Discussion on Versatility

[andromache]

Good Post! It leads me to this question, when is a good time for a skater to try a new genre, who would you like to see try something different? And what is it?
I'd like to see Marin Honda try a rock and roll program! But that's just me, a spectator saying it. It might not be in her best interests to do that.

I guess I think the best times for a skater to take risks and change things up is either when they are on top or extremely dominant (like Evgenia, Papadakis/Cizeron) or when they're losing despite overall technical proficiency (Shibs, Chock/Bates...we see this less in singles/pairs, where PCS is more directly related to technical difficulty.)

I think when skaters are on top we as fans (or at least me, anyway) will have increased respect for skaters who seek to challenge themselves once they've defeated the rest of the field. Coasting along and doing what you do best is fine, but skaters can challenge themselves and develop as performers by trying new styles. That's why I want to see Evgenia and P/C doing different styles. ESPECIALLY since they're so young, too young to get typecast in particular types of programs.

Meanwhile skaters who are struggling technically can and probably should stick with whatever they're most comfortable with.

This thread started with "Hanyu can't do this, can't do that, isn't this, is not doing that...." and continues with "but Javier is all this and more.."
What do you expect? It's a bashing thread, not a "constructive" thread

There's a difference between criticism and bashing. Sure I disagree with OP's criticism, but I don't think the post was overtly cruel or negative like a "basher."

And even if it was. There's still a lot of constructive stuff to be said on the topic of versatility.

 

[Interspectator]

Switching from Male to Female skaters, Radionova got typecast as the Drama Queen in her previous seasons, but she's a skater I think has the potential to skate to all kinds of music.

 

[andromache]

Well, Hanyu has done programs that are closer to Fernandez's than Fernandez has done to Hanyu's. So the track records and variety speak for themselves.

Oops, I forgot that even making a friendly joke at Yuzu's expense by implying he might not be perfect at something (along with Javi) would make some ubers way too defensive.

 

[charmblade]

I guess I think the best times for a skater to take risks and change things up is either when they are on top or extremely dominant (like Evgenia, Papadakis/Cizeron) or when they're losing despite overall technical proficiency (Shibs, Chock/Bates...we see this less in singles/pairs, where PCS is more directly related to technical difficulty.)

I think when skaters are on top we as fans (or at least me, anyway) will have increased respect for skaters who seek to challenge themselves once they've defeated the rest of the field. Coasting along and doing what you do best is fine, but skaters can challenge themselves and develop as performers by trying new styles. That's why I want to see Evgenia and P/C doing different styles. ESPECIALLY since they're so young, too young to get typecast in particular types of programs.

Meanwhile skaters who are struggling technically can and probably should stick with whatever they're most comfortable with.

I also think this year would be a good one to try new styles because it's a pre-Olympic year. Play around with a new genre now, and then for the Olympic season you either have more styles under your belt or you can go back and do something more familiar.

 

[alia jackson]

Yuzu can go crazily hilarious

- Jason's Cotton eye joe
- Machida's Don’t Stop Me #1, #2, #3
- Kanako's
- Yuzuki dance #1, #2
- Pooh's dance, there's actually a better angle fancam that i cannot find now.

Want him to try ex to Billie Jean incorporate the moonwalk and hiptrust or some disco number

and waiting for the return of Yuzuki imitating Maia

 

[Interspectator]

A cautionary tale on versatility is the Tale of Maxim Kovtun. I respect him for trying two very different programs last year, they were weird, entertaining and had potential, but the inability to pull it off dropped him waaaay down in the standings.
That, and popping his jumps. The world was not ready for the kind of versatility he wanted to offer them. https://youtu.be/3gGy3lOlrGk?t=2m40s

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

A cautionary tale on versatility is the Tale of Maxim Kovtun. I respect him for trying two very different programs last year, they were weird, entertaining and had potential, but the inability to pull it off dropped him waaaay down in the standings.
That, and popping his jumps. The world was not ready for the kind of versatility he wanted to offer them. https://youtu.be/3gGy3lOlrGk?t=2m40s

I'll always pull for Maxim! I can't explain why but I just love that guy and have fun watching him skate.

But I'll agree he's one of those that seems almost forced to skate outside of his comfort zone. Maybe due to those whispers a la Gracie.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Oops, I forgot that even making a friendly joke at Yuzu's expense by implying he might not be perfect at something (along with Javi) would make some ubers way too defensive.

Excuse you, but it didn't come off as "friendly."

 

[Marin]

Excuse you, but it didn't come off as "friendly."

Now we know why Ms. eppen is so harsh on Hanyu, if we look at the post back in August
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...er-Fernandez&p=1468953&viewfull=1#post1468953

Its kind of mean from Yuzu you know .

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Oops, I forgot that even making a friendly joke at Yuzu's expense by implying he might not be perfect at something (along with Javi) would make some ubers way too defensive.

And just jumping to "defensive uber!" when someone doesn't agree with you makes this thread so much more constructive

And even if it was meant as I joke, I don't get your previous comment. These 'skate another skaters program' comparisons only go so far... pretty sure Javi couldn't skate any of Yuzu's LPs. Because as far as I know, he wouldn't be able to do the layback IB. So he's already out, without taking any musicality and versatility into account.
If we only talk about the styles of programs... Javi would do quite well with PW IMO, Yuzu would nail Black Betty. They would of course do it differently, but I don't see any disaster in that. It completely depends on the specific programs you think are 'Yuzu programs' and 'Javi programs' (or is Javi program = his LPs? What's a typical Yuzu program then though?)

 

[Sorrento]

After reading of some comments here I think... technically speaking- bot Javi and Yuzu can skate each other's programs. They would look different because both have a different performance style. Laybacks and other little tricks aside.
But what I find especially interesting is that Javi's performance style is more introverted compared to Yuzuru's. When Yuzu does that Ina Bauer he wears his heart on a sleeve, it's the most emotional part of his performances and he is usually very emotionally invested in his skate. Javi may be cool and sexy but he is not that emotional to me overall. And that is quite interesting because Javi and Yuzu have a dufferent kind of personality when it comes to their day to day life, Javi is more otgoing and relaxed and Yuzu is more introverted.

Versatily speaking. To me Davis-White were very versatile. I've been watching them though the years and they managed to come with different styles and routines, loved that about them.

 

[andromache]

Switching from Male to Female skaters, Radionova got typecast as the Drama Queen in her previous seasons, but she's a skater I think has the potential to skate to all kinds of music.

Agreed, especially if she gets better choreography. Then again, I think the majority of the Russian ladies - or at least Anna, Yulia, Elena, and Evgenia - are fairly versatile in that I can imagine them skating well to most kinds of music. I think Yulia has done the best job doing different kinds of programs and not letting herself become stuck as the serious lady being the little girl in the red coat. Not all of her programs have been a total success style-wise such as last year's SP, but I think it also developed well over the course of the season and in the end helped her develop more range.

 

[solani]

Hmm ... I think that both Yuzuru and Javier are very extroverted skaters. Calling Javier's performance style introverted ... I don't know. Not in my opinion. Javier is a very natural skater imo, so maybe this looks like his body language isn't that outgoing, he's smooth and easy.
I think it's all about the type of skater they want to be. We know that Yuzuru is very particular about the kind of programs/music he wants to skate to. I think he has very specific artistic expectations of himself that he wants to fulfill. Javier is different to me in that aspect - he wants to entertain and he's looking for the right programs/music to do that. So I think that Javier is more of an actor. Not that he's not creative, but he f.e. trusts David Wilson to find a good outlet for him. I'm sure that Javier could do a very good lyrical program, but would it be better than a very good entertaining program? Probably not. And if you want to entertain the audience like Javier wants to a lyrical program isn't the right choice anyway. And he's been trusting David Wilson with his free programs to an extend that I don't think Yuzuru would be happy to at this point in his career.
My point is - I think that both are versatile and have been doing great programs over the last years. I don't think that we're going to see bad programs from them anytime soon. Yuzuru is exploring his own artistical vision and Javier is exploring the path down sometimes funny, but always entertaining programs and he's going to be provided with great ideas/programs so that we're not going to get bored.

And I think that versatility isn't that important in figure skating anyway. Figure skaters are allowed to express themselves, show their personalities in a way that dancers aren't allowed to. That's what I like about figure skating. It's true that I also sometimes think that a skater should try something new, but that's often because I don't particularly like what they're doing at that point. Exception right now is Capellini/Lanotte, I like them, but right now I'm simply bored with them. She could have at least changed the length of her skirt or something.

 

[lakeside]

I'm sure that Javier could do a very good lyrical program, but would it be better than a very good entertaining program? Probably not. And if you want to entertain the audience like Javier wants to a lyrical program isn't the right choice anyway. And he's been trusting David Wilson with his free programs to an extend that I don't think Yuzuru would be happy to at this point in his career.

Well, let Fernandez do a good lyrical program first. I’ve seen Hanyu done good entertaining program like Parisienne Walkways and good lyrical programs like Chopin Ballade No. 1 and Requiem of Heaven and Earth. I’ve never seen Fernandez done any lyrical programs. I hope he’ll give it a try before he retires.

 

[Skater Boy]

And just jumping to "defensive uber!" when someone doesn't agree with you makes this thread so much more constructive

And even if it was meant as I joke, I don't get your previous comment. These 'skate another skaters program' comparisons only go so far... pretty sure Javi couldn't skate any of Yuzu's LPs. Because as far as I know, he wouldn't be able to do the layback IB. So he's already out, without taking any musicality and versatility into account.
If we only talk about the styles of programs... Javi would do quite well with PW IMO, Yuzu would nail Black Betty. They would of course do it differently, but I don't see any disaster in that. It completely depends on the specific programs you think are 'Yuzu programs' and 'Javi programs' (or is Javi program = his LPs? What's a typical Yuzu program then though?)

I guess everyone is versatile but with their own stamp???? I mean I honestly don't find Davis and White really that versatile or at least convincing but on the other hand maybe they were vesatile because I never got their stamp. I don't necessarily like their interpretations but Virtue and Moir could do extremes it appeared. Personally I thought All Michelle Kwan's performance started looking alike but.

 

[tulosai]

I haven't read all of this and I see from what I've skimmed that it's primarily descended into comparing and contrasting mens skaters. I don't watchmen's skaters much so I can't speak to any of that, but I did want to quickly make a more general point about the stated topic.

I think there's a fine line between a skater knowing and playing to their own strengths and a skater never taking any risks whatsoever. I think it's absolutely essential that skaters know and play to their strengths, and I think even when they are taking risks and stretching themselves and trying to be versitile, they need to do so in a way where they can still highlight their strengths in some way. I'll go with some ice dance examples since maybe it's a little less contentious than this Hanyu/Fernandez war that seems to be going on.

I think a good example of a couple who took a 'risk' at least in doing something outside their comfort zone was when Davis and white did the LP tango. For most of the season it wasn't truly great, and a lot of things about it left something to be desired. Part of how they made it better was improving the things they weren't great at, but part of how they sold it was by making sure the things they were great at they were still doing- sharp, clean, big movements, speed, ice coverage, and so on. No one's ever going to say it was their favorite dance Davis and White ever did but they made it their own and made it successful.

Then there are skaters who take a risk but it's just so badly out of their comfort zone that it's actively uncomfortable to watch and it's hard to see any redeeming qualities whatsoever. For example Hawayak and Baker's short dance to the Nutcracker last year. I love them but it was bad. It was always bad, it never got better. It was just too far removed from what their strengths were and glaringly showcased some of their weaknesses, particularly hers. (Strange to think of the Nutcracker as a risk, but anyway).

Then there are couples who never take a risk, like Cappelini and Lanotte. I love these two as well but at this point it's actually frustrating to me to watch them because their programs are literally almost indistinguishable from one another, to the point where it's almost comical if you think about it in a certain way. What they do they do brilliantly, but it literally seems there is nothing else in their competitive repertoire.

Then there is the rare couple who can pretty much make anything look good, though I think in many cases such couples never ultimately make anything look truly great, either. People who are sort of effortlessly versatile, like Pechelat and Bourezat. I think for couples that aren't like this, though, it always has to be about seeking the balance- you want to play to your strengths but you also want to not bore everyone to tears by doing the same program over and over again for 10 years.

 

[Interspectator]

In the Ladies, Suzuki Akiko showed in her career a nice variety of moods, music, costumes and styles. She inhabited them all very well. From Kill Bill to O and beyond.

 

[JuliaHols]

Well, let Fernandez do a good lyrical program first. I’ve seen Hanyu done good entertaining program like Parisienne Walkways and good lyrical programs like Chopin Ballade No. 1 and Requiem of Heaven and Earth. I’ve never seen Fernandez done any lyrical programs. I hope he’ll give it a try before he retires.

Actually Javi has done a good lyrical program. It's his Danny Boy exhibition.

 

[Mathman]

Personally I thought All Michelle Kwan's performance started looking alike but.

…but ... if it's not broke, don't fix it. Her fans expected a Michelle Kwan program, and that's what they got. Every time.

 

[lakeside]

Actually Javi has done a good lyrical program. It's his Danny Boy exhibition.

Just watched that exhibition program. I like the song, but Fernandez doesn’t skate it well. His arms are too stiff, and his hunched back… He needs to learn from Patrick and Hanyu how to skate to lyrical music and work on his posture and skating skills. Maybe David Wilson knows his weaknesses and thus never gives him any lyrical competition programs.