Rgirl said:
Bdreampixie,
I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree more with your coach. Sasha does not turn out at the knee. She's got internal tibial torsion (a turned in tibia), which makes that impossible. Sasha has great hip external rotation. She doesn't need to turn out at the knee. As you can see from the photos, Sasha's edges are as good as Michelle's and Irina's. What she lacks is speed. As for your coach's "dog peeing on a hydrant comment," plus his/her other incorrect comments about Sasha's spiral, it sounds as if your coach just doesn't like Sasha.
Dancindiva said:
Ummm first of all okay can you at least get the name right? I'm the one who said that about Sasha. And I'm sorry if you disagree with my coach, but really he doesn't have anything against Sasha except that her spirals are not as great as everyone makes them out to be. He is an excellent coach and judge and he knows what he is talking about. And, many coaches at my rink have made similar comments about Sasha's spiral. And no way are her edges as good as Irina's or Michelle's. There are a lot of things about skating that are subjective, but the angle of one's blade to the ice is not one of them, no is the ease upon which one maintains the edge. Sasha has exhibited several times in major competitions that she has problems with her edges.
As for Sasha not turning out from the knee, YES SHE DOES! I've seen it many many many times! When you look at her spread eagles, her knee is not lined up over her toes, she's rotating out from actually just below the knee. Need me to dig out some pictures?
I am sorry about getting the wrong name on the quote; I hope you can accept my apologies.
As for your coaches and others comments about Sasha's spiral, which from the way your post was worded was what all I thought you were talking about. I don't know your coach so of course I'll take your word that s/he likes Sasha just fine. But as for her edges on her spiral--talking spiral only--IMO, her forward outside edge is as good as Michelle's, for FIE is much weaker than Michelle and Irina's, and Irina's edges on her spirals are the best of any skater I've ever seen in every respect: speed, angle toward the ice, and control. However, when you add in the variable of a 180-degree or near 180-degree unassisted leg amplitude with full extension, you change the entire center of gravity from a spiral that's at an amplitude of say 120-degrees, which is my eyeball guess of Michelle and several of the other top skaters. I say you have to look at the whole body, just as jump height affects how judges evaluate a jump even if a comparable jump has the same number of rotations. However, we may have to agree to disagree.
As for Sasha turning out at her knee on her spread eagles, had you said that, I would have agreed. But most skaters do. Skaters train mostly with their hips in parallel position or slightly inwardly rotated during most of their skating, ie, stroking, jumping, basic footwork (rockers, mohawks, etc). Whereas ballet dancers train virtually everything with their hips turned out and as I'm sure you know, you can't really be a soloist or principal dancer with a great ballet company today unless you have 180-degree external rotation from the hip. But the only time skaters use external rotation hip rotation with their skates on the ice is in a spread eagle. Many skaters, even elite ones, can't do them at all. I'd say upwards of 90% of skaters use a combination of hip, knee, and ankle rotation in order to do a spread eagle and it's no crime. The knee does have anywhere from 3 to 5 degrees of safe rotation, meaning external rotation without risking injuring of the knee meniscus (cartilage) or ligaments. The amount of external rotation at the ankle is much more variable.
The thing Sasha is able to do that most skaters can is use those few degrees of turn-out at her knee on her spread eagle while keeping her knee 100% extended, which for her is a few degrees hyperextended. As I said before, most skaters--and I'll add, most females, who tend to have less external hip rotation than men--bend their knee slightly in turning out the knee during the spread eagle. Bending the knee allows for additional external rotation. Michelle does this, which is not a criticism in the least; she's simply doing what Sasha and other top skaters do: Making the best of their anatomical limitations. I used Michelle because there's sure to be a photo of her doing a spread eagle; in fact i recall doing a more in-depth analysis of Michelle's spread eagle, which some people were criticizing, ie, "There are some moves some skaters just shouldn't do," and using the analysis to defend Michelle's SE. Also, just about every other female skater who does a spread eagle turns out at the hip, knee, and ankle. True, too much turn-out at the knee in a spread eagle is bad for the skaters knee. If the skater doesn't have enough rotation at the hip to get her most of the way there and needs more than 5 or 6 degrees of knee external rotation to achieve an SE, a good coach would take the SE would of the skaters MITF after a good year's worth of training had been made to improve the skater's hip rotation.
As for Sasha, given her internal tibial torsion, the aesthetics of Sasha's spread eagle is, IMO, quite a feat. However, you'll also notice that she rarely does them, which I hope she continues. Given her anatomy, the SE still puts a lot of stress on her knees and ankles. Also, just for the record, many/some (I really don't know) have read the multiple posts in which I analyze and criticize Sasha's technical problems up the anterior and down the posterior. Sometimes I love her skating; sometimes I can hardly bear to watch it. With you being rather new, just FYI.
The main skaters of a group of maybe 10 (I'm going off the top of my head) I've seen do SEs with 180-degree rotation from the hip are Brian Boitano (the best, IMO), Paul Wylie, and Ilia Kulik. The rest are men, too. I've always found it odd that men are the ones usually born with greater external hip rotation than women. You'd think that from an evolutionary POV, women could use it more for child bearing. There's probably a good reason, though I doubt most women in the throes of natural childbirth would believe it, lol.
Anyway, we still may have to agree to disagree, but again, I thought you were saying Sasha turned out from her knee in her spiral, which as I said, she has no reason to and doesn't. Had spread eagles been specified, I would have agreed with you 100%--which is not a criticism. After all, I'm the one who thought Bpixiedreams wrote the post, plus you should see some of the goobers I've made, even worse than the ones you've already seen!
Rgirl
