Did not miss Plushenko at all!

[Mathman]

But the enjoyable thing about Plushenko's skating is that he never falls down.

Plus, when he says he is going to do a qaud/triple, or a triple Axel, that's what he does.

Kind of a nice change from the other guys, who go crosscut, crosscut, crosscut, fall, crosscut, crosscut, crosscut, pop.

MM

 

[slutskayafan21]

On the original topic--nope, won't miss Plushenko at all. He's a great technical skater and a boring 'artist' (at least where his competitive programs were concerned.) Flailing arms and dull footwork to fill time between jumping passes. Give me Alexei Yagudin a thousand times over--I'd rather watch him now, with no quads and only a couple jumps, than sit through yet another performance by Plushenko that's, as David Pelletier put it on OI, "Crosscut, crosscut, crosscut, jump, crosscut, crosscut, crosscut, jump."

Agree 100%

 

[Vitacus]

But the enjoyable thing about Plushenko's skating is that he never falls down.

Plus, when he says he is going to do a qaud/triple, or a triple Axel, that's what he does.

Kind of a nice change from the other guys, who go crosscut, crosscut, crosscut, fall, crosscut, crosscut, crosscut, pop.

MM

I agree.

Well, obviously I'm in a minority here because I actually think Plushenko's a great wonderful 'artist' who's always exciting, charismatic and brilliant.

He may not be the best on every little detail of skating but he's the best performer and he's the best at putting his best out there when it counts the most. That's admirable

He delivers.

 

[antmanb]

Nope. Lambiel still wins, 6.75 factored placements to 7.75.

MM - where are you getting your factored placements from?? They never ended in x.x5!!

I worked it out and Joubert would have won under factored placements as Fumie would have in the ladies!!

Actually i got it wrong for the men too!!

Men's result ( i only went down to Weir so if because of funniness in placements Preaubert or someone else below weir actually made it above them, sporry i didn't work it all out)

From what i recall the QR got a factor of 0.4, the SP a factor of 0.6 and the LP a factor of 1 therefore results would have been:

1. Lambiel 0.4 + 2.4 + 1 = 3.8 (LP placement is the tie breaker)
2. Joubert 1.2 + 0.6 + 2 = 3.8 (LP placement is the tie breaker)
3. Oda 0.4 + 1.8 + 5 = 7.2
4. Sandhu 2.4 + 1.2 + 4 = 7.6
5. Lysacek 0.8 + 4.8 + 3 = 8.6
6. Buttle 0.8 + 4.2 + 7 = 12.0
7. Weir 1.6 + 3.0 + 8 = 12.6

In the Men's the only change would have been Lysacek missing out on bronze and slotting in after sandhu with everyone above him moving up one meaning Oda getting the bronze

Ladies:

(i started doing 8 times table instead of six so there may be mistakes in the SP factoring!!)

1. Suguri 0.4 + 1.2 + 2 = 3.6
2. Meissner 0.8 + 3.0 + 1 = 4.8
3. Cohen 1.2 + 0.6 + 4 = 5.8
4. Sokolova 2.4 + 1.8 + 3 = 7.2
5. Meier 2.0 + 2.5 + 5 = 9.4
6. Nakano 0.8 + 3.6 + 6 = 10.4
7. Rochette 0.4 + 4.2 + 8 = 12.6
8. Hughes 1.2 + 6.0 + 7 = 14.2

In the ladies the only changes would have been Suguri and Meissner swapping places in gold and silver and Meier and Nakano swapping 5th and 6th place.

Ant <who realises there's no benefit in doing this but just for a laugh, and procrastinating at work!>

 

[antmanb]

But the enjoyable thing about Plushenko's skating is that he never falls down.

The guy isn't a robot, he does fall down sometimes - sometimes he even slips off the entrance edges to loop jumps...ah there's hope for me yet!!! More often than not he pops his salchow to a double...let's not get too carried away with things here. He does fall and make mistakes he just does it A LOT LESS than anyone else!

Plus, when he says he is going to do a qaud/triple, or a triple Axel, that's what he does.

Except when he doesn't!!! I was ready in the Men's SP and the LP in Torino with popcorn ready, DVD burning away awaiting the fabled quad toeloop/triple loop combination i had been promised by Pluschenko at Europeans (which he landed in the SP warm up at Europeans!) and was left wanting...he doesn't always deliver on his promises!!

