Dornbush to replace Abbott at 4CC's

[Mathman]

FS is not just about the athletes or the fans. It is about the pride of the nations that these athletes and fans represent.

Figure skating is such an individual sport that I just can't get into this "national pride" thing.

Evan Lysacek won the 2010 Olympics. Good for Evan. But I didn't win anything, and I did not spend a lot of time patting myself on the back for having been born in the same country (and only two states away!) from someone who achieved something noteworthy.

If Plushenko had won I would have been happy for him as well. Or if the winner had been from Switzerland.

 

[Mathman]

Did you or Doris note the line in the new policy (cited by Jaylee above on p2 or 3 of this thread) where it says, "however, the International Committee may consider extenuating circumstances"?

I am pretty sure that this is not a "new policy." I do not see much difference in the wording between this year's rules and the rules they put in place before the 2009-2010 season. I didn't look up the wording previous to 2009, but there has always been similar language about picking the team for worlds and other ISU events.

What is new is not the language but the fact that the USFSA suddenly jumped up and started interpreting their long-standing rules differently this year than they have in the past."Extenuating circumstances" has always referred to situations where a "dominant skater" has had to miss nationals because of injuries, or the truly exceptional situation of Tonya Harding. (Harding sued in civil court to prevent the USFSA from invoking this clause and kicking her off the Olympic team.)

This line provides all the latitude they need to justify any rational decision.

Well of course it does. And not only that, but they are the ones that get to decide whether their decisions are rational or not.

Every organization arrogates to itself the power to do as it pleases and the heck with everyone else.

 

[Kinga]

Is it fair to pass him (Dornbush) over for a skater who has struggled all season until last weekend (Armin)?

Well, Armin delievered when it really counted. That is what matters. Also, saying that he struggled, is a bit of a strecht. Plus he medalled in GP last year.
Morevoer, his performace at the Nationals could possibly indicate that currently he might be in a better shape than Ricky. And 4CC is just starting now.

 

[Bluebonnet]

My main concern is doing well at Worlds and I don't think it's a long shot to assume that is the goal of the USFSA as well. Prove me wrong!

:yes::thumbsup: It is the interest of the country. And the country is what Americans all united as a whole on international stage. At there the individual is not as important as the whole country.

I find this constant arguing for one individual's loss/gain over a whole country's interests funny at the best. You and USFSA all want the same thing, don't you? Can't you trust USFSA that this organization is doing it's best in considering your country first? Or you just don't care your country as a whole that much?! Last year, it was "fair" for Miner. But your country has lost.

Figure skating is such an individual sport that I just can't get into this "national pride" thing.

Evan Lysacek won the 2010 Olympics. Good for Evan. But I didn't win anything, and I did not spend a lot of time patting myself on the back for having been born in the same country (and only two states away!) from someone who achieved something noteworthy.

If Plushenko had won I would have been happy for him as well. Or if the winner had been from Switzerland.

You didn't feel the national pride when Boitano won Olympic gold medal?! You didn't feel it when Davis&White won the first time ever ice dance world championship gold?! You didn't feel that pride whenever Michelle Kwan won on international stage, and you knew that your most beloved skater was representing your country so you were part of it?!

Also, different individual measure the word "fairness" differently. Some say using Nationals result as the only criteria is fair. Others say considering one's performances in a period of time is fair.

Too many people want to be "mother-in-law" who want to put a foot into everything. As I've said last year, it's like a pile of sand, not a bulk of clay. That's what's undermining this country.

 

[ivy]

Figure skating is such an individual sport that I just can't get into this "national pride" thing.

It's funny, athletics in general is the one place where I do feel patriotic. I route for US teams and athletes and can be moved when they win. I guess I feel like no one is really hurt, so why not an US win if it's done through skill, hard work and talent. Otherwise I think of myself as a citizen of the world, and of my small town

 

[Mathman]

You didn't feel the national pride when Boitano won Olympic gold medal?!

I liked Orser's performance better and thought that he should have won.

But that's OK, I don't have any school spirit either. I remember when the football coach used to get up on stage at pep rally and shout, "We're the best school in town!" Everybody cheered. But I was like, "We are?"

