Creative+Difficult Entries/Exits 2017-18

[lappo]

I LOVE the entry into the lift in M/C short program (from 1:36): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiGFiX2XIbw
To be honest, I loved all of their programs, including exhibitions, in these two years.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I remember being intrigued by Miner's lutz entry at Skate America yesterday... not to mention it was a gorgeous lutz in general. Can't find an unblocked link though.

 

[Ylyzybyth]

I love those walley jumps!

 

[russianfan]

that cantilever though

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Dasha also has a nice counter entrance into an axel :dance2:

https://youtu.be/Hyllsr8YBHU?t=4m50s

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

In general, yes, it is more difficult to do transitions and steps going into a jump. It takes really solid technique to be able to do a jump from a variety of setups.

What I don't understand is, isn't the "creativity" criterion not objective, in the sense that it assumes some attribution to the creator and has a connotation of novelty? Suppose a skater does a new "creative" entrance one season and gets rewarded for it, and then other skaters copy it the next season, will the copycats be rewarded for a creative entrance? If you hadn't seen the previous season, how would you know who's the copycat and who's the originator? Or, what if the original skater uses his/her same "creative" entrance over the next several seasons, will it still be deemed creative?

I don't think it's about creating new entrances as much as using them in creative ways. Watch Sasha's entrance to see what I mean.

https://youtu.be/RzPudHrgCSE?t=1m56s

Even the crossovers time up well with a musical build but the cantilever and steps match the musical phrasing perfectly while also showcasing her skill. I think it's better to look at it as a creative use of an entry instead. Maybe I'm wrong here.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Here is another cool entry and exit to look for in the FS coming up in the ladies JGPF. Nastya does sn Ina Bauer into a 3loop and exits with her as behind her back. We always called it the “sailor man” dive when you’d jump into the pool this way.

After the Ina Bauer is that a Mohawk entry into the loop?

https://youtu.be/yQduWTimpDA?t=2m32s


We need some more contributors to point out other skaters and disciplines.

 

[gkelly]

After the Ina Bauer is that a Mohawk entry into the loop?

https://youtu.be/yQduWTimpDA?t=2m32s

Yeah, I would call that an outside mohawk even though she's pretty much on a flat on that left blade before going into the turn.

We need some more contributors to point out other skaters and disciplines.

I'll keep an eye out.

 

[russianfan]

i posted it before when she was performing it on a training, but now it's in her EX
https://youtu.be/NqwMsy8FgrA?t=122

 

[cl2]

Here is another cool entry and exit to look for in the FS coming up in the ladies JGPF. Nastya does sn Ina Bauer into a 3loop and exits with her as behind her back. We always called it the “sailor man” dive when you’d jump into the pool this way.

After the Ina Bauer is that a Mohawk entry into the loop?

https://youtu.be/yQduWTimpDA?t=2m32s


We need some more contributors to point out other skaters and disciplines.

Haven't been paying attention to entries/exits when watching other skaters or disciplines, but a sure fire way to find a minefield of creative and difficult entries/exits is, basically, just go watch any of Eteri's students!

Here are some to add to the list.

Kostornaia:
https://youtu.be/uMw4rLO7sD8?t=20s (CW walley into a spin)
https://youtu.be/-QFV79090LI?t=2m19s (RI chocktaw, LBO counter (that looks slightly cheated into a LBI 3-turn, TBH) into 3-turn entry for 3F)
https://youtu.be/-QFV79090LI?t=2m39s (same steps as previous, but LBO counter looks cleaner, or maybe it's the camera angle)

Trusova:
https://youtu.be/RzPudHrgCSE?t=2m33s (split falling leaf after the 2A. Best thing about it was, she was a split second ahead of the music, and yet she held the landing with such impeccable control to time her split falling leaf perfectly to the music highlight.)

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

https://youtu.be/-QFV79090LI?t=2m19s (RI chocktaw, LBO counter (that looks slightly cheated into a LBI 3-turn, TBH) into 3-turn entry for 3F)
https://youtu.be/-QFV79090LI?t=2m39s (same steps as previous, but LBO counter looks cleaner, or maybe it's the camera angle)

LOVE this entry! Anyone who's tried the Rhumba knows a forward inside-backwards outside choctaw is difficult, but to then go from the outside edge straight into a counter is super difficult to maintain speed/control.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

LOVE this entry! Anyone who's tried the Rhumba knows a forward inside-backwards outside choctaw is difficult, but to then go from the outside edge straight into a counter is super difficult to maintain speed/control.

People who have never put on a pair of skates have no idea how difficult these move are but learning them and learning to use them to control speed as you've pointed is a whole different level of skating. I think the evolution of Russian ladies skating is working toward maximizing the difficulty of connecting steps and transitions but as these girls try to distinguish themselves from one another we are going to see the quality continue to improve. Eteri's girls are really using very difficult skating skills to execute inasne transitions and were starting to see more interpretation while doing it.