Kind of a nice change from the other guys, who go crosscut, crosscut, crosscut, fall, crosscut, crosscut, crosscut, pop.

MM

That it certainly is...that's why i love watching the warm up - you get to see the skaters chargina round the rink stalking their jumps. To me watching pluschenko is like watching a warm up - skating around from jump to jump to jump, maybe a spin, loads more jumps a bit of footwork and spins and we're done...there's no difference. No complaints just an observation - he doesn't look any different, every other skater changes for the actual program. Myabe pluschenko just gets "in character" for the warm up and stays in character throughout?

Ant

 

[Mathman]

Ant, I guess I was misremembering how they did the factored placements last year. I thought that in the qualifying round they did it like this. Joubert got third in his qualifying group, so that means overall he tied for 5th-6th place. (I guess I was wrong in then using this years' weights in ratio of .5:1:2 -- that's where the extra decimal place came from -- giving him a "5.5" placement for the qual. Never mind. )

 

[antmanb]

Ant, I guess I was misremembering how they did the factored placements last year. I thought that in the qualifying round they did it like this. Joubert got third in his qualifying group, so that means overall he tied for 5th-6th place. (I guess I was wrong in then using this years' weights in ratio of .5:1:2 -- that's where the extra decimal place came from -- giving him a "5.5" placement for the qual. Never mind. )

Oh i see! It took me quite aq while of head scartching to remember what the factored placements were.

Was the ratio this year really 0.5:1:2? So does that mean the QR and SP were both worth a quarter of the total each with the LP being half? They really have added weight to the QR then.

I still think that the QR should be like in Juniors - to get the skating groups done for the SP but not carry over the marks.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Ant, I guess I was misremembering how they did the factored placements last year. I thought that in the qualifying round they did it like this. Joubert got third in his qualifying group, so that means overall he tied for 5th-6th place. (I guess I was wrong in then using this years' weights in ratio of .5:1:2 -- that's where the extra decimal place came from -- giving him a "5.5" placement for the qual. Never mind. )

Mathman - You're determined to have Joubert as the winner (never said much about him before the competition). And you can justify it under the 6.0 system. But you are diehard in favor of the CoP system and it just doesn't hold water for justifying Joubert as the winner. No matter how you juggle those percentages, it is not Joubert on top. It's a wait until next year.

Under 6.0 without Qualis, Lambiel in 4th place - easy to get on podium but not easy to win. This should be your argument.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Mathman - You're determined to have Joubert as the winner (never said much about him before the competition). And you can justify it under the 6.0 system.

? Joe, I think you might be confusing "no" with "yes."

In your post #58 you asked whether Joubert would have won under 6.0 judging.

In post #59 I did you the courtesy -- so I thought -- of computing the answer for you from the placements.

No. Under 6.0 judging Lambiel still wins.

MM

PS. Congratulations again for your accurate prediction of Lambiel and Joubert as the two top finishers at Worlds. (Sandhu was robbed. )

 

[Mathman]

Was the ratio this year really 0.5:1:2? So does that mean the QR and SP were both worth a quarter of the total each with the LP being half? They really have added weight to the QR then.

Hey, Ant. Well, I'm sorry I got into it at all now, having made so many mistakes already, LOL. (I think I'll start a thread, "If Jackson Haynes had come back from the dead and competed at 2006 Worlds, would Lambiel still have won?")

Anyway...here is how my tortured mind works. The ratio of 0.5 : 1 : 2 (or 0.25 : 0.5 :1) is a translation appropriate to ordinals of the relative weights 0.25 : 1 : 1 that the CoP gives to points.

This works out because the SP automatically generates only half as many technical points as the LP, and the PCSs are weighted to keep pace. (The factors on the PCSs for men are 1.0 for the short and 2.0 for the long; for the ladies, 0.8 and 1.6.)

MM :scratch:

 

[Skater1973]

I love Plushenko and I miss him, Cohen and Weir :disapp: me, Chineses Champions me. No i dislike this Champ!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Mathman - Sorry I misunderstood. I intend to be able to read your calculations by next Campbells. In the meantime, I'll just look at the details and see if a majority of judges have anyone placed to my liking.

As to the prediction, I had this feeling that the N.American boys were not going to do it except for the bronze. I think Stephane and Brian have a big rivalry going which makes them want to increase their tech. Watch, there will be two different quads next season.

