Did not miss Plushenko at all!

[bestskate8]

No Lysacek is, Plushenko is a strong second.

Ops Slyskaya is

 

[bestskate8]

I actually missed Yagudin alot the last few years. I missed his skating which is much more enjoyable to watch than Plushenko`s routines full of bare choreography and meaningless arm motions. I also missed the competitive aspect of the event that was lost when he was forced out of the sport with injury.

Thanks for a good laugh this morning.
Here you go, now it is obvious why you didn't miss him this worlds, but you have to put with Plushenko another four years, because he is staying till 2010

 

[bestskate8]

Mishin`s skaters always have awful choregraphy. He is just a technical coach, albeit a great one. If Plushenko had a real choreographer he would have alot better choreographed programs that tap his true artistic talents. Mishin should recognize that and suggest him having one. Then again the judges give out mid-8s for choreography and transitions for his empty programs so perhaps there was no incentive from a competitive perspective to do this.

you forgot to say IMHO dear:chorus: :chorus:

 

[bestskate8]

Yeah, he was the best. But, blowing up the scores so high that even if he completly crashed & burned still no one would have caught him. that LP was totally front loaded & lacked any type of artistic style.

& Plus fans cryed over Alexei 6.0's at SLC. At least he did more that cross overs & jumps. There was an actualy theme & artistic flare to his LP.

don't fool youself

Yagudin program was level 1 spins and wootwork and Plushenko level 3-4. one more laugh about theme&artistic flare:chorus: as you think Plushenko dodn't have

 

[bestskate8]

Sorry for the interruption on bashing Plushenko.
Still had a good laugh on how people can find the way to please themself:indiff:

Just for those who didn’t miss him this Worlds, he IS staying for next 4 years.

 

[antmanb]

don't fool youself

Yagudin program was level 1 spins and wootwork and Plushenko level 3-4. one more laugh about theme&artistic flare:chorus: as you think Plushenko dodn't have

Since the CoP wasn't even written in 2002 i don't think you can say what anyone's footworks or spins were in that year. To my mind both skaters were incredibly talented and pushed each other to new heights but i think uniformly people accept that Yagudin was the more artistic and well rounded skater, where Pluschenko's stregnth's lie mostly in the technical. In having Yagudin retire Pluschenko has not been pushed by any skater at all and as such has not improved any areas of his skating - he skates at the same level now as he did do in 2002.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Sorry for the interruption on bashing Plushenko.
Still had a good laugh on how people can find the way to please themself:indiff:

Just for those who didn’t miss him this Worlds, he IS staying for next 4 years.

Do you have any examples of where this has been stated in the press because i have read conflicting reports about whether Pluschenko will remain elligible. At first the Media reported he would stay in til 2010 and in later articles they say he's unsure but thikning about hangin up his elligible skates and touring in Europe.

Ant

 

[Niza]

Since the CoP wasn't even written in 2002 i don't think you can say what anyone's footworks or spins were in that year. To my mind both skaters were incredibly talented and pushed each other to new heights but i think uniformly people accept that Yagudin was the more artistic and well rounded skater, where Pluschenko's stregnth's lie mostly in the technical. In having Yagudin retire Pluschenko has not been pushed by any skater at all and as such has not improved any areas of his skating - he skates at the same level now as he did do in 2002.

Ant

I think It is not truth. His spins became much better in comparison with 2002 and his footwork far more difficult. He said in interview, that now the footwork and 4T take away identical quantity his strength. He said that programs were much easier earlier, because there there were only jumps.
Yes certainly the new system did not work in 2002, but we can to compare spins and footwork then and now , especially if you consider that Plush skates at the same level. Fact, that in those programs these elements were a level 1.
Artistry, well, I always put Plush above in this area, but it is my taste. But i dislike when you speak on behalf of the majority. Plush's problem is not successful performance at OG, but you should not judge only one performance.
I hope you have understood my English.

 

[hockeyfan228]

He said in interview, that now the footwork and 4T take away identical quantity his strength. He said that programs were much easier earlier, because there there were only jumps.
Yes certainly the new system did not work in 2002, but we can to compare spins and footwork then and now , especially if you consider that Plush skates at the same level.

Plushenko only added higher level spins because the system rewarded higher level spins; there was no incentive for him to expend the energy and strength for higher level spins until CoP.

In comparing two skaters, a comparison of 2002 is the only relevant one. In comparing "then and now," the only relevant comparison is between Plushenko's spins and footwork from 2002 to 2006, because it shows Plushenko's improvement. Comparing Plushenko's 2006 spins to Yagudin's 2002 spins is meaningless, because they were created for two different systems. Yagudin never competed under the new system and he didn't have the incentive to expend his strength on complex spins.

 

[Zazanuka]

Plush competed under the old system and under the new system therefore

Pluschenko has not been pushed by any skater at all and as such has not improved any areas of his skating - he skates at the same level now as he did do in 2002.

Ant

:disagree:

 

[antmanb]

I think It is not truth. His spins became much better in comparison with 2002 and his footwork far more difficult. He said in interview, that now the footwork and 4T take away identical quantity his strength. He said that programs were much easier earlier, because there there were only jumps.
Yes certainly the new system did not work in 2002, but we can to compare spins and footwork then and now , especially if you consider that Plush skates at the same level. Fact, that in those programs these elements were a level 1.
Artistry, well, I always put Plush above in this area, but it is my taste. But i dislike when you speak on behalf of the majority. Plush's problem is not successful performance at OG, but you should not judge only one performance.
I hope you have understood my English.

I think his spins have improved in terms of CoP - he does level enhancers like changing edges and doing back-front spins...in terms of actual imporvement in the quality of the spins - i don' think he has improved them - he has one of the worst "sit" positions in his sitspins and doesn't go down as far as he should.

I don't think you can state as "fact" that anyone's levels in 2002 were level 1 since the "fact" is that no-one called them. We can look at the criteria that is in place and say we think that the footwork might have been called level 1 but since we aren't technical callers no such "fact" can be stated.

My opinion on Pluschenko this season is that he was overmakred in his spins. The fact he was receiving similar and sometimes higher marks than Lambiel in spins is ridiculous - Lambiel is a much better spinner than Pluschenko by a fair margin - it isn't even close. Equally my opinion is that Pluschenko's footwork is sloppy and not well executed. I have not sat down with the criteria to see if i agree with it being assigned level 4 but he often does not finish his turns properly and falls out of twizzles, his footwork, to me should receive -GOEs and he benefits from having such frenetic, jerky movements in his step sequences that make it easy to disguise a stumble since it all looks quite "stumbly" to me. Other skaters with a more fluid and flwoing footwork sequence to not get the same benefit of the doubt.

My statement that it was "widely accepted" that Yagudin was more artisitc and Pluschenko was more about the technical was based on the fact that when the two skated clean Yagudin would usually beat him in the presentation mark. Up until 2002 that was always the case. Which leads me to assume that the judges certainyl thought Yagudin to be the more artisitc of the two. I think the judges then started to recognise a more artistic side to Pluschenko's skating as he got older but not while Yagudin was around.

And i totally understood your english what is your first language?

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Plushenko only added higher level spins because the system rewarded higher level spins; there was no incentive for him to expend the energy and strength for higher level spins until CoP.

In comparing two skaters, a comparison of 2002 is the only relevant one. In comparing "then and now," the only relevant comparison is between Plushenko's spins and footwork from 2002 to 2006, because it shows Plushenko's improvement. Comparing Plushenko's 2006 spins to Yagudin's 2002 spins is meaningless, because they were created for two different systems. Yagudin never competed under the new system and he didn't have the incentive to expend his strength on complex spins.

I totally agree with this - comparisons of two different skaters in different times, under different judging systems is not one that can be made with any great meaning.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Plush competed under the old system and under the new system therefore



:disagree:

The persumption is that the current judging has led to an "improvement" in skating skills. My personal opinion is that the current version of CoP rewards gimmicks in skating like changing edges in spins, and pulling one's leg over one's head. To my mind this is not an improvement in skating skills, hence my original statement.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Still he could never get all the way down in a sitsspin! Does he get credit for a sitsspin? I wonder what the reason for not getting all the way down in a sitsspin is? Maybe an impediment in his body.

Although he did increase his level of spins, were they all that interesting? in comparing them to other skaters like Weir? Buttle? Sandhu?

Joe

 

[harmonie]

I think Joubert will be Lambiel's biggest rival over the next 4 years (...) Lysacek and Weir will probably add quads but that is it, (...) they wont ever beat a clean Lambiel or even a clean Joubert even with quads no matter how well they skate.

Wanna bet? They did beat Lambiel fair and square when they were juniors, and I see no reason for them to not beat him again.
And Lysacek and even Weir are waaay better skaters than Joubert.

 

[slutskayafan21]

So what, in 2001 Weir and Lysacek already had triple axels. Lambiel did not have a triple axel, only a triple lutz, and was an even more inconsistent jumper than he is now. Yes I would easily bet Lambiel wont be losing to either of those in the coming years unless his knee problems become chronic. Lambiel beats them both over and over and over again now, and that is what matters, nobody cares about the Junior Worlds.

Joubert is better than Lysacek and Weir, like it or not, that is a fact. Joubert has won two World silvers, and won a significant title(2004 Europeans) over Plushenko. Lysacek and Weir have done none of those things, and none of the 3 have an Olympic medal.

 

[Zazanuka]

And Lysacek and even Weir are waaay better skaters than Joubert.

No, Weir and even Lysacek are waaay better skaters than Joubert. I think Weir even better skater than Lambiel despite of all his medals.
Basic Weir's problem is quard, which he cannot jump in competitions. But even without quard clean Weir should win clean Joubert if correctly to put estimations for PCS.
If Lysacek will jump the quard in the following season who will be the leader? Weir, Lysacek, Lambiel?

 

[Zazanuka]

The persumption is that the current judging has led to an "improvement" in skating skills. My personal opinion is that the current version of CoP rewards gimmicks in skating like changing edges in spins, and pulling one's leg over one's head. To my mind this is not an improvement in skating skills, hence my original statement.

Ant

Yes, this is your personal opinion.
I only do'nt understand what difference for what reason there was a perfection-improvement-change, it has occured.

 

[soogar]

The persumption is that the current judging has led to an "improvement" in skating skills. My personal opinion is that the current version of CoP rewards gimmicks in skating like changing edges in spins, and pulling one's leg over one's head. To my mind this is not an improvement in skating skills, hence my original statement.

Ant

Changing edges is hard as he!! to do in a spin (which is why skaters didn't do it too often in 6.0 days) and spinning in an I and Biellman position is also very difficult.

 

[Mathman]

For what it's worth (?), Ottavio Cinquanta was asked after the Olympics if he thought the New Judging System was to blame for the marked and obvious decline in skating skills among the competors.

He said, no, it's not the fault of the judging system, it's the fault of the national federations for failing to develop the talent.

MM