Dancing With The Stars
- Thread starter Jhar55
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Challenge accepted.
Send Miss Ali right over, and I'll tell her what I think.
She might even appreciate hearing the truth, and no I won't be rude, but constructive and upfront.
Seanibu - I am not aware of calling any ladies 'fat' , I was referring to Mr. N'Sync, whatever his name is, and yes, you can send him over, too.
Btw, everybody I've talked to at the rink who has seen the show agrees with me.
Some of them had much less nice things to say than I did.......
Send Miss Ali right over, and I'll tell her what I think.
She might even appreciate hearing the truth, and no I won't be rude, but constructive and upfront.
Seanibu - I am not aware of calling any ladies 'fat' , I was referring to Mr. N'Sync, whatever his name is, and yes, you can send him over, too.
Btw, everybody I've talked to at the rink who has seen the show agrees with me.
Some of them had much less nice things to say than I did.......
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
See, that is not the point, right or wrong, whatever. It is an opinion no matter how many of the rink palls you have agree. One of my guy friends thinks the same but he knows it is just an opinion / weight preference and understands VOICING that opinion in a "forum" where he would be unaware of who was around to hear, possibly be hurting their feelings, is careless and rude. Most importantly not necessary, particularly when you can phrase things that don't "stab" with comments and show the ability to voice you opinion and be heard rather than convey negativity.
You weren't? Hunh, what does this mean?
Reads different then I guess you meant it to. OOps.
how about,
"She has such a low voice, I was surprised it was her talking. I don't think she is graceful and her dress could be chosen for her figure."
PC, I know we all probably get sick of having to be PC all the time and watch what we say, but it is a shared planet and "snide comments" are not going to help anything but rase animosity. It is easy to voice without being snide about it.
I say for a lady with her build, she is doing a fantastic job! I like her attitude and the way she confidently portrays herself. To me she looks pretty out there and I think she feels pretty too.:agree:
And yes you did also needlessly remark rudely about him also. At least your hurtful and derogatory comments are not gender bias. Mine of it being unnecessary were as well.
I will agree with the - "hidden by the other gutter comments" - nice comment you had about Kym. She is very attractive lady. Looked
in that 70s outfit. Y'wsa! I hardly even noticed him dancing with her.
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Seanibu - You know, I used to be a 'nice guy', gentlemanly in an Old World sort of sense, and you know what that gets you 99% of the time?
Abuse, ridicule and alienation.
Now I say what I think, some people like it, some don't, and that's ok.
Because 99% of the time, it really doesn't matter what others think of you.
All this PC roundabout talk is BS, people (on forums as well as in the real world) say things that I don't agree with, hurt my feelings, go completely against every grain I've ever had, etc. all the time, but I don't cry about it, that's their opinion, and that's ok.
They have theirs, I have mine, and sometimes the twain shall never meet.
Oh well.
Yes, Kym sure is gorge-a-licious (besides being a great dancer), and if Out-of-Sync should happen to twist his ankle or something, I'll gladly volunteer as a replacement.:yes: :yes:
Being a Miss/model, she's probably a little too tall for me, but I think I might be able to get Miss Finnessey to do a little more than what she did the first two times around as well. She may not be the best ballroom dancer in the world, but I think she deserves better than to be treated like a stiff doll the guy just steps over and around.
How about a 'Dancing with the Average Person' show?
You could either have the contestants apply via mail/video/whatever, or pick them out of the audience, pair them either with each other (for added hilarity...) or with pros.
Sounds like fun to me, and dance studios around the country would appreciate the advertising.
Abuse, ridicule and alienation.
Now I say what I think, some people like it, some don't, and that's ok.
Because 99% of the time, it really doesn't matter what others think of you.
All this PC roundabout talk is BS, people (on forums as well as in the real world) say things that I don't agree with, hurt my feelings, go completely against every grain I've ever had, etc. all the time, but I don't cry about it, that's their opinion, and that's ok.
They have theirs, I have mine, and sometimes the twain shall never meet.
Oh well.
Yes, Kym sure is gorge-a-licious (besides being a great dancer), and if Out-of-Sync should happen to twist his ankle or something, I'll gladly volunteer as a replacement.:yes: :yes:
Being a Miss/model, she's probably a little too tall for me, but I think I might be able to get Miss Finnessey to do a little more than what she did the first two times around as well. She may not be the best ballroom dancer in the world, but I think she deserves better than to be treated like a stiff doll the guy just steps over and around.
