Dornbush to replace Abbott at 4CC's
- Thread starter dorispulaski
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- Jun 27, 2003
Come on folks, if you have a beef with another poster, instead of yelling at each other or insulting or whatever you want to call it - take to PM or use the ignore feature. Don't drag a thread down.
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- Nov 7, 2007
I don't know....do correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the general public already just assumes that the vast majority of--if not all--male figure skaters are gay no matter how many Evan Lysaceks are promoted as the "hetero" faces of figure skating. In this light, I don't see why the powers that be keep insisting on the contrary. Why not embrace the whole thing and run with it? It's not like "playing it safe" has paid off financially thus far either....
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- Jun 27, 2003
yes but just think if they DIDN'T try to downplay it... I'm not a USFSA head, and I don't think they're homophobic either, I'm just saying that if the argument is to be made there's a reason for it and it's gotta be a money thing.
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- Nov 7, 2007
Oh, I do understand that there could be an argument made for it. I just think that it's a poor argument for the USFSA to make, especially in light of changing societal norms regarding LGBT issues.
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- Sep 14, 2008
I never said that was exclusively the reason Patrick is so highly scored, but it certainly plays a part.
I think there are a wide variety of reasons:
1. France is less racist than the United States. They may be quite closed off to foreigners and protective of their own culture but, in terms of judging people by the color of their skin, I believe they are considerably less prejudiced as a whole.
2. French culture cares about artistry more than perhaps any other country.
3. French people do not have to worry as much about simply getting by in life. Their citizens' basic needs are taken care of by the government and thus they are much more free to pursue what they really want to do in life rather than worrying about needing to work a full-time job they hate in order to survive.
4. The French diet is far more healthy than the American diet. Overweight people do not become competitive skaters.
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- Nov 19, 2010
So many unsupportable assumptions here.
How do you know exactly what they see? And then proceed to describe what they see as you see, with factual errors?
Whether or not he is handsome is subjective but his height at 5'7" is common male skater height, nothing close to Lysacek, Sandhu, or even Joubert, Verner and Plushenko, etc. Skaters of very different heights have won Worlds and Olympics so I don't see any height preference from the judges.
It is natural for a man to skate with a masculine vibe. It is neither a fault nor a virtue. It is not why Chan wins. Canada has produced champions of a wide range of styles. If masculine vibe is the most valued, Stojko would have been the greatest and most admired but he does not stand out as such.
Patrick has trained with American coaches in the US since his first coach passed away. Canada values the same complete package of athleticism and artistry as the rest of the world.
I see very different styles in recent American champions: Lysacek, Weir, Abbott, and Bradley. In Canada, we have had Sandhu, Buttle, and Chan lately, none of whom stands out extra masculine or hetero. Just great skaters.
Amodio has been both exalted and criticized, but criticism has been mostly on his skating, or rather insufficient skating in his competition programs. And purposeful rule violation. How do you come to conclude he is not how people want to see the men in Canada - costume, etc.?
How do you know exactly what they see? And then proceed to describe what they see as you see, with factual errors?
Whether or not he is handsome is subjective but his height at 5'7" is common male skater height, nothing close to Lysacek, Sandhu, or even Joubert, Verner and Plushenko, etc. Skaters of very different heights have won Worlds and Olympics so I don't see any height preference from the judges.
It is natural for a man to skate with a masculine vibe. It is neither a fault nor a virtue. It is not why Chan wins. Canada has produced champions of a wide range of styles. If masculine vibe is the most valued, Stojko would have been the greatest and most admired but he does not stand out as such.
Patrick has trained with American coaches in the US since his first coach passed away. Canada values the same complete package of athleticism and artistry as the rest of the world.
I see very different styles in recent American champions: Lysacek, Weir, Abbott, and Bradley. In Canada, we have had Sandhu, Buttle, and Chan lately, none of whom stands out extra masculine or hetero. Just great skaters.
Amodio has been both exalted and criticized, but criticism has been mostly on his skating, or rather insufficient skating in his competition programs. And purposeful rule violation. How do you come to conclude he is not how people want to see the men in Canada - costume, etc.?