In North America, I only see Evan as really trying to win. the two Japanese boys will have a rivalry soon. Two are now eligible for next Worlds.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

Hey, Ant. Well, I'm sorry I got into it at all now, having made so many mistakes already, LOL. (I think I'll start a thread, "If Jackson Haynes had come back from the dead and competed at 2006 Worlds, would Lambiel still have won?")

Anyway...here is how my tortured mind works. The ratio of 0.5 : 1 : 2 (or 0.25 : 0.5 :1) is a translation appropriate to ordinals of the relative weights 0.25 : 1 : 1 that the CoP gives to points.

This works out because the SP automatically generates only half as many technical points as the LP, and the PCSs are weighted to keep pace. (The factors on the PCSs for men are 1.0 for the short and 2.0 for the long; for the ladies, 0.8 and 1.6.)

MM :scratch:

Don't worry MM i don't thin i'll ever get how the ISU think they're weighting the various rounds correctly...i think the whole system has been written so that no one person on thei rown can ever understand the whole thing..!

Ant

 

[antmanb]

As to the prediction, I had this feeling that the N.American boys were not going to do it except for the bronze. I think Stephane and Brian have a big rivalry going which makes them want to increase their tech. Watch, there will be two different quads next season.

Joe

Do you think from both of them or just one...any predictions as to which other quad besides toe you expect to see from them?

Ant

 

[curious]

There's no big rivalry between Joubert and Lambiel at the moment,but that can change if Brian beats him consistently next season.

 

[slutskayafan21]

There's no big rivalry between Joubert and Lambiel at the moment,but that can change if Brian beats him consistently next season.

That wont happen unless Marie-Reine Le Gougne and Didier G. come back on the scene full time or something.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Do you think from both of them or just one...any predictions as to which other quad besides toe you expect to see from them?Ant

Both have good 3lutz. I think with the proper take off they can get this quad.

Curious - the rivalry beetween Joubert and Lambiel began way back in Euros 2003. They were new to int's comps and battling it out for third place, Joubert got it and he beatLambiel in 2004 as well but lost in Moscow Worlds to Lambiel. It's a rivalry.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

Both have good 3lutz. I think with the proper take off they can get this quad.

Curious - the rivalry beetween Joubert and Lambiel began way back in Euros 2003. They were new to int's comps and battling it out for third place, Joubert got it and he beatLambiel in 2004 as well but lost in Moscow Worlds to Lambiel. It's a rivalry.

Joe

Well the early defeats of Lambiel by Joubert were in the early stages of Lambiel's career - weren't they when he didn't have triple axels or quads to put in his programs. I think Lambiel has the edge in terms of comparable competition wins ie when they both had similar planned technical content in their programs but i agree that if Joubert gets his jumps working consistently again then it will be a good rivalry...but if plushcneko comes back next season then it'll be the battle for silver and bronze i suspect, unless the judges wake up and start giving out real PCS marks.

I agree about the lutz for stephane but i think the flip is easier for Brian - remeber that he uses the flip in his SP rather than the Lutz which suggests to me that joubert might prefer the flip. It will be an interesting few seasons in the men's field.

Ant

 

[slutskayafan21]

I think Joubert will be Lambiel's biggest rival over the next 4 years if he keeps the level of skating he showed at Worlds, and does not get involved in pety sidebar squabbles with the French federation again. Oda and Takahashi will improve alot though and could challenge for the top 2 as well in a couple years time, Lysacek and Weir will probably add quads but that is it, they certainly dont have the improvement left the two Japanese men do, and they wont ever beat a clean Lambiel or even a clean Joubert even with quads no matter how well they skate. However I agree if Plushy comes back the judges will coronate him with all +2s and +3s on GOE, even on a day his elements are a "bit off", and mid-8s to 9s on PCS to give him his typical 5-fall cushion, and the rest will be fighting for silver.

 

[bestskate8]

All I have to say is that I totally agree with this 100 per cent. The fact that he hasn't been challenged in four years shows in his own lack of development since Yagudin retired. He has not addressed his weaknesses, as the judges seem not to care about them either, and his choreography still leaves a lot to be desired.

did you watch Plushenko since 2002 he has level 3-4 spins and footwork, not even close what Yags did in 2002.
Give Plushenko a break, he worked hard enough to get where he is now, or sorry I forgot you know what judges suggested to him.
No one did level 4 footwork at Oly ONLY Plushenko

Yags footwork from Oly 2002 would be level 1 or may be 0.5:chorus: