Discussion on Versatility | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Discussion on Versatility

...... So basically he is versatile but within his strength spectrum because doing program you did not enjoy for the sake of being versatile does nothing good accepts fulfilling people's expectation.

Same with Hanyu and Chan who all has their own trademark skating style already and they strive at that style. If this trademark considered not versatile in some people's opinion then better don't argue on it and direct the argument by putting down the skaters interpretation such as variation movement just because you don't see it because there is a reason you are not a fan of that skaters is it not?

IMHO these skaters strive best in their own style and they excel at it, I mean we are talking about top skaters of the world, as long as they don't repeat the same song for 5 seasons straight then I don't see any problem in them sticking to the style they enjoyed the most and able to produce memorable programs.
......

Very much agree.

I mean, yes, basically the versatility thing is something like a bonus to me. If the skater does that and himself/herself feels comfortable to do that, it's certainly brilliant. If not, it's actually not bad to see a skater to perform his best enjoyable style.

Speaking about Chan, I always have an impression to him - formal, traditional and textbook-liked postures and lines. No matter what kind of music he chooses, he always looks very typical and traditional to me. He's very elegant in my mind.
 
Oh i see, a Fernandez fan who likes to bash Yuzuru, but is ignoring the fact that Fernandez is doing the same clown style since years. Okay then....


Please delete this thread bc it's inappropriately biased
 
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No-one picked on poor eppen because he (she?) said Javier isn't one trick pony (regardless of what they think about this statement). No-one even mentioned Javi in the following posts.
Agree, it was Mr. Eppen who has been trying to praise Mr. Fernandez's monotonous style by downplaying Mr. Hanyu's versatility. Personally I do not like some of Mr. Hanyu's programs and his gaudy taste for costumes, but in no way I'd say all he has done for the FS world is "standard and generic". And how can anyone put PW and Rachmaninov on the same sentence concerning style? Such a good laugh.

Everybody picked on poor eppen (in the other thread, about choreographer x skater golden match) because of his ridiculous statement over Yuzuru's programs. Different things, you know?
I am sad that I was late to the party. I love all the videos you have done, with Mr. Hanyu's programs and various musics with different style. It shows how mismatched these choreography can be with different music. I respect to Mr. Hanyu and his choreographers for creating such interesting programs.

Poor eppen is totally free not to like any of Yuzuru's programs, but to state they are all the same and that PW could be set on Rach and make no difference... Well, poor eppen can state whatever he wants, but if one poster makes a ridiculous statement (Patrick can't use his edges! Yuzuru has no TR in his programs! Javi has no performer skills!), one has also to bear other posters' reaction.
You killed it.

But since you want to drag Javi in this, here you are Guys and Dolls on Chaplin*!
Feel free to think whatever you want about it :D
https://sendvid.com/17eidyie
I guess we can all agree that Mr. Fernandez skate to all of his programs with the same style. I do not say this is good or bad, judges do not care about the creativity and daring side of performance as much as audience do. Mr. Fernandez can skate to same style for 10 years but as long as he is judges' favorite, it does not matter how much audience complain: "I have seen this from him last year, and the year before that."
Judges do no care that much, mind you.
 
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I guess the definition of versatility is in the eye of the beholder ;)
Yes, and your version of versatility is very questionable. However it is your personal preference, not the majority of how people feel.

In the past 5-6 seasons, Hanyu has never - IMHO - done but serious and more serious routines,
So Tchaikovsky, Scriabin and Chopin are not serious programs. Swan lake, Etude and Ballade were written to be light-hearted. Such ignorance of classical music repertoire.

both SP and FS (Parisienne walkways could have been set to, say, Rachamaninoff easily enough).
This comment itself is enough to be called a joke. I guess Gary Moore and Rachmaninov would have felt very much offended. And not to mention Mr. Buttle who choreographed it.

His vocabulary is pretty standard figure skating stuff and there is really no variation of movement whatsoever, Hanyu feels always the same whatever his theme or music is.
Are you describing Mr. Fernandez and just copy paste Mr. Hanyu's name onto your sentence?

