Discussion - Is Sasha's Skating Brittle or Fragile?

[janetb]

Personally I would like to Post a thank you to Rgirl for her great post. This is the best comparison of these three I have ever seen. That Rgirl was able to post so well and without bias is a lesson to all of us. Perhaps another good topic to discuss is why it is okay for people to critize Sasha (for lack of edges or her Flutz) or Irena (for her poor posture) when it's not okay to critize Michelle (for her current lack of a loop and her lesser spining abilities)

Janet

 

[Doggygirl]

Personally I would like to Post a thank you to Rgirl for her great post. This is the best comparison of these three I have ever seen. That Rgirl was able to post so well and without bias is a lesson to all of us. Perhaps another good topic to discuss is why it is okay for people to critize Sasha (for lack of edges or her Flutz) or Irena (for her poor posture) when it's not okay to critize Michelle (for her current lack of a loop and her lesser spining abilities)

Janet

Add my thanks as well to RGirl for a great post!

With tongue firmly planted in cheek Janet, I think I can answer your question. The reason it is not OK to criticize MK for anything is that she is perfect. Even her imperfections are perfect. And if anyone takes me seriously on that comment, then I will strongly recommend Prozak.

DG

 

[janetb]

Add my thanks as well to RGirl for a great post!

With tongue firmly planted in cheek Janet, I think I can answer your question. The reason it is not OK to criticize MK for anything is that she is perfect. Even her imperfections are perfect. And if anyone takes me seriously on that comment, then I will strongly recommend Prozak.

DG

Couldn't I just have a beer to drown my sorrows

 

[Mathman]

About criticism, it all depends on whose ox is being gored.

Many GS posters are critical of Sasha's edges. Some find Irina's overuse of the Bielmann position distracting to the effect of the whole program.

On the other hand, we once had a thread whose exact title was, "Why do people hate Michelle Kwan?" Many fans, both regular GS members and out-of-towners who flew in from other boards especially for the occasion, dutifully posted all the reasons why they couldn't stand the b****. None of these reasons had anything to do with skating.

Leading up to nationals one year we had a "Cheering thread for 'Anyone but Michelle'."

Mathman

 

[Doggygirl]

Couldn't I just have a beer to drown my sorrows

You have my permission for an entire six pack. And a shot of Ta Kill Ya to go with it.



DG

 

[Doggygirl]

About criticism, it all depends on whose ox is being gored.

Many GS posters are critical of Sasha's edges. Some find Irina's overuse of the Bielmann position distracting to the effect of the whole program.

On the other hand, we once had a thread whose exact title was, "Why do people hate Michelle Kwan?" Many fans, both regular GS members and out-of-towners who flew in from other boards especially for the occasion, dutifully posted all the reasons why they couldn't stand the b****. None of these reasons had anything to do with skating.

Leading up to nationals one year we had a "Cheering thread for 'Anyone but Michelle'."

Mathman

OK MM - it's Prozak time!! (just kidding)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Now,Rgirl - Will this argument ever end? lol. The almighty spiral! It's as bad as bringing up the SLC scandal where only one country was caught in a collusion. You figure.

Good ballet dancers do excellent spirals with squared hips even in the Black Swan Pas de Deux. More than 9/10 of the senior class ballet dancers do perfect arabesques otherwise they do not get into the company. You should know that.

I think Sasha does her spirals well, too. As for Michelle, a few years back the antiKwans were screaming 'oh who cares about a spiral. It's not an important element.' When Sasha came on the scene, bless her heart, the spiral became important. So the fans of whomever take over. It's not just the Kwanfans.

As for photos, I am not terribly into that for proof of anything. I've seen terrible photos of Sasha and I've seen beautiful ones too. Who knows why anyone is making certain selections. Try to see the skaters live! The wobbles are clearer. Michelle, if it makes you happy, does not have a good Open Fan.

The 'Open Fan' in ballet, of course, needs to be partnered. It goes from forward to side to arabesque, and is not held by any hands, and yes, it needs hip adjustment going into second position. It's a very pretty move both on the stage and on the ice. I have no idea what value is placed on it. I don't think I really care. I just hate that acrobatic Bielman spiral (and spin).

Joe

 

[gezando]

#288 approaching 300

And OT, but yes, that three pointer was something...the kind of something that makes you really admire a player and get a really bad stomache ache at the same time...I still can't believe (but I can) the Pistons lost that by one point...urgh.

OT, or not?? this is related to athletes/ skaters being mentally tough / mentally lragile. Some athletes liike Horry are fearless, they elevate their game to exceptional height when the stake is highest. I am glad the Pistons came back strong with the heart of a champion in #6. LOL Lindsey Hunter said he is no punk. Maybe Sasha Cohen should enroll in the Piston's school of competitivel toughness, since her mental game is a bit fragile.

No kidding. I'm no Pistons fan, but there are two teams in basketball I love to hate: The Lakers, and then the Spurs. But it was frustrating.

You are from Tx??

 

[hockeyfan228]

Sorry, RGirl, on Slutskaya I have to disagree with most of what you said, and I think some of the photos illustrate the opposite. While Slutskaya's deep knee bend is the source of her speed, it is at the expense of her back position, and in the photo, it's impossible to see the pumping she does in her back to get up to speed. Her stroking technique is not fine. It is possible to accomplish a lot more through cross-overs than blade control, telegraphing jumps, and other hallmarks of losing on one side which is gained in another. Other skaters might be able to gain speed, were they to use shoddy technique to gain it.

In the Euros SP and LP, the televised GP events I saw, and in all three phases of Worlds, which I saw live, in order to get into the first back-catch/Bielmann spiral position, she wobbled from edge to edge on the supporting blade as she pulled her leg over her head, and did not achieve a steady edge until her leg had hit position. Again, an awkward transition into a final position, on which she was graded for the result rather than the full movement.

Edited to add: hockeyfan228, who is feeling a bit blue because she almost always agrees with Rgirl.

 

[Mathman]

Not being either a skater or a dancer, I am struggling to keep up. Joe and Rgirl, is this right? Sasha has square hips because she can lift her leg straight back and up on her arabesque spiral. But other skaters, such as Michelle and Nicole Bobek, instead achieve amplitude by rotating their hips, which is not so "classic." Is this right?

Mathman.

 

[mzheng]

In the Euros SP and LP, the televised GP events I saw, and in all three phases of Worlds, which I saw live, in order to get into the first back-catch/Bielmann spiral position, she wobbled from edge to edge on the supporting blade as she pulled her leg over her head, and did not achieve a steady edge until her leg had hit position. Again, an awkward transition into a final position, on which she was graded for the result rather than the full movement.

Yes. I agree. I always felt judge rewarded her for the difficulty of the position (Bielmann). Her transitions between positions in combo spins always looked slopy to me. Never as refined as Sasha and Michelle.

 

[emma]

Not being either a skater or a dancer, I am struggling to keep up. Joe and Rgirl, is this right? Sasha has square hips because she can lift her leg straight back and up on her arabesque spiral. But other skaters, such as Michelle and Nicole Bobek, instead achieve amplitude by rotating their hips, which is not so "classic." Is this right?

Mathman.

And:
OK, now I am totally confused. I can't seem to tell an outside edge from an inside edge. Rgirl, on all of the pictures of Michelle on an "inside edge" except the last one, it looks to me like she is on an outside edge. Am I crazy? (On the third picture, she is kind of on the flat, to me.)

MM

Ok...first: THANKS a ton Rgirl for the detailed analysis and thanks joe for the rebuttal. But, I too am confused.

I think I get the general idea that each of the three compared has different strengths...Sasha's square hips/high leg...Irina deep knees great edge...Michelle in between? Am I right so far?

And there are anatomical differences that explain these strengths (and related weeknesses)? I'm sure training has some impact too...but I'll leave that for a moment.

And: scoring the element: it should be based a some combination of edge and leg hight and hip turn out? and if this is correct, what's the combination, that is by the 'technical' side of things, what points are offered, and by the 'artistic' side of things is there a way to evaluate how points may be distributed too? Here I'm asking by the new CoP rules...and then by your feelings of how it should be judged.

Again...thanks a million for all of this!

 

[bdreampixie]

Not being either a skater or a dancer, I am struggling to keep up. Joe and Rgirl, is this right? Sasha has square hips because she can lift her leg straight back and up on her arabesque spiral. But other skaters, such as Michelle and Nicole Bobek, instead achieve amplitude by rotating their hips, which is not so "classic." Is this right?

Mathman.

Sasha's hips are not squared during her arabesque.

Nicole Bobek has the best position of the three.

 

[dancindiva03]

Not being either a skater or a dancer, I am struggling to keep up. Joe and Rgirl, is this right? Sasha has square hips because she can lift her leg straight back and up on her arabesque spiral. But other skaters, such as Michelle and Nicole Bobek, instead achieve amplitude by rotating their hips, which is not so "classic." Is this right?

Mathman.

Wrong. Both Sasha and Michelle "open up" on their spirals. If Sasha kept her hips square I bet she'd have far less amplitude on her spirals. My coach, who has been teaching for many years and who also was a very well respected judge, says that Cohen's spiral is very much overrated, that it has very little depth of edge and that it is basically a glorified "dog peeingon a hydrant" position because her body is turned out so much. And, she does not usually turn out properly from the hip, she turns out more from the knee, which is incorrect technique and is bad for the knee.

Pretty much the same can be said about Michelle's spirals, she opens up a lot on her spirals in order to get the leg up there. I give her the nod on spirals, ahead of Sasha, because she has better edges and more speed, and also seems to have more security on the COE.

I don't much remember a lot of Nicole's skating, but I do believe that she generally achieved very high amplitude while keeping her hips square, and she managed to keep a fairly deep edge with the leg held very high. In that aspect I would say her spirals were better than Sasha's and Michelle's, but I don't remember how much speed and flow she had so they might beat her in that department.

 

[soogar]

Well you couldn't really tell anything about Nicole's position because she once she reached it, she barely kept her leg up long enough for the audience to appreciate it.

 

[bdreampixie]

I don't much remember a lot of Nicole's skating, but I do believe that she generally achieved very high amplitude while keeping her hips square, and she managed to keep a fairly deep edge with the leg held very high. In that aspect I would say her spirals were better than Sasha's and Michelle's, but I don't remember how much speed and flow she had so they might beat her in that department.

Well, I remember Nicole having a beautiful position but her edges wobbled back and forth a lot and like soogar posted she didn't hold her position very long. So, I would guess that the speed wasn't great, but I never saw her in person.

Btw, thanks for explaining it so well.

 

[Rgirl]

OFF-TOPIC--Sorry, Mods

Gezando,
Thanks for trying to explain your position. Better luck next time.

Don't worry, you'll get the last word in. Is there a medical term for a person who obsessively needs to have the last word? I'm already two posts past my sabbatical, so all the last words about our discussion go to you. Enjoy!

Rgirl, this time REALLY gone until Campbell's.

 

[Rgirl]

The Long Farewell

Janetb and Soogar, I couldn't leave without saying thanks for your thanks. I don't know how many URLs are in there but all I'll say is, Never againl

Mathman: For shame!

To all GSers, have a great summer, every one.

Rgirl

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Last night I attended the Int'l Ballet Competition. I saw lots of arabesques (spirals) in 180 degree positions all with squared hips. It's not necessary to throw the hip out of its socket to get a higher spiral although, that will get you a higher spiral. I believe Bobek did just that and 90 per cent of all figure skaters throw the hip out of its socket. It looks impressive. I believe to do a high spiral with square hips requires a certain amount of flexibility together with the torso carefully lowered downward. It can be done but the skating part of the trick is maintaining that edge and changing that edge are both difficult.

Like the Russian Split is not really a split. It is a character step usually executed by male dancers to show virility(sp). What one gets is a skter/dancer sitting on his rear end and thrusting out his legs. the 'v' of his thrusted legs are sometimes very large and the audience goes wild.

The classic split is the one that your forward leg slides out from your back leg whose foot is in 'club' position. This is how it is done on the floor and should be, imo, in the air as a jump. It doesn't get as much audience appeal as does the Russian split, but then it's figure skating so I guess whatever gets the audience going is important

Just an aside. We are approaching the great Olympics and subvertly or overtly we are raising our blood pressure including me, and I'm not supposed to do that. I can think of at least 5 top ladies for the Olys who will not go for 2010, so this is it for them. If one is a favorite, try to think it's not the end of the world and that nasty poster is plain nasty. Somehow we can take a favorite man's loss easier than the lady. Am I correct?

Joe

 

[emma]

Last night I attended the Int'l Ballet Competition. I saw lots of arabesques (spirals) in 180 degree positions all with squared hips. It's not necessary to throw the hip out of its socket to get a higher spiral although, that will get you a higher spiral. I believe Bobek did just that and 90 per cent of all figure skaters throw the hip out of its socket. It looks impressive. I believe to do a high spiral with square hips requires a certain amount of flexibility together with the torso carefully lowered downward. It can be done but the skating part of the trick is maintaining that edge and changing that edge are both difficult.

Joe

Joe, the dancers/skaters really 'throw the hip out of its socket' or is that just an expression...I'm finding it hard to believe that is actually possible without crashing to the floor/ice...and how do you get it back in???

And in general, I'm still confused about what is considered 'proper' technique..sorry, i'm a bit slow.

About tension...this year is going to be really exciting and really tension filled too....there are just so many amazingly talented - and different from each other - male and female skaters on the seen. Some are not only great but sentimental favorites for their longer journeys and personal difficulties; others are relatively newer but still have history, still others are this olympic cycle newbies...it really is hard to keep the conflicting passions in check. Here's to trying but also just giving a head nod to those momentary unchecked passions...that too is part of the process. I think we can all understand that.

ETA: Joe...I hope you enjoyed the ballet last night!!!!