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- Jan 7, 2011
I can see how USFS management, coaches or even agents might think that all too plausibly. They'd be wrong, though. The skater they're discouraging wouldn't be the first. There's Rudy Galindo, who came out as gay while still competing as an eligible skater, and won a national championship and world bronze after coming out. He went on to have a pretty successful career in show skating and left the sport intact. That was 16 years ago. We have top level skaters competing now who are younger than that. Come to think of it, there could be high level US skaters now who don't know who Galindo is or that he came out. Which may be why he remains the only one. Johnny Weir, for all his flamboyance and outspokenness, always demurred on the question of his sexuality until after he was done skating.
Thank you for your theories on why France has produced more top level black skaters than the US! Well, except the last one. That would just lead to France producing more and better skaters in proportion to their total population, not necessarily black ones. It's possible that there are further differences in diet among black French people and black Americans. But even then, there have been quite a few top level black American gymnasts, a sport that also requires a strict diet. But all the other reasons make sense.
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- Nov 7, 2007
I also can't help but think that the stigma towards "acting white" among African-Americans also may play a role in limiting the presence of top-level black figure skaters in the US.
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- Jul 26, 2003
I can't say whether looks (and USFS salivating for a marketing campaign with Ricky) are their biggest motivator for picking him, but I can tell you why they shouldn't pick him, aside from the fact that it is not a sporting way to pick:
If Ricky skates a short like he did at Nationals, then he won't make the LP. In fact, if you want a third member for a team at Worlds, Euros or 4CCs, their most important job as a team member, rather than as a skater skating for themselves is to score well in the short so that they qualify for the long. Not making the long at Worlds has consequences for other skaters, who then may have to skate the qualifying round the next year because of such a skater's poor performance.
Armin was 3rd in the short with 80.66. Ricky was 17th with 51.59 points. Ricky was not sick or injured. He was that bad. He was worse than Rachael Flatt skating on a broken leg (she scored 57.22 at Worlds last year). His TES was 19.73. He didn't rotate his jumps-he popped 2 of the 3 to singles. His PCS was pure bleeding heart gift. He should have been worse than 51.59.
The lowest SP by a man at Worlds was Misha Ge of UZB, and he had higher TES than Ricky Dornbush at nationals, 22.80. Needless to say, it was irrelevant how Ge did in the LP, because he did not get to skate it.
So if you're going to give a prize for bombing at Nationals, at least give it to a skater who saves their bombing for the LP. Many skaters have had a respectable career acing the SP and bombing the LP. The reverse doesn't happen. The skater is at the very bottom of the list and goes nowhere.
If Ricky skates a short like he did at Nationals, then he won't make the LP. In fact, if you want a third member for a team at Worlds, Euros or 4CCs, their most important job as a team member, rather than as a skater skating for themselves is to score well in the short so that they qualify for the long. Not making the long at Worlds has consequences for other skaters, who then may have to skate the qualifying round the next year because of such a skater's poor performance.
Armin was 3rd in the short with 80.66. Ricky was 17th with 51.59 points. Ricky was not sick or injured. He was that bad. He was worse than Rachael Flatt skating on a broken leg (she scored 57.22 at Worlds last year). His TES was 19.73. He didn't rotate his jumps-he popped 2 of the 3 to singles. His PCS was pure bleeding heart gift. He should have been worse than 51.59.
The lowest SP by a man at Worlds was Misha Ge of UZB, and he had higher TES than Ricky Dornbush at nationals, 22.80. Needless to say, it was irrelevant how Ge did in the LP, because he did not get to skate it.
So if you're going to give a prize for bombing at Nationals, at least give it to a skater who saves their bombing for the LP. Many skaters have had a respectable career acing the SP and bombing the LP. The reverse doesn't happen. The skater is at the very bottom of the list and goes nowhere.
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- Mar 14, 2006
This whole debate would make more sense to me if Armin had had a good year. Instead, he had an extremely disappointing one, not doing well until Nats and his coaching change. Dornbush did a bit better, and his past results are at least as good as Armin's. Plus, he's a bigger jumper. I've been a big fan of Armin's in the past, and was heartened to see his recent improvement, but if I had to guess which one is likelier (not saying likely!) to have a big international career, my guess at this point would be Dornbush.
I see nothing wrong with the USFSA picking the skater they think is likeliest to compete best, based on a longer track record than just Nats. That seems quite sports-minded to me.