Chan has tried jazz/lighthearted twice in SP (however, Mack the Knife is a murder ballad and doing a "fun" program to it is just plain wrong) and has tried tango once in SP. In FS Chan is always dead serious with classical style music. He has a very good lyrical style, but does not seem to be able to shed it to do something else.
I'd take Mr. Chan over Mr. Fernandez any day, given that he has superior edge work and flow and he does not have to rely on armchoreography to make the audience wow.

Javi has done serious opera FS on Verdi (2011-2), serious Zorro SP (2012-3, but does this count as Latin?!), no pantomime lighthearted SP/FSs (I Love Paris 2011-2, Satan etc. 2013-4; Peter Gunn 2013-4). His comedic stuff ranges from slapstick of EX like Aerobics Class, to a character driven slapsticky Pirates to rom-com of Chaplin and more classical opera buffa character in the Barber of Seville. Black Betty is harder to define - but fun with one mime bit (which kind of accentuates the lyric at that point). Last season's programs I particularly appreciate because they took distinct dance styles (flamenco and jazz dance) and put them to skating and maintained the style almost 100%. In Guys and Dolls the mime in the first part is actually lifted from the movie choreo and the dice section compliments the lyrics plus is again a straight reference to the movie (and gives him a few seconds of rest).
In short, in all those year, the theme for Mr. Fernandez to portray has always been: comical and energetic clown.

In addition to Danny Boy (Worlds EX), Javi did some EX programs in the Japanese Fantasy on Ice tour this summer which were quite different from his usual repertoire (a J-pop crossover style version of Polovetsian Dances and Yoshida Brothers' "Barcelona") as well as Metallica's Nothing Else Matters in Kings on Ice tour.
In which Mr. Fernandez look like a bad copy of Mr. Chan. But don't get angry, this is my personal opinion.

They were ok performances and maybe could have gotten still better with a bit of time and more work.
They are forgettable performances and there was nothing I remember from them, just a fact that he should stick to his comical style.

Javi has probably has the potential to do just about anything, but if he does not feel comfortable with the theme/style, it will probably not end up in a competition programme (and this probably applies to just about every skater).
Mr. Fernandez might have the potential to do something else in competition but he and his team refused that possibility per my guess that had Mr. Fernandez skated to something out of his zone, he might have messed up a lot and his weakness will show even more.

Don't get me wrong, I like Mr. Fernandez. I am glad he is doing well. Pointing out his monotonous style in all those years does not mean I like him less. Top skaters have this luxury of staying stagnant for years but still get the appreciation from the judges. It does not matter if they do not change style, judges care less than audience care. This is still a sport, not an art form.
 
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But who knows..It is possible that Javi's elvis lp will be totally different with figaro or guys and dolls lp. Or maybe he will choose classical /serious music for oly season.. Nobody knows future things:biggrin: like his sps. Personally I think this area's top male skaters have each
distinct individualities and I appreciated. But at the same time, likes and dislikes are so random.
 
It makes me wonder to be honest is being energetic and presenting a light-hearted, up-beat program consistently something to be looked down on? Or something that is looked down on?

It's like the standard is to be able to execute a varied number of classical or deep or refined programs, but every now again shake things up with something more light-hearted or fast-paced. However Javi has found his place in delivering the more comical, showy characters. There's the assumption that he can't deliver a classical program convincingly and if he can't do that well....he's just a clown. It seems like that's what has happened to him.
 
But who knows..It is possible that Javi's elvis lp will be totally different with figaro or guys and dolls lp. Or maybe he will choose classical /serious music for oly season.. Nobody knows future things:biggrin: like his sps. Personally I think this area's top male skaters have each
distinct individualities and I appreciated. But at the same time, likes and dislikes are so random.
Mr. Fernandez and his team have created a brand/image for him, it is hard to walk away from that. If they want to drastically change his style, they could have done it much earlier. If they do it now, it is brave, but again it does no guarantee that Mr. Fernandez will feel comfortable with a too new style and do it well right away. The coaching team has to consider the risk of being accepted by the judges as well.
I do not say Mr. Fernandez will not change his style, but in my opinion it is logical and it makes sense why his team has been choosing the same style for him for all these years and possibly the next 2 years as well.
Does it worth it to show your possible weakness in skating skills and lack of versatile presentation, while you can still get the same or even higher score with what you are familiar with.
If It were someone in Mr. Fernandez's team, I would recommend him to do the same style as he is doing now.
 
It makes me wonder to be honest is being energetic and presenting a light-hearted, up-beat program consistently something to be looked down on? Or something that is looked down on?

It's like the standard is to be able to execute a varied number of classical or deep or refined programs, but every now again shake things up with something more light-hearted or fast-paced. However Javi has found his place in delivering the more comical, showy characters. There's the assumption that he can't deliver a classical program convincingly and if he can't do that well....he's just a clown. It seems like that's what has happened to him.
I don't agree with this. Look up many old performances by Mr Kurt Browning, I think light-hearted, up-beat and funny style is pretty much appreciated.
 
Versatility is something that we find a lot in our Sport, but skaters are also often criticized for it.

Look at Amber, she skates her Clowns different and people call her out for it. ;)

I think that skaters who offer a lot of different things have it much harder to please people, as they they are often compared to those who once tried it first. Its the paradox of complaint about boring skates, while still living in the past and not accepting different interpretations.
 
Eppen here, not feeling offended or "poor" at all (and am female; thank you for the sympthetic comments, though), after all I'm working in the academic world where discussions can actually be much harder and harsher (however, usually based on arguments and not just sentiment).

I also do think I have a right to expressing my opinions just like everyone else. And my opinion in all its sincerity is that apart from the Chopin SP (particularly the first version without two quads) I still get bored watching Hanyu after about a minute because he is always feels exactly the same (even with different choreographers). I'm sure that he feels different in performing the various pieces, but this is what I don't get from his performances. From my point of view, love is truly also blind for those who think Hanyu is versatile.

Hanyu is undoubtedly a great athlete with great jumping and spinning skills, but I sincerely think that his performance abilities are not at the same level. He seems committed enough for his themes, but somehow (again, for me) they always feel flat and repetitive. He has a weak upper body with poorly articulating arms - this was particularly evident in his younger days, but he has gotten better with age. He tends to drop his arms and crouch forward especially towards the end of the FS programs (SP not so much). The long second jump secuence usually contains only a litte bit of choreo and expression. His most effective vehicles for expression are step and choreo sequences where he lets rip.

Skating programmes are usually very similar for every skater and this is because of the way they need to be constructed. They are created to gain maximum points, to hightlight the best parts of the skater and hide their weaknesses - they are after all intended for competitions where everyone tries to beat everyone else. So, the choreograhies reflect the technical and performance skills of the skater more than anything else. Few skating shoreographers (if any in reality?) have distinct styles because of this. They are first and foremost creating patterns that match the skater and not unique pieces of art. In the dance world choreopgraphers set the tone and the dancers do what the choreographers want to do, a classical ballerina probably has to be able to do modern pieces. Plus the skaters have to feel comfortable with the music and costumes to perform more easily under pressure. Everyone has a tendency to want to be on the safe side and that is also part of the reason why we get so much repetition in musical styles and themes.

In addition, each skater has usually a sequence of elements which gets varied relatively little during their careers, particularly the difficult jump passes in the beginning of the programme. The most difficult jumps tend to have fixed approaches which do not get varied a lot, the rest can be done in different manners. You also have to think about placing the jumps in different parts of the ice to gain points, to set the pattern with enough changes of direction etc. Then you need to have a small break of sorts in the middle to get ready for the second series of jump passes. There's very often a wish to end the program pompously. In addition, certain non-listed elements (spirals, spreadeagle, Ina Bauer) are used to accentuate very similar kinds of moments in the music (the swelling violins come to mind first). The music cut has to somehow reflect these technical points and it depends on the skills of the choreographer and the skater how well they are able to mask the breaks and incorporate the elements into the choreography.

Chan, Hanyu and Javi are some of the very few single skaters who are able to handle both top technical difficulty and choreo more or less seamlessly and I like that very much in all three of them. The rest have still to rise to that level of excellence. In their cases, versatily would mean to me the ability to vary body movement, ability to skate to different kinds of rhythms so that it actually looks like you're skating to a rhythm and not the melody only, etc. Showing that they can really do different kinds of styles, extending the artistic ambition in addition to the technical content. Chan's most wonderful contribution is the continuous movement idea behind his choreographies which was really cool to watch particularly in the pre-Sochi years.

The vid on the Guys and Dolls program set to the Chaplin music is a good example of how things commonly work: the beginning fits almost perfectly, even the accent in the middle of the step sequence is in place and the beginning of the second part with the break is also set to slow part in the Chaplin which is okish (and they coincide because that's where the break has to be in order to do the second jump pass section). Both programs have the almost the same tech content in the beginning with the quads where Javi has been using the same approaches for ever, so not surprised that it all fits. However, the 3A-2T combo in between had nothing to do with music. In the second part the unison of the choreo and music goes all awry because in Guys and Dolls, it's fast and rhythmic to a jazz beat whereas in Chaplin the music is all slow and swelling with longer glides etc. The sad bit is that a great many skating programmes look like this: no connections between music, movement and performance.

I became a Javi fan with Black Betty and Barber of Seville in 2014 partly because for once there was a rock music piece that was not a) Scorpions or b) Metallica or c) some other iffy cliched piece. And partly because Javi was able to skate to the rhythm without any problems, making it look pretty much believable (some of the arm movements are way too pretty, though). And partly because there was a clear difference between Betty and Barber stylistically. And that you do not see every day, not necessarily even every season.

I never liked that much what Wilson did for him earlier, the Chaplin programme has just too many (weird) cuts in the music, too many stationary moments and some odd choreo bits that they never fixed, the 2013-4 programmes were just awful (Peter Gunn particularly). But for some reason the past two seasons have been very good and I sincerely hope they will get some sense in the Elvis program. Which I wait with fear and trepidation because a medley from an artist/band does not mean a theme, but usually just a mishmash of bits and pieces that make no sense as a whole, just like any medley of random songs. Elvis and Michael Jackson are kind of borderline cases in that respect, but do not like the idea much this far.

And the Latinness of the Zorro SP. Yes, the character is Latin, obviously, but the music and the skating are (apart from the first 10-15 seconds) mostly suited for a classical piece. The same also applies to the Barber of Seville - the character is Spanish, but the music is classic opera buffa with movement to match with no "Latin" in it.

And, yes, also I would be very curious to see how Javi would handle a heavy classical music theme. I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen though...

Add: Just only now watched the PW on Rachmaninoff and it looks better than the original actually... :biggrin: PW is bluesy piece with a melancholy feel and Hanyu is doing it partly as if it were heavy metal and partly his movement would suit a classical piece better. Neither approach really fits the music in my opinion.

E
 
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I think every great skater has own style. And when they are skating they transform every movement to their style. This is the reason why all the choreographies seem a bit similar despite the fact those are different. Regardless of who is the choreographer.
 
Eppen here, not feeling offended or "poor" at all (and am female; thank you for the sympthetic comments, though), after all I'm working in the academic world where discussions can actually be much harder and harsher (however, usually based on arguments and not just sentiment).

I also do think I have a right to expressing my opinions just like everyone else. And my opinion in all its sincerity is that apart from the Chopin SP (particularly the first version without two quads) I still get bored watching Hanyu after about a minute because he is always feels exactly the same (even with different choreographers). I'm sure that he feels different in performing the various pieces, but this is what I don't get from his performances. From my point of view, love is truly also blind for those who think Hanyu is versatile.

Hanyu is undoubtedly a great athlete with great jumping and spinning skills, but I sincerely think that his performance abilities are not at the same level. He seems committed enough for his themes, but somehow (again, for me) they always feel flat and repetitive. He has a weak upper body with poorly articulating arms - this was particularly evident in his younger days, but he has gotten better with age. He tends to drop his arms and crouch forward especially towards the end of the FS programs (SP not so much). The long second jump secuence usually contains only a litte bit of choreo and expression. His most effective vehicles for expression are step and choreo sequences where he lets rip.

Skating programmes are usually very similar for every skater and this is because of the way they need to be constructed. They are created to gain maximum points, to hightlight the best parts of the skater and hide their weaknesses - they are after all intended for competitions where everyone tries to beat everyone else. So, the choreograhies reflect the technical and performance skills of the skater more than anything else. Few skating shoreographers (if any in reality?) have distinct styles because of this. They are first and foremost creating patterns that match the skater and not unique pieces of art. In the dance world choreopgraphers set the tone and the dancers do what the choreographers want to do, a classical ballerina probably has to be able to do modern pieces. Plus the skaters have to feel comfortable with the music and costumes to perform more easily under pressure. Everyone has a tendency to want to be on the safe side and that is also part of the reason why we get so much repetition in musical styles and themes.

In addition, each skater has usually a sequence of elements which gets varied relatively little during their careers, particularly the difficult jump passes in the beginning of the programme. The most difficult jumps tend to have fixed approaches which do not get varied a lot, the rest can be done in different manners. You also have to think about placing the jumps in different parts of the ice to gain points, to set the pattern with enough changes of direction etc. Then you need to have a small break of sorts in the middle to get ready for the second series of jump passes. There's very often a wish to end the program pompously. In addition, certain non-listed elements (spirals, spreadeagle, Ina Bauer) are used to accentuate very similar kinds of moments in the music (the swelling violins come to mind first). The music cut has to somehow reflect these technical points and it depends on the skills of the choreographer and the skater how well they are able to mask the breaks and incorporate the elements into the choreography.

Chan, Hanyu and Javi are some of the very few single skaters who are able to handle both top technical difficulty and choreo more or less seamlessly and I like that very much in all three of them. The rest have still to rise to that level of excellence. In their cases, versatily would mean to me the ability to vary body movement, ability to skate to different kinds of rhythms so that it actually looks like you're skating to a rhythm and not the melody only, etc. Showing that they can really do different kinds of styles, extending the artistic ambition in addition to the technical content. Chan's most wonderful contribution is the continuous movement idea behind his choreographies which was really cool to watch particularly in the pre-Sochi years.

The vid on the Guys and Dolls program set to the Chaplin music is a good example of how things commonly work: the beginning fits almost perfectly, even the accent in the middle of the step sequence is in place and the beginning of the second part with the break is also set to slow part in the Chaplin which is okish (and they coincide because that's where the break has to be in order to do the second jump pass section). Both programs have the almost the same tech content in the beginning with the quads where Javi has been using the same approaches for ever, so not surprised that it all fits. However, the 3A-2T combo in between had nothing to do with music. In the second part the unison of the choreo and music goes all awry because in Guys and Dolls, it's fast and rhythmic to a jazz beat whereas in Chaplin the music is all slow and swelling with longer glides etc. The sad bit is that a great many skating programmes look like this: no connections between music, movement and performance.

I became a Javi fan with Black Betty and Barber of Seville in 2014 partly because for once there was a rock music piece that was not a) Scorpions or b) Metallica or c) some other iffy cliched piece. And partly because Javi was able to skate to the rhythm without any problems, making it look pretty much believable (some of the arm movements are way too pretty, though). And partly because there was a clear difference between Betty and Barber stylistically. And that you do not see every day, not necessarily even every season.

I never liked that much what Wilson did for him earlier, the Chaplin programme has just too many (weird) cuts in the music, too many stationary moments and some odd choreo bits that they never fixed, the 2013-4 programmes were just awful (Peter Gunn particularly). But for some reason the past two seasons have been very good and I sincerely hope they will get some sense in the Elvis program. Which I wait with fear and trepidation because a medley from an artist/band does not mean a theme, but usually just a mishmash of bits and pieces that make no sense as a whole, just like any medley of random songs. Elvis and Michael Jackson are kind of borderline cases in that respect, but do not like the idea much this far.

And the Latinness of the Zorro SP. Yes, the character is Latin, obviously, but the music and the skating are (apart from the first 10-15 seconds) mostly suited for a classical piece. The same also applies to the Barber of Seville - the character is Spanish, but the music is classic opera buffa with movement to match with no "Latin" in it.

And, yes, also I would be very curious to see how Javi would handle a heavy classical music theme. I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen though...

E

There's nothing wrong with your opinion. It is your preference after all. What makes it interesting is that I'm a total opposite than you as I still see Javi's program as repetitive and never watch his program more than twice (even though I adore his smooth skating) despite understanding his style now~ while I don't mind watching Hanyu's program many times.

But that doesn't mean that I will flame you for not seeing what I'm seeing and neither can you say "love is truly also blind for those who think Hanyu is versatile." when it is a matter of personal preference. We can't force everybody to agree on the same thing and said those words to people who don't agree with you. Why don't we just nod and be respectful instead of trying to explore every single point on why people should see that Hanyu is not that good in his interpretation compared to what people believe. Some people love Hanyu and some people don't, just the same as some people love Javi and some people don't. We don't have to put down other's taste.

I hope you will see Hanyu in different light in the future with any of his future programs as I am waiting for that moment to appreciate Javi's program that might click with me in the future. :)
 
I wanted to say I agree with Violet Bliss here that you have to also consider other skaters' exhibitions if you want to talk about versatility.

Patrick's "Esqualo" is a splendid program, and even his Beatles' EX which is now his SP is different from his usual 'classic' stuff. Shall we also discuss his group programs? "Sound of Silence" was a very emotional piece and Patrick was able to blend his powerful skating with the styles of Jeff Buttle and Elvis Stojko. It was a stunning number.

Then there are his other ex programs like the fun and funny Don't Worry, Be Happy, the Elvis-like Mannish Boy, the I Need A Dollar with its schticks and tricks, the suave and jazzy Steppin' Out, etc. And, with Moon Dance, he remains the only skater to have danced with a mop!

Of course, the king of versatility is Kurt Browning, who has decades of show performances. I also love Lambiel, and an honorable mention of Verner.
 
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"The most difficult jumps tend to have fixed approaches which do not get varied a lot, the rest can be done in different manners." Eppen changed her approach it seems from "yuzu has no versatility" to "i find yuzu boring and anyway no-one has versatility because they need to follow fixed pattern" XDDD OKAY then
 
This is sad. I came here expecting to find more Golden Choreographer and Skater greats, and I find a bunch of people being mean. All because one poster, Eppen, did not agree that Javier is a one*trick pony. I agree with Eppen. Javier is far more versatile than his detractors say. I don't care what you Javi detractors believe. But why do you want to spoil things for others?
:hijacked: big time.
Dear, how are these talking about Javi and his versatile ability?
One
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And technically the whole page 1-2-3

Get your facts straight, Yuzuru's fans are just making fun of Yuzuru himself by adding other music to his perfromances. No one was bashing poor Eppen about Javi until your accusation. ;)
 
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Ranran, just tried to show that it works both ways - the comments in the beginning of the thread were pretty silly for the most part.

There are some almost standardized comments regardng Javi, the "same FS" is one of them, the "no skating skills" is the second most common one. I just find it funny that people comment on Javi or Cappellini/Lanotte doing the same kind of programmes - happy and funny ones usually - when the opposite (ie skaters doing serious themes year in year out) is much more common...

I hope that Hanyu will do justice to Let's Go Crazy - the Prince I would have chosen for a skating programme (but for FS and just as it is, uncut).

e
 
"The most difficult jumps tend to have fixed approaches which do not get varied a lot, the rest can be done in different manners." Eppen changed her approach it seems from "yuzu has no versatility" to "i find yuzu boring and anyway no-one has versatility because they need to follow fixed pattern" XDDD OKAY then

Those are some of the basic premises for the programs which inform the outcome. If you watch Yuzu's FS start from previous years you will notice that the pattern he skates is almost identical with the jumps in certain places and the steps directly preceding them just about the same. What happens between can vary and that sets the tone of the piece and are the places where versatility can appear in different kinds of movement for different music styles. I think I was from the start more concerned with stylistic versatility than technical versatility.

E
 
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