 

[Pikachuusb]

Im a mixed bag when it comes to the National vs Individual spirit....

With alot of Olympic sports Im all about the USA!!! :yay:

with figure skating, Im not that way at all. Its all about the individual for me. Yes I cheer for our skaters(mostly) but if my favorite is competing(and they are from a different country), team spirit goes right out the window

however when it comes to spots for Worlds & the Olympics, I want the best team possible to get the 3 spots, that way my favorite has a better chance of going the next year, if they arent already on the team going this year

 

[Jaana]

I liked Orser's performance better and thought that he should have won.

At the time I thought that Boitano was the right winner, but in these days I enjoy Orser´s skating style a lot more.

 

[Poodlepal]

It's true that you don't shout "USA" at a figure skating competition like you would at a hockey game. Still, these are the people who represent the United States at an international event. They are like ambassadors of a sort, and the USFSA will be embarrassed if they don't comport themselves properly and show up out of shape or unprepared. Any medals they win will be added to the USA's medal count in the standings, and it's the United States' national anthem that is played for them. If I have to hear a national anthem and see a rink full of fans waving flags and shouting a country's name, well, I think most people would rather it be their own.

 

[skateluvr]

I liked Orser's performance better and thought that he should have won.

But that's OK, I don't have any school spirit either. I remember when the football coach used to get up on stage at pep rally and shout, "We're the best school in town!" Everybody cheered. But I was like, "We are?"

I'm the same way. We care more about fairness. Are you a Libra by any chance? (Don't worry, the next question is not to ask you for a cup of coffee, My math ability, even when running on all 4 would elicit pity or contempt!) OT, I am intimidated by all the numbers crunchers on this board, and from what I recently read, even Kiira Korpi just admitted her team does not really know CoP too well and they made a mistake in planning her LP, wish i could recall where i read this?! Imagine, the European silver medalist admitting they don't understand the judging system as well as they should! Anyway, OT again, I can only imagine the stunning blond would get many offers of "help"' on understanding CoP from many folks here. Some people did not mind the age issue in gymnastics in 2008, but I was appalled. Better to lose honestly than cheat to give a higher medal account. This stuff makes fair/just people just crazy.

I felt the same way, as you Mathman re Brian O though I was watching when very ill for some major reasons. I do remember my boyfriend was making fun of them and said they were likely partner off ice. Either my gaydar was not yet there or I was too ill, but I clearly recall thinking that the LP was Orsers. I can't comment on the tech merit marks without rewatching both skates due to memory issues, but I recall thinking, Orser was better! His speed and the way he quickly rotated his jumps. I think he should have won, but i did not understand the scoring then and that one could win the LP but lose the event. It was so close. But I felt he was better, his Lp was better, faster, better jumps. His speed struck me all those years ago.


Fairness and justness in judging should matter to the real FS fan more than nationalism, IMHO, any day of the week.

 

[Tonichelle]

Evan Lysacek won the 2010 Olympics. Good for Evan. But I didn't win anything, and I did not spend a lot of time patting myself on the back for having been born in the same country (and only two states away!) from someone who achieved something noteworthy.

Hmmm. I don't play football and yet I'm completely into the "team pride" of the 49ers... and I'm not from San Francisco (and neither were my parents, though they ARE from Northern Cal.)

TEAM USA is at the olympics, individuals wear the same jackets as the rest of the TEAM.

 

[Olympia]

Math, as a point of logic, the fact that you personally don't see skating victories as moments of national pride isn't relevant to the argument. (Though it admirably shows your independence of mind!) The fact is that many people (I can't verify if it's a majority) do feel a sense of national achievement when "their" athlete or team wins, and the system in general supports that approach. There's no moral preference to either camp, I think. But for many people there's a tribal element to sports, and that's fine when not taken to excess. Only think of the way gymnast Vera Caslavska revived the feelings of Czechs in the 1968 Olympics after the Soviet invasion by not just winning, but defeating Soviet gymnasts. It was an intangible benefit, but no less significant for that.

For myself, I do feel national pride at certain sports moments. Since I'm not much of a team sports person, it's generally sports like skating and track that inspire this reaction in me. At other times, of course, I feel satisfaction at the victory of competitors who aren't from my country. I think that winners such as Gordeyeva/Grinkov and Torvill/Dean make me feel part of the country of skating, so to speak; they glorify us all.

At this moment, the skaters I support the most fervently (except in ice dance) are from another country. In singles, I'll be happiest if Asada and Takahashi win this year's worlds and the Olympics in Sochi. I certainly wouldn't be disappointed if Alissa wins, of course, because I love her as a skater, but Asada ranks even higher in my esteem. I don't feel this is disloyalty. But if one of the Americans (or two in the case of ice dance!) should win in any discipline, I'll feel an extra exhilaration if they show the medal ceremony.

As a sideline to this discussion, I wonder how people feel when they spend an extended time in another country. Do they feel a heightened loyalty to their athletes, or do they take on the support of their host country's athletes? I was studying in the U.K. during one summer Olympics, and I remember how excited I was when a Brit won or medaled. Part of that was that Americans have so many top contenders, in so many sports, that it was more refreshing and meaningful to cheer for a country that couldn't count on dozens of medals.

 

[Mathman]

Math, as a point of logic, the fact that you personally don't see skating victories as moments of national pride isn't relevant to the argument.

I guess I forgot momentarily what the argument was about.

It is not more patriotic or less patriotic to think that Dornbush should go to Four Continents than to think that Mahbanoozadah should. Similarly, I do not see how it is more patriotic or less patriotic to choose the teams for Worlds strictly by the results of Nationals or to chose them by taking into account other competitions as well.

People seem to be saying that it is more patriotic to leave the choice to a committee charged with the mission of winning the maximum number of medals and placements.

To me, it is also patriotic, given what America claims and aspires to stand for, to put prime emphasis on the principles of individual achievement and fair play.

 

[Olympia]

It is not more patriotic or less patriotic to think that Dornbush should go to Four Continents than to think that Mahbanoozadah should. Similarly, I do not see how it is more patriotic or less patriotic to choose the teams for Worlds strictly by the results of Nationals or to chose them by taking into account other competitions as well.

And that I emphatically agree with, Math!

 

[rosem]

4CC has begun I wish Ricky do well in the FS. Congratulation to Ross for a great short!

I like to enter my 2 cents here on the USFS selection to 4CC.

I'm a big fan of Armin and have followed him for many years. It does seem like there is prejudice against him. They seem to change the rules each time he qualifies. When Armin had two consecutive years medaling in every JGP and JGPF he was denied the JW b/c of national’s placement (5th & 8th, better than 13th, right?) ,though they assigned Ross to JW the year he withdrew from national?

This year Armin has national placement and they choose someone with international placement what's up? If these are the rules this year why then they sending Caroline?

Armin was definitely robbed!

I wish USFS will stop looking in their Chrystal ball to choose a “future potential”. And I hope they compensate Armin by giving him some beyond-his-due support and consideration next season.

 

[Mathman]

Welcome, rosem. Thank you for joining us!

 

[seniorita]

I think either 4CC is really close to USA nationals and skaters are tired, or we jinxed him! But Rippon didnt do well either!

 

[dorispulaski]

True. But Miner skated an ever better SP than he did at Nationals or at the GP event (CoC? I think?) that he medalled at.

So it can be done.

But yes, Armin should definitely get the SA host invite slot if he doesn't land 2 slots of his own in some other way. He has definitely been robbed, IMO.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Really a shame Armin couldn't go. I know some people feel 4CC isn't that important of a competition, but it is; just look at who Canada and Japan sent. It's not clear to me why the USFSA has decided to deviate so far from its Worlds selection criteria when choosing athletes to attend this event.

As bad as I feel for Armin missing out, my heart does go out to Richard. I hope he's not starting to develop a mental block for doing clean SP's. We saw how long it too Ashley to get over that.

 

[rosem]

Thank you Mathman! I joined the forum to add my voice to the mix.