I see nothing wrong with the USFSA picking the skater they think is likeliest to compete best, based on a longer track record than just Nats. That seems quite sports-minded to me.
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- Aug 18, 2010
If Jason Brown were chosen instead of Dornbush, I guess there wouldn't have been such an outrage.
Was that because Dornbush is a "heterosexual", so he's chosen was extraly offended?
No one even knows what Armin thinks the whole thing! Armin doesn't have much to recommend himself either. Everyone knows that one competition might result in a stupid outcome. I still think that Abbott and Rippon should have been allowed to go to the worlds last year. This is the same thing! USFSA has learned to be smarter. The fact that one's race and sexual orientation have been cooked in this thread is disgusting.
Was that because Dornbush is a "heterosexual", so he's chosen was extraly offended?
No one even knows what Armin thinks the whole thing! Armin doesn't have much to recommend himself either. Everyone knows that one competition might result in a stupid outcome. I still think that Abbott and Rippon should have been allowed to go to the worlds last year. This is the same thing! USFSA has learned to be smarter. The fact that one's race and sexual orientation have been cooked in this thread is disgusting.Just wanted to say
Paul Wylie had never finished higher than ninth at the World Figure Skating Championships four years prior, and had skated such a poor performance at the U.S. Championships immediately prior to the 1992 Olympic Winter Games that reporters questioned his placement on the Olympic Team. (He won the silver medal in Albertville.) The USFSA had even left Wylie off the team for the 1992 World Championships, naming Mark Mitchell in his place.
Paul Wylie had never finished higher than ninth at the World Figure Skating Championships four years prior, and had skated such a poor performance at the U.S. Championships immediately prior to the 1992 Olympic Winter Games that reporters questioned his placement on the Olympic Team. (He won the silver medal in Albertville.) The USFSA had even left Wylie off the team for the 1992 World Championships, naming Mark Mitchell in his place.
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- Jul 26, 2003
Dornbush is consistently weaker in the SP than the LP--which is why, although he won the LP at US Nationals last year, he finished second, just hundredths ahead of Miner. He had a good SP at the JGPF last year, that's about it.
He has never medalled in a GP. Armin has (last year).
He has not achieved enough in the sport to warrant this kind of special treatment, IMO, even if I supported special treatment, which I don't.
In fact, my 2nd preferred solution to last year's dilemma, if you weren't going to follow the strict finishes at US Nationals, was send Bradley, Miner, and Abbott to Worlds and send Ricky to Jr. Worlds so he could win the Junior Worlds championship that his JGPF win indicates he might have been in line for (and his team IMO should have requested this). But they sent him to senior worlds early instead. Where he did OK, but even with some US politicking, did not excel. His short was quite scratchy. Again.
So he did get 2 GPs, but if he had won Jr. Worlds, he would surely have managed 2 GPs also.
Likewise, though I dearly love Jason Brown's skating, the right place for him would be Jr. Worlds, not senior Worlds, despite winning the JGPF this year (not last like Dornbush).
He has never medalled in a GP. Armin has (last year).
He has not achieved enough in the sport to warrant this kind of special treatment, IMO, even if I supported special treatment, which I don't.
In fact, my 2nd preferred solution to last year's dilemma, if you weren't going to follow the strict finishes at US Nationals, was send Bradley, Miner, and Abbott to Worlds and send Ricky to Jr. Worlds so he could win the Junior Worlds championship that his JGPF win indicates he might have been in line for (and his team IMO should have requested this). But they sent him to senior worlds early instead. Where he did OK, but even with some US politicking, did not excel. His short was quite scratchy. Again.
So he did get 2 GPs, but if he had won Jr. Worlds, he would surely have managed 2 GPs also.
Likewise, though I dearly love Jason Brown's skating, the right place for him would be Jr. Worlds, not senior Worlds, despite winning the JGPF this year (not last like Dornbush).
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- Jun 21, 2003
I uttertly disagree. That sort of reasoning does not seem sports-minded to me in the least.
It is like saying the New England Patriots should be given the Super Bowl crown without playing for it because the Patriots had a better season and I think they probably will do better in the future.
This is sports-minded only if the sport in mind is chess. IMHO this kind of reasoning puts "the committee" at the forefront and the athletes on the back burner . It promotes a view that figure skating is a "sport" played among national federations as they strategize and one-up each other, rather than as an activity that takes place on a sheet of ice.