I don't think the average fan can identify and relate to the difficulty in doing THIS let alone into a triple jump. It's even harder to discern what it is worth in the scheme of things.

 

[moriel]

People who have never put on a pair of skates have no idea how difficult these move are but learning them and learning to use them to control speed are two different things. I think the evolution of Russian ladies skating is working toward maximizing the difficulty of connecting steps and transitions but as these girls try to distinguish themselves from one another we are going to see the quality continue to improve. Eteri's girls are really using very difficult skating skills to execute inasne transitions and were starting to see more interpretation while doing it.

I don't think the average fan can identify and relate to the difficulty in doing THIS let alone into a triple jump. It's even harder to discern what it is worth in the scheme of things.

I wonder if its worth maybe making a video collection, identifying the entries and exists, and maybe ranking by difficulty

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

People who have never put on a pair of skates have no idea how difficult these move are but learning them and learning to use them to control speed as you've pointed is a whole different level of skating. I think the evolution of Russian ladies skating is working toward maximizing the difficulty of connecting steps and transitions but as these girls try to distinguish themselves from one another we are going to see the quality continue to improve. Eteri's girls are really using very difficult skating skills to execute inasne transitions and were starting to see more interpretation while doing it.

I don't think the average fan can identify and relate to the difficulty in doing THIS let alone into a triple jump. It's even harder to discern what it is worth in the scheme of things.

As much as Eteri gets flack for busying her skaters' programs with transitions, her skaters (and the Russian skaters) are leading the way for difficult jump entries as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sure they play a version of "H.O.R.S.E." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variations_of_basketball#H-O-R-S-E) in practice, trying to incorporate a crazy series of transitions into a triple jump and try to see if they can out do each other. Even in exhibitions you see them try to mimic crazy jump transitions. It's fun to watch and really shows how incredible they are... they don't worry about executing the jump, so much that they come up with creative ways to make a difficult jump that much more difficult.

 

[Shayuki]

All the focus in this thread seems to be on entries and of course, I like a good entry as much as anyone. But aesthetically, I find a BO counter exit straight from a jump to be very beautiful. I actually went through all the JGP final programs by the Eteri students looking for one but didn't see a single counter exit. Why is that? Surely it's worth more in transitions than just planting your other foot right away, right? All I could find were a couple of 3-turn exits with poor flow.

Only one example comes to mind from this season which is here being a counter exit on a 1Lz by a 6yo Russian skater.

 

[rikaquegira]

https://youtu.be/A_iKpI5ouD8?t=3m1s

 

[russianfan]

https://youtu.be/F8cP5dxgzc8?t=148 love the exit from 3F

 

[Basho]

Re: Alexandra.

My eyes got wider and wider the more I watched. I then viewed along program where she is handling Vivaldi just fine. If this is the future, American ladies might as well as hang up there skates and go home. Can we kidnap a Russian coach and hold her over here?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't think the average fan can identify and relate to the difficulty in doing THIS let alone into a triple jump. It's even harder to discern what it is worth in the scheme of things.

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable (creative, interesting, original for jump preceded by steps/movements of the Short Program) steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element

The 2nd GOE bullet is always the trickiest to determine. I suppose this means that in the SP, the solo jump can have average preceding steps to avoid deduction but it won't get a GOE bullet if it's not creative/interesting/original. In the FS I guess it's less important that the steps before are creative/interesting/original as long as it's clear movements prior to the element (even easy ones like crosscuts/progressives/chasses?)

In the context of Kostornaia's lutz entry THAT to me is creative/interesting/original series of movment which lend themselves to a creative/difficult entry, and thus covers 2 GOE bullets. But I've seen recap videos of many skaters where it seems knocking off bullets 1 and 2 is essentially hand-in-hand, the same way every element "matches the musical structure" if it's your fave skater.

You said it - Eteri's kids are distinguishing themselves and getting the GOE to boot by coming up with crazy ways in and out of these jumps. Other skaters really need to take notice because unless a skater can do a 3A, it's stuff like this that will separate the top notch skates from the very best skates.

 

[gkelly]

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable (creative, interesting, original for jump preceded by steps/movements of the Short Program) steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element

The 2nd GOE bullet is always the trickiest to determine. I suppose this means that in the SP, the solo jump can have average preceding steps to avoid deduction but it won't get a GOE bullet if it's not creative/interesting/original. In the FS I guess it's less important that the steps before are creative/interesting/original as long as it's clear movements prior to the element (even easy ones like crosscuts/progressives/chasses?)

It says "clear recognizable steps/free skating movements."

I don't think crosscuts would count as steps or free skating movements. Progressives and chasses are steps, but I don't know that many judges would give credit for doing those simple steps to gain speed and then the normal simple three turn or mohawk to get onto the takeoff edge.

Now if a skater did progressives or chasses directly into jump, that would be unexpected, so it could certainly earn bullet point 1).