How about a 'Dancing with the Average Person' show?
You could either have the contestants apply via mail/video/whatever, or pick them out of the audience, pair them either with each other (for added hilarity...) or with pros.
Sounds like fun to me, and dance studios around the country would appreciate the advertising.
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
Funny, I used to be the opposite, none of the friends I had growing up either stuck around, were worth a damn, were just angry at the world OR they have changed since too. Getting older and older I find I am not as copesetic, but being nice about something even meant as mean or snide has a lot more impact when it is phrased "intelligently and thoughtfully" anyway.
And I agree to, for I have been "walked on" for being too nice (Ex dually noted) but becoming cold and callus is not a good option either IMO.
This is only a guess and I'll drop the PC for you, but when you "say you were nice" but received abuse, ridicule and alienation is due to the fact you were being a phony. There is a difference between just trying to be nice, and saying that in which you truly / fully feel in a way that wont be convoluted with childish and otherwise discrediting types of vocabulary.
I think she is bigger lady - see you just thought fat, I left that open to your or anyone wanting to have their opinion while still being honest and complete in my feelings.
yet not going to some "trashy tone" that will not likely be appreciated by either POV. - other than birds of a feather. Cheryl's hand on my shoulder and waist as I look into those beautiful brown eyes then that smile .................*faint*That would be fun. I would love to see some GS members on the show.:agree:
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Phony?
Actually, nothing could be further from the truth, in fact, I kinda have to force myself sometimes to be callous, simply because it gets VASTLY better results than being nice.
In virtually every way, everywhere, all the time.
Sorry, I also wish this wasn't so, but it is.
Back to dancing now, unless things change very dramatically by next episode, I hope everybody votes to get Billy Ray outta there.
Mr. Ratzenberger probably deserves a little slack for having come in as a late replacement for someone else
Btw, did you notice the huge discrepancy in Leeza Gibbons' two performances?
What a difference long hair and a short skirt can make......
Actually, nothing could be further from the truth, in fact, I kinda have to force myself sometimes to be callous, simply because it gets VASTLY better results than being nice.
In virtually every way, everywhere, all the time.
Sorry, I also wish this wasn't so, but it is.
Back to dancing now, unless things change very dramatically by next episode, I hope everybody votes to get Billy Ray outta there.
Mr. Ratzenberger probably deserves a little slack for having come in as a late replacement for someone else
Btw, did you notice the huge discrepancy in Leeza Gibbons' two performances?
What a difference long hair and a short skirt can make......
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2005
Yeah, she was passable in Fox Trot, she SUCKED at Mambo. Not as badly as Shandi, who must go. I also find her partner odd, but I think he's a Standard/Smooth dancer so the Latin/Rhythm stuff is not this thing. Leeza does not have that excuse with Tony, who should be able to make a plank look good in a Rhythm dance. But overall, Shandi looks bad next to ME, and Rhythm is not my category. (Yes, she's tall and blonde. That's about all she has going for her. And tall isn't particularly a good thing if your partner isn't.)
Again: best female is Leila Ali, at least for Latin/Rhythm (I hate not knowing what to call that category. Mambo is, strictly speaking, American Rhythm, not Latin. The Latin dances are International Cha Cha, Samba, International Rhumba, Paso Doble, and Jive. The AR dances are AR Cha Cha, Mambo, AR Rhumba, Bolero, and Swing. Though, as my pro put it, they're kind of doing a cobbled-together dance that's less either proper style than "What the pros can crash-course them into in a very short time.") She actually danced instead of doing stunt work to cover poor footwork and she nailed the Cuban hip action. Credit where it's due to Heather, but one stunt piece that's illegal outside showcase (one foot must remain on the floor) does not an entire performance make. And I dread seeing her attempt Jive--I really am not seeing how that's possible withthout the ability to work the ankle.
Billy Ray--next after Shandi, but she was so awful at Mambo she has to go. Then after him, much as I hate to lose Tony, Leeza. But seriously--it is not the pro's fault if his partner just stands there like an idiot. It IS the pro's fault if he uses the fact he's got a female celebrity to get away with doing cheap stunts instead of forcing her to dance correctly. That was why the Season 1 Rematch show was the first reality show I ever called in for, to vote for John and Charlotte. He was blatantly robbed--he learned not only to dance, but to do a damn good job leading and framing, while whasserface and partner got away with 'fling the teeny girl around in impressive looking lifts."
Again: best female is Leila Ali, at least for Latin/Rhythm (I hate not knowing what to call that category. Mambo is, strictly speaking, American Rhythm, not Latin. The Latin dances are International Cha Cha, Samba, International Rhumba, Paso Doble, and Jive. The AR dances are AR Cha Cha, Mambo, AR Rhumba, Bolero, and Swing. Though, as my pro put it, they're kind of doing a cobbled-together dance that's less either proper style than "What the pros can crash-course them into in a very short time.") She actually danced instead of doing stunt work to cover poor footwork and she nailed the Cuban hip action. Credit where it's due to Heather, but one stunt piece that's illegal outside showcase (one foot must remain on the floor) does not an entire performance make. And I dread seeing her attempt Jive--I really am not seeing how that's possible withthout the ability to work the ankle.
Billy Ray--next after Shandi, but she was so awful at Mambo she has to go. Then after him, much as I hate to lose Tony, Leeza. But seriously--it is not the pro's fault if his partner just stands there like an idiot. It IS the pro's fault if he uses the fact he's got a female celebrity to get away with doing cheap stunts instead of forcing her to dance correctly. That was why the Season 1 Rematch show was the first reality show I ever called in for, to vote for John and Charlotte. He was blatantly robbed--he learned not only to dance, but to do a damn good job leading and framing, while whasserface and partner got away with 'fling the teeny girl around in impressive looking lifts."
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
Poor Billy Ray, he just can't dance. I'm not making fun of him ........he just can't dance. I do give him lots of credit for trying though. Tonight during the tango, he was counting his steps and then while dancing backwards he looked like he was playing basketball and guarding someone.
Dee
Dee
Actually, I always thought he was kinda goofy-looking when he was on GL, and even on 90210, but he finally seems to have "grown into his features" after all these years (Yipe! Guiding Light, for him, was like 20 years ago!!) and he is pretty good-looking now.
re. Laila Ali: Personally, I think that this is one sexy woman. And it's nice to see a lady out there who isn't built like a flagpole with a couple of oranges attached......
Now, regarding the ACTUAL DANCING:
Among the men, Ian and Apolo were easily the best; Clyde easily the worst. It seems to me it's rather hard to be good at this type of thing when you're as tall as he is; I think it's a "center of gravity" issue. "Little dudes" like Apolo have a lower center of gravity and I think that makes them more in touch with the ground, so to speak, since they're closer to it. Clyde's center of gravity has gotta be way up there. Speaking as someone who is 6-2, I can tell you that height can make some things more difficult than they are for shorter people. But Mr. Drexler tries and seems to be having fun, and in the end that's really all that matters. As far as Joey -- well, that whole thing was just plain WEIRD. He and Ratzenberger aren't exactly built for the tango (I'm no expert, but IMHO body line is fairly important in the tango; it just looks better when performed by people who are a little more -- er -- svelte), but they made a pretty good effort.
Leeza and Heather were the best among the ladies; Laila was a near disaster. She looked like a deer in headlights before they even started, and I doubt that this is a woman who is easily fazed by much. I liked Leeza's "ice queen" persona out there for the tango; very effective.
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2005
As usual, I was at the studio and missed the elimination.
Actually we were talking about what a disaster Leeza's tango was. She was TERRIBLE. Poor Tony. I mean, even setting aside that dowdy dress (here's a tip--if you want to look slimmer, skip the open back) she was stiff and just seemed to refuse to let him lead her. My God, woman, you are dancing with one of the best dancers in the ENTIRE FRICKIN' WORLD--LET HIM LEAD.
Leila: Maks, WTF? I mean, yeah, it's DWTS, not Ohio Star Ball, but still, he knows the rules and the sylabus. If they are in fact wanting them to do Standard, even if sometimes it doesn't look like it. But he's the dancer, not Leila, the error was his. (In Standard once hold is taken, it isn't broken.) Oh, and memo to the musicians on this one: is Shirley Bassey going to have to smack a *****? That was the worst rendition of "Goldfinger" I've ever heard.)
Ian: Ian spurred a debate about where exactly the lead comes from and whether he was in a good line or broken at the waist. (The general concensus was broken at the waist, which is wrong because it causes a disconnect.)
Heather: Once with the flip is cute. Twice and it's now shctick. Knock it off and dance.
Apolo: Smooth/Standard is obviously his thing. Jive was okay.
Shandi: Please go away and take your weird little partner with you.
John: Nice try. My corte is better than their corte.
Clyde: I feel so bad for him--he's like a gangly pupppy--there's speed there, but he can't get his feet under him.
Joey: Okay, I disagree that Star Wars is a tango, but at least no one was singing. And I love the concept. Now if only he'd pick up his head and shoulders.
Billy Ray: Improvement. He's not great, but he's better.
Actually we were talking about what a disaster Leeza's tango was. She was TERRIBLE. Poor Tony. I mean, even setting aside that dowdy dress (here's a tip--if you want to look slimmer, skip the open back) she was stiff and just seemed to refuse to let him lead her. My God, woman, you are dancing with one of the best dancers in the ENTIRE FRICKIN' WORLD--LET HIM LEAD.
Leila: Maks, WTF? I mean, yeah, it's DWTS, not Ohio Star Ball, but still, he knows the rules and the sylabus. If they are in fact wanting them to do Standard, even if sometimes it doesn't look like it. But he's the dancer, not Leila, the error was his. (In Standard once hold is taken, it isn't broken.) Oh, and memo to the musicians on this one: is Shirley Bassey going to have to smack a *****? That was the worst rendition of "Goldfinger" I've ever heard.)
Ian: Ian spurred a debate about where exactly the lead comes from and whether he was in a good line or broken at the waist. (The general concensus was broken at the waist, which is wrong because it causes a disconnect.)
Heather: Once with the flip is cute. Twice and it's now shctick. Knock it off and dance.
Apolo: Smooth/Standard is obviously his thing. Jive was okay.
Shandi: Please go away and take your weird little partner with you.
John: Nice try. My corte is better than their corte.
Clyde: I feel so bad for him--he's like a gangly pupppy--there's speed there, but he can't get his feet under him.
Joey: Okay, I disagree that Star Wars is a tango, but at least no one was singing. And I love the concept. Now if only he'd pick up his head and shoulders.
Billy Ray: Improvement. He's not great, but he's better.
Agree with most of what Juliet said, except I didn't think Shandi was THAT bad, not great, but certainly not the worst.
But since she's a 'Miss', all female audience members automatically despise her, so she had to go....
That would once again have been Mr. Ratzenberger, who pretty much just stands there and lets his partner backlead him. Some of those pro ladies have some serious steely muscles in that tiny little body.
Apolo and Julianne are such a breath of fresh air, like two nice young people having a lot of fun. I hope they win. Probably won't 'cause we can't have 2 male athletes win in a row now, can we....?
Laila - Ugh.
I feel really sorry for Kym Johnson for having to drag that nerdy tub o' lard - complete with Lightsaber (TM) !!!???!!!??? - around the floor. Go away, Joey.
I still believe Heather will be in the 'final' , the way they're harping on and on about the leg this and the leg that, it's become VERY obvious that she's the 'freakshow' that is supposed to drive up ratings.
Clyde and his little Russian dyevuchka are doing pretty well, considering the major handicap they have to deal with in terms of size difference. There is a lady who regularly goes to one of the night clubs here, who might be more his size, she's EASILY 6'5" or more.
Leeza Gibbons wins the award for most incongruous hype, all that jive about how she's 'feeling' the tango, has found her 'inner ****' or something to that effect did in no way whatsoever translate into the most uninspired, lame, listless tango I've ever seen on tv.
Billy Ray surprised me, he actually did ok, looked like he really made an effort this time.
But since she's a 'Miss', all female audience members automatically despise her, so she had to go....
That would once again have been Mr. Ratzenberger, who pretty much just stands there and lets his partner backlead him. Some of those pro ladies have some serious steely muscles in that tiny little body.
Apolo and Julianne are such a breath of fresh air, like two nice young people having a lot of fun. I hope they win. Probably won't 'cause we can't have 2 male athletes win in a row now, can we....?
Laila - Ugh.
I feel really sorry for Kym Johnson for having to drag that nerdy tub o' lard - complete with Lightsaber (TM) !!!???!!!??? - around the floor. Go away, Joey.
I still believe Heather will be in the 'final' , the way they're harping on and on about the leg this and the leg that, it's become VERY obvious that she's the 'freakshow' that is supposed to drive up ratings.
Clyde and his little Russian dyevuchka are doing pretty well, considering the major handicap they have to deal with in terms of size difference. There is a lady who regularly goes to one of the night clubs here, who might be more his size, she's EASILY 6'5" or more.
Leeza Gibbons wins the award for most incongruous hype, all that jive about how she's 'feeling' the tango, has found her 'inner ****' or something to that effect did in no way whatsoever translate into the most uninspired, lame, listless tango I've ever seen on tv.
Billy Ray surprised me, he actually did ok, looked like he really made an effort this time.
You took the rant right out of me. I had to immediately step off my chair and sip a beverage.
Monday was the first time I've seen Apolo dance and really like there jive dance. Funny I've been listening to my Pulp Fiction Cd at work for about a week.
I also agree with Heather and he leg tired of hearing about it, also if she wasn't going to wear heels she should have wore a pair of saddle shoes to fit the costume or a nicer looking pair of sneakers those black one were just ugly.
Ian not bad better than thought he'd be.
I also agree with Heather and he leg tired of hearing about it, also if she wasn't going to wear heels she should have wore a pair of saddle shoes to fit the costume or a nicer looking pair of sneakers those black one were just ugly.
Ian not bad better than thought he'd be.
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
:agree: Thanks to Cheryl
*swoon*Apolo is coming out to be the one to beat IMO, he will likely wind up 2nd in the votes as predicted and always seems to happen - well the last 2 seasons anyhoo.
And yes, sick of the attention to "the leg
" I never noticed until it was mentioned back when her and Paul were together, other wise never would have known. I wish it would stop because you know there will be the "controversy" if she does well or wins that it was all sympathy votes. So they better stop now or the really "hubba baloo" will really start to wear on the nerves.
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- Joined
- Sep 10, 2005
Wolfgang, geez--it's not a matter of disliking the women, Shandi just sucked. (If there's an unreasoning dislike regarding that couple, I have to say I just can't stand Brian Fortuna. It's not really fair to him, he just weirds me out.) As I'm increasingly convinced Leeza does, because, I've said it a million times, if she can't dance with HIM leading her, she can't dance with ANYONE. Clyde I think is just not going to be able to overcome the height problem. John at least brings panache to the party, but that's what's keeping him ahead of them.
I honestly find Apolo weak in Latin. (Jive is Latin, for those unfamiliar with dancesport.) He seemed far more at ease with quickstep, so I'm anxious to see him do another Standard number.
I honestly find Apolo weak in Latin. (Jive is Latin, for those unfamiliar with dancesport.) He seemed far more at ease with quickstep, so I'm anxious to see him do another Standard number.
Well, this week, I would've let John Ratzenberger go, but Leeza is an ok choice, both are lame.
Clyde Drexler really does not seem to take this seriously - maybe he knows something.....? - I imagine little Elena prolly calls him some choice Russian 'pet names'.....
Billy Ray fell back down the abyss he came from, still have nothing good to say about Ms. Ali - aside from the fact that she's definitely the strongest lady there......
Wouldn't mind to hear Maksim Chmerkovsky's comments - unedited........
Apolo & Julianne were lovely, Prince and Princess at the ball is right!
I have to grudgingly admit that Fat Boy did a good job with the Pasough Dough-Blay, and not just because his partner is stunning.
Heather looked a little wooden (no pun intended), since it's kinda hard to be gimmicky in a waltz.
Ian Ziering may be the overall best dancer of all the celebs, and he seems to want to win the most.
Clyde Drexler really does not seem to take this seriously - maybe he knows something.....? - I imagine little Elena prolly calls him some choice Russian 'pet names'.....
Billy Ray fell back down the abyss he came from, still have nothing good to say about Ms. Ali - aside from the fact that she's definitely the strongest lady there......
Wouldn't mind to hear Maksim Chmerkovsky's comments - unedited........
Apolo & Julianne were lovely, Prince and Princess at the ball is right!