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- Mar 8, 2006
Right on point in both your last posts. I agree wholeheartedly!
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- Jun 21, 2003
I do not think that the sport of figure skating should be about whether Ms. St. Peter is craftier than Mr. Pisseev.
There is no consistency in the way USFS picked the team assignments. If they are looking at other factors besides the placement at Nationals, then why didn't they spread the wealth in icedance as well? They skipped Alissa to pick Zhang for 4CC, skipped Armin to pick Ricky in 4 CC but did not assign K/G-S for 4CC. K/G-S did very well at Nationals and it was so close to get Bronze medal. Lots of people felt they should have won Bronze. I really think that there is politics or something behind the door. We will never comprehend what USFS did.
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- Dec 21, 2011
To me their selections in ladies make a bit more sense than in mens, but I do have to say I find the outrage sort of over the top. No one cared that he was first alternate until Abott was injured. Now it is some awful thing as though USFSA knew Abbot would be injured somehow or something. Several people complained in other threads that USFSA was ignoring its lists of alternates to send Dornbush not realizing he was first alternate all along. I know SOME PEOPLE knew and were probably upset before, but honestly I do not get the strong reactions here. I know we all have our favorites but (while 4CCs is becoming more important now than in recent and past years) it's not Worlds, where DOrnbush is not first alternate. I don't, personally, see anything wrong with spreading international assignments out and giving less important ones to skaters who are good, and could benefit from the experience, and have had somewhat successful GP seasons instead of just to the next highest finisher at Nationals.
Just my view.
^ Haven't gone back and re-read all the related threads; but sense is that some people were like: hmmmm, what's going on with the selections. If I'm wrong, I know I thought it was odd, but had already spent way more time than I have available (although not nearly as much as I would have liked) watching and commenting on skating to raise more questions about the selection. Shortly after, Abbot withdrew from 4CC's and here we are now (still not tons of time, imho).
I have to agree with I understand from Doris and MM....I prefer the idea that nationals decides and you go in order down the list from that event. I understand concern over getting the best world team possible for next year's competitors - but I like the nationals as the deciding event; you build up to it and have to deliver then. If the USFS wishes to 'spread the wealth' as some of suggested, I would, at the very least, like that strategy to be made explicit and be part of every year's strategy (not saying I would like this, as I haven't quite given it enough thought, but am saying if they decide to do this it shouldn't come as a surprise when they will choose to and who they will choose to give less to to spread the wealth to others).
Last thing....and again, haven't gone back and read all the related threads; but even if it serves Alissa better to rest now, I don't like that they wouldn't offer it to her as an option for her to decide while sending the second place in other disciplines....This just smacks of unclear or uneven application of committee decision making within what appear to be somewhat murky rules/possibilities (some of which might be new). I'd rather always have clear rules and clear expectations of how they will be applied.
Anyway, all of this is just my view too - and just for the record, as much as I absolutely adore Brown, I wouldn't have liked him to be sent to 4cc's over Armin or others above him in placements at nationals either (do hope he kicks butt at junior worlds, though!)
I have to agree with I understand from Doris and MM....I prefer the idea that nationals decides and you go in order down the list from that event. I understand concern over getting the best world team possible for next year's competitors - but I like the nationals as the deciding event; you build up to it and have to deliver then. If the USFS wishes to 'spread the wealth' as some of suggested, I would, at the very least, like that strategy to be made explicit and be part of every year's strategy (not saying I would like this, as I haven't quite given it enough thought, but am saying if they decide to do this it shouldn't come as a surprise when they will choose to and who they will choose to give less to to spread the wealth to others).
Last thing....and again, haven't gone back and read all the related threads; but even if it serves Alissa better to rest now, I don't like that they wouldn't offer it to her as an option for her to decide while sending the second place in other disciplines....This just smacks of unclear or uneven application of committee decision making within what appear to be somewhat murky rules/possibilities (some of which might be new). I'd rather always have clear rules and clear expectations of how they will be applied.
Anyway, all of this is just my view too - and just for the record, as much as I absolutely adore Brown, I wouldn't have liked him to be sent to 4cc's over Armin or others above him in placements at nationals either (do hope he kicks butt at junior worlds, though!)
