts. I just wish they'd take out the excessive arm flailing. It does nothing to hide their shortcomings, nor does it add to the expression of the music.
So, before accusing me of not properly watching this program, I suggest you watch it once more, but watch only their feet and turn off the music if you can.
On another note, I wonder what story they are trying to portray with this dance. It seems like it's Oksana's first ball, and she is asked to dance by an old uncle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izbGu4zSc5k
And I realized one thing--they remind me of another champion who was very proficient in the compulsory figures:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LRuO8QP-sNI
While D/S are technically superior to that other team, what that other team does is similar to what D/S do now--Oksana Domnina does the harder skating. If you are so inclined to just watch their feet, and ignore the upper body, Oksana does most of the turns and edge work. For the most part, he does a lot of support work.
They do something smart during their footwork section and their synchronized twizzles--because dancers are closer in height than pairs, it is easier to hide the other partner's shortcomings by simply placing them on the other side of the rink, where the judge can miss what they're doing. This is what this team does. On both passes, Oksana is closer to the judges. He is obscured by Oksana during these moments, and in some instances, their unison isn't as spot-on as other teams because he actually skates slower than her. Not to mention, their positions aren't as perfect as a technically proficient pair should be--her free leg during twizzles and turns is considerably higher than his. Their holds are also easier than some other teams (certainly easier than their teammates, Khoklova/Novitski).
One thing he has above her is that he isn't as wooden in their presentation. In fact, he has a strange appeal when he skates. I almost want to watch him more, even though she has more technical difficulty on her feet than he does. And, of course, from about 3:52 on the video until 4:00 their unison suffers.
What they do have are great accent lifts. I just wish they'd take out the excessive arm flailing. It does nothing to hide their shortcomings, nor does it add to the expression of the music.
So, before accusing me of not properly watching this program, I suggest you watch it once more, but watch only their feet and turn off the music if you can.
On another note, I wonder what story they are trying to portray with this dance. It seems like it's Oksana's first ball, and she is asked to dance by an old uncle.
Well, this is different post, before you said that all they do is flail and lift
if you want to make a real valid comaprisons, you have to look at current skaters competing, not the dusted cases. I would make similar cases for B/A and Del/Shoes, that you just made for Dom/Shabs and F/M. The only current skater, that have better edges and blade technique are V/M, IMO.
As per the dance itself, it has been explained million times, I am not going to do it again. There is a very good poster and much more professional and elaborate discussion of this season's dances over at fsuniverse. One of the dance skaters member of the board does exceptional analysis of every program this year.
I think blue dog has done a very excellent analysis of DomShab's strengths and weaknesses---and there are very definite weaknesses.
Their arm flailing is indeed excessive, but so is the head flailing. They did the same thing in their FD last year, but this year it is even worse and less suited to the type of dance.
The weakness in his skating is what caused the error at CoC, I think. He got out of sync with her in the spin, and since they were in a close hold, she got off balance and to keep her from stumbling he lifted her slightly---which counted as a lift and caused their last lift not to count towards their score.
Every once in awhile they do have a fall (such as in the OD at last year's CoR) and it is usually his fault because he can't quite keep up. And his lesser skating skills force them to skate more slowly than other top teams.
Their arm flailing is indeed excessive, but so is the head flailing. They did the same thing in their FD last year, but this year it is even worse and less suited to the type of dance.
The weakness in his skating is what caused the error at CoC, I think. He got out of sync with her in the spin, and since they were in a close hold, she got off balance and to keep her from stumbling he lifted her slightly---which counted as a lift and caused their last lift not to count towards their score.
Every once in awhile they do have a fall (such as in the OD at last year's CoR) and it is usually his fault because he can't quite keep up. And his lesser skating skills force them to skate more slowly than other top teams.