I have to grudgingly admit that Fat Boy did a good job with the Pasough Dough-Blay, and not just because his partner is stunning.
Heather looked a little wooden (no pun intended), since it's kinda hard to be gimmicky in a waltz.
Ian Ziering may be the overall best dancer of all the celebs, and he seems to want to win the most.
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2005
I'd love to hear Maks, because that's the second week in a row their sucking has been HIS fault. Last week, he screwed up rules it was his job as a pro to know. This week, while I understand the tendency to ignore her for this dance (Paso is truly a masculine dance) I think he left her hanging. That's a very hard dance to do and I get the feeling he's not really very good at helping his partners out when they aren't familiar with it.
Billy Ray wins best of the worst simply because, his technique was poor, but he was TRYING. He's improved. John and Clyde have backslid. John simply couldn't do Paso. There's no real shame in that, as it's a dance that is not easy, but he and his partner could have at least tried going more textbook with it. And Clyde...I really think he's just gotten screwed in the partnering. There is no way he and Elena are ever really going to fit. If he's frustrated and phoning it in, I can rather see why. Whoever did that partnering wasn't very bright.
Good riddance to Leeza. Now, my one instructor, who is both a Latin champion and a certified adjudicator, is of the opinion that Tony Dovolani is not easy to follow. (He is basing this on familiarity with Tony, not the show, because he doesn't watch the show.) But still--my lessons with said instructor have been about teaching me to give the man something to lead, and I can see that Leeza was not doing that. I don't know if she was freaking with nerves, or is just naturally stiff, but BLAH.
Heather--I think the free ride is over, thank God. Her upper body bit.
Joey: While his technique was not flawless, IT LOOKED LIKE A PASO DOBLE. For that alone I could have kissed him. That is my favorite Latin dance and while I gave Billy Ray points for trying, all the rest made me want to heave a brick through the TV (or at least my lunch onto the carpet.) Apparently, they do not chose the music, so yes, they are working with what they're given and in that respect he lucked out, but while again he wasn't up to even high-level pro-am standards, he understood the character and the basics and was trying.
Apolo: A little loose and sloppy, but they are the best-matched couple and it was a nice waltz.
Ian: Wolfgang, I think we are the only people in the world who like Ian that much. I don't know what the judges were on about because while it wasn't flashy, waltz isn't meant to be. This wasn't a Viennese. They did a nice basic Standard waltz, his feet were good, they had good rise and fall, it was nice. The judges lowballed him.
Billy Ray wins best of the worst simply because, his technique was poor, but he was TRYING. He's improved. John and Clyde have backslid. John simply couldn't do Paso. There's no real shame in that, as it's a dance that is not easy, but he and his partner could have at least tried going more textbook with it. And Clyde...I really think he's just gotten screwed in the partnering. There is no way he and Elena are ever really going to fit. If he's frustrated and phoning it in, I can rather see why. Whoever did that partnering wasn't very bright.
Good riddance to Leeza. Now, my one instructor, who is both a Latin champion and a certified adjudicator, is of the opinion that Tony Dovolani is not easy to follow. (He is basing this on familiarity with Tony, not the show, because he doesn't watch the show.) But still--my lessons with said instructor have been about teaching me to give the man something to lead, and I can see that Leeza was not doing that. I don't know if she was freaking with nerves, or is just naturally stiff, but BLAH.
Heather--I think the free ride is over, thank God. Her upper body bit.
Joey: While his technique was not flawless, IT LOOKED LIKE A PASO DOBLE. For that alone I could have kissed him. That is my favorite Latin dance and while I gave Billy Ray points for trying, all the rest made me want to heave a brick through the TV (or at least my lunch onto the carpet.) Apparently, they do not chose the music, so yes, they are working with what they're given and in that respect he lucked out, but while again he wasn't up to even high-level pro-am standards, he understood the character and the basics and was trying.
Apolo: A little loose and sloppy, but they are the best-matched couple and it was a nice waltz.
Ian: Wolfgang, I think we are the only people in the world who like Ian that much. I don't know what the judges were on about because while it wasn't flashy, waltz isn't meant to be. This wasn't a Viennese. They did a nice basic Standard waltz, his feet were good, they had good rise and fall, it was nice. The judges lowballed him.
