Duhamel, Radford fire coach

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

No, I don't hope anyone will implode. I'd love everyone to do their best and to develop themselves as fully as possible so there's as much great skating to watch as possible. But if you are imbalanced in your approach ( as they are), having achieved completely deserved success, and now seeking to have more/greater success, there's a good chance that with the pressure from that the imbalance will get more and more extreme and prove detrimental (and I would suggest you read Meagan Duhamel's blogging in various publications to see evidence of that as likely to happen). If they have got a change of personel, the thing they both need to remember is that a change of personnel is pointless unless you are also going to change as well. i hope they do; I hope they become more balanced in their approach, and I hope I see some great skating. But unless they appreciate that it is themselves that need to change (and there is nothing in their post to suggest they are looking to undertake personal change, but rather just change what they do) they are going to need a very hard-headed person in order to enforce that. And it's not that what they do - their being competitive and wanting to do really difficult technical stuff- is bad in any way shape or form (As someone who has watched ladies figure skating for however many years and seen no women really surpass technically what Kristin Yamaguchi (except maybe Mao, but there are issues there), and no-one touch Midori Ito's jumping standard, I greatly admire Meagan Duhamel for being a woman who has gone out there an pushed the technical standard as hard as she can). It is just what they do needs to be developed in different areas, and that involves developing them as people as well, and not turning up dials that are already on max.

I get the sense that nothing they do will be good enough for you (especially given some of your saltier posts earlier). What makes you think that when they go to Zimmerman they won't dial up other aspects of their skating? Please. When they switch things up and leave Gauthier, you criticize them for it, but if they continued with Richard you would criticize them for it, too. I'm not sure what you think is so "imbalanced" in their approach ... it's not exactly out of the ordinary for skaters to switch coaches, especially when losing momentum.

Other than pushing the technical envelope after years of stagnation in pairs skating, the thing that impresses me most about D/R is that they know who THEY are. They don't try to be something they're not just to pander to critics who would love to see them adapt to these critics' standards or ideals of pairs skating. They avoid warhorses -- even though that would surely be more palatable to the judges or evoke more "classic pairs skating" that the haters seems to continually criticize them for. They skate for themselves and that is truly respectable.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Can't even to get to page 3 without some Meagan hate. It's a coach change. Coach changes have implications, which can lead to speculation, etc. Like, there is so much else to discuss besides saying nasty things about a woman who likes to talk and analyze her performance and share her feelings with her partner and her coach. God forbid a woman open her mouth. Luckily, Bruno, Eric, et al don't have such backwards ideas about women being more than pretty, silent dolls.

Oh, hi there, pink elephant in the room!

You just know this is a reason people hate on Meagan -- not being the silent, classic, pretty pairs skater -- thinking in the KnC instead of plastering on a superficial smile and elegantly (but not too enthusiastically!) waving to the crowd. And don't forget to "say hi to your mom"! And curtsey! And give a soft nod of the head when your marks come up. And always to remember to act like a lady!

She is constantly engaged, and this is fine by me. Yes, that might remove the "magic" where you see an athlete actually thinking and reacting, instead of just rote execution, but I'm pretty sure if it were a man who was analyzing scores or discussing elements after their program (as some of the men do), people would have no issue.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I'm all for seeing skaters expressing genuine emotion. But it should be part of the performance: it should not be about the performance. And someone who is on the ice and ticking off technical elements in her head, and expressing emotion about the performance of those elements, and what that will mean in terms of the competition ,which is outside of the performance, does have a limited understanding of what a performance can be. But maybe Megan has come to realise that- after all they using John Kerr, who produced great work with Savchenko and Massot, which was very much of my idea of performance.

But she's performing in a competition!

 

[andromache]

Oh, hi there, pink elephant in the room!

You just know this is a reason people hate on Meagan -- not being the silent, classic, pretty pairs skater -- thinking in the KnC instead of plastering on a superficial grin and elegantly (but not too enthusiastically!) waving to the crowd. She is constantly engaged, and this is fine by me. Yes, that might remove the "magic" where you see an athlete actually thinking and reacting, instead of just rote execution, but I'm pretty sure if it were a man who was analyzing scores or discussