Does anyone miss the "old" judging system?

[silverpond]

Hello out there -- it's been a while since I've visited and/or posted on Golden Skate. I'm sure there are at least a few of you "golden oldie" skating fans (no, we're not "old", but we have been skating fans for decades) who miss the decimal marking system. Those were the days when the skating audiences erupted with cheers when a 6.0 was posted, and for some skaters, such as the great Michelle Kwan, that was a frequent occurrence. I still remember the 1989 World Championships when Midori Ito of Japan landed the first-ever triple axle by a woman at the Worlds and received five 6.0s for technical merit -- by far the most awarded for technical merit for any skater. I do appreciate that the ISU recommended the "points system" following the judging controversy at the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympics, and perhaps this change has resulted in "fairer" results. However, and this is a BIG however for yours truly, figure skating (singles, anyway) has become so much of a jumping contest - packing as many jump combos as possible, and especially at the end of programs - that the beauty of figure skating has been diminished. Thanks for letting me let off some steam!

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I miss the programs under 6.0, but I think the current judging system is better at rewarding technical merit and skating ability.

 

[HanDomi]

I miss the programs under 6.0, but I think the current judging system is better at rewarding technical merit and skating ability.

agree

 

[LiamForeman]

What I wish would happen is a combination. Do COP for technical, and back to 6.0 for presentation. The second mark is clearly wrong under COP, most judges just give the same scores across the board, no matter if a well executed program is devoid of transitions or choreo. You can tell a 5.7 versus 5.9 for presentation marks. Under this system, nothing seems to make sense. It's hard to be a fan of skating. I was a major uber fan now I just watch a few skates on Youtube. There's no fun or joy. You know who will bring in the PCS whether deserved or not.

 

[donezo]

I miss 6.0 so much. IJS comes from a good place, but the absurd requirements for steps and spins have really killed so many of these programs for me. I do love a lot of IJS programs, but so many of the absolute masterpieces of 6.0 would be impossible to create today. What would Torvill/Dean's "Bolero" look like with mandatory twizzles? Or "Lyra Angelica" if Michelle were counting spin revolutions like a crazy person?

 

[TMC]

I don't really miss 6.0 - COP has its faults but it also has so many more positives. I think that spins and steps are much better now. Programmes on the whole are more intricate and have more substance, imo. Though I do miss the feeling of excitement of seeing that 6.0 light up the scoreboard!

 

[noskates]

I miss the programs under 6.0, but I think the current judging system is better at rewarding technical merit and skating ability.

That's how I feel, too. I know there's a lot of talk on here about nationalism with judges but I think it's pretty hard to prove that with the current point system and the technical specialists. The only thing I DO object to is what trying to grab points has done to the flow of some programs. The weird spin positions are a bit too much sometimes.

 

[gkelly]

In general I prefer IJS as a method to score skating as a higher-faster-stronger sport -- and by that I don't just mean the big tricks.

But I think the sport might benefit by changes to the rules such that one program emphasizes maximum technical difficulty and quality, and another emphasizes technical mastery and aesthetic impact with less emphasis on difficulty.

Or whole separate competitions with these different focuses. The latter could be more arts-oriented and probably remain outside the Olympic movement.

Perhaps the latter would be better served by a comparative (ordinal) judging system.

I know there's a lot of talk on here about nationalism with judges but I think it's pretty hard to prove that with the current point system and the technical specialists.

Not sure what you mean about the technical specialists.

A lot of the reason we can't point out nationalism in the current system is the anonymity in the way the scores are presented for major international events. And we had anonymity with 6.0 judging in the "interim system" of 2003 and 2004; anonymity and IJS are two completely different issues that happened to have been introduced at approximately the same time for some of the same reasons.

At lesser events such as JGP (where nationalism is less of a problem), and at many countries' domestic events (where it's not relevant), the judges' scores are not scrambled so we can identify who gave which scores. But you have to look back and forth between documents after the fact to associate specific scores with specific judges, so there's not the same immediate ability to follow which judges you agreed or disagreed with, which was part of the fun for fans in the old system.

 

[tulosai]

I miss the programs under 6.0, but I think the current judging system is better at rewarding technical merit and skating ability.

I am another who generally agrees with this sentiment. I think overall, given that this is a sport, the current system is superior. I also think that, while far from perfect, it is less corrupt. I would not favor going back to 6.0 because I do generally feel this is an improvement; however, I do miss some of the programs and some of the lovely moments in them that would not be possible to replicate now, particularly some of the spins.

 

[FlattFan]

They don't reward CH at all. It used to be that they were talking about how certain programs are so spectacular it could win the Olympics. The coach, the choreographers were working around the clock to create the most innovative and beautiful programs. Now, it's 1/5 for PCS, and not even scored correctly.

CH should be at least 1/2 of PCS because SS and TR should be part of TES.

 

[edenlover]

Programs were more unique in the good old days. Artistry was so obvious when a skater was gifted with it. I think skating has lost its balance in this new system. Just watch the old tapes and compare .

 

[randomfan]

They don't reward CH at all. It used to be that they were talking about how certain programs are so spectacular it could win the Olympics. The coach, the choreographers were working around the clock to create the most innovative and beautiful programs. Now, it's 1/5 for PCS, and not even scored correctly.

CH should be at least 1/2 of PCS because SS and TR should be part of TES.

I agree about SS and TR being part of TES. Samantha Cesario was an awesome performer but she kept receiving low PCS just because of her SS and TR.

 

[plushyfan]

I miss it.

 

[jenaj]

I miss it, too. With effort, I finally understand the IJS pretty well for singles skating but not at all for dance and pairs. It is just too complicated. And PCS is used just like the marks were under the old system but there is no accountability. I think the second mark should just be one mark from 1-10 and they should factor it for the total score. Right now, things are backwards. People who know the way the system works divide PCS by the factor to get the average score. For example, Max's 81 means he averaged 8.1. It would be much more meaningful to have the second mark be based only on P/E, S/S and I. Just one mark times 10 or whatever factor seems appropriate. Give credit for transitions in the first mark.

 

[noskates]

Perhaps I have tunnel vision but it seems like the cries of Nationalism come when someone's favorite from another country doesn't win or doesn't do as well as they would like. I do think that when a skater is skating before his or her own country or home crowd there is an extra motivation to do your best.

I do wish there was more of a pentalty for falling and fewer points for just rotating and not landing. It would definitely even the playing field.

 

[Weathergal]

I miss the programs under 6.0, but I think the current judging system is better at rewarding technical merit and skating ability.

I don't really miss 6.0 - COP has its faults but it also has so many more positives. I think that spins and steps are much better now. Programmes on the whole are more intricate and have more substance, imo. Though I do miss the feeling of excitement of seeing that 6.0 light up the scoreboard!

That's how I feel, too. I know there's a lot of talk on here about nationalism with judges but I think it's pretty hard to prove that with the current point system and the technical specialists. The only thing I DO object to is what trying to grab points has done to the flow of some programs. The weird spin positions are a bit too much sometimes.

I am another who generally agrees with this sentiment. I think overall, given that this is a sport, the current system is superior. I also think that, while far from perfect, it is less corrupt. I would not favor going back to 6.0 because I do generally feel this is an improvement; however, I do miss some of the programs and some of the lovely moments in them that would not be possible to replicate now, particularly some of the spins.

Agreed with pretty much all of the above, especially the bolded parts.

Someone mentioned they don't like seeing jumps crammed into the end of the program. I didn't like the front-loaded programs of the 6.0 system, so I would imagine that IJS was trying to counter-act that. But now, in some cases (cough Medvedeva), the pendulum has swung too much in the other direction. It would be nice to see a more balanced program, but it is understandable that skaters who are well trained and able would want to backload their programs to garner more points. So perhaps further refinements are needed.

In some ways, I think dance has been helped the most by this system, even though it's VERY complicated, because it quantifies things and better clarifies what the judges are looking for. It seems like it's allowed a little more movement in the standings than what you used to see. Papadakis/Cizeron are an extreme example, of course, but I can't imagine a move like that being possible under the old system. I've been a fan of all disciplines for years but didn't follow dance as closely as I do now, so I'm curious what others think.

 

[badknees]

COP is what allowed Adelina to pack her program with technical and then since the judges give PCS based on good tech she was able to grab the Olympic gold.

COP thus produces skaters that play the game and don't really care about becoming an all around skater. And unfortunately the judging of PCS based on good tech is wrong, so I'd say, at present COP is a let down. Will they ever find a way to award PCS correctly and fairly?

 

[MaxSwagg]

COP is what allowed Adelina to pack her program with technical and then since the judges give PCS based on good tech she was able to grab the Olympic gold.

COP thus produces skaters that play the game and don't really care about becoming an all around skater. And unfortunately the judging of PCS based on good tech is wrong, so I'd say, at present COP is a let down. Will they ever find a way to award PCS correctly and fairly?

Oh, please. She would've gotten high artistic impression scores to. It's not just restricted to IJS. Brazen judges, I'd even go as far as to say she'd get a 6.0...maybe even two. It would've been fraudulent scoring no mater what system.

 

[el henry]

Yes, I miss the old system. Not because my favorite has not been rewarded by this system or because I feel certain rivals have been over-rewarded (and I mention no names because I do not want to go the Specific-Skater-wuz-robbed route here.)

Because I don't care how easy it is to understand once you study it (so is nuclear physics) or how much more specific it is, current scoring takes away from the viewing experience. Nothing beat the immediate gratification of seeing a 6 come up for a great skate, or the frustration of seeing the 5.5 from the East German judge (for the skater I followed) and gnashing your teeth. If skating ever wants to appeal to more than 4,000 fans at a whack in the US (maybe), it will need a simplified system. And die-hards will need to content themselves that maybe each and every specific move is not rewarded...

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

COP thus produces skaters that play the game and don't really care about becoming an all around skater.

I would say Patrick Chan's success refutes this statement. In fact, I think Kurt Browning would have done much better under IJS. He and Petrenko were viewed as artistic peers under 6.0, yet Browning had much more difficult and interesting choreography that wasn't really rewarded under 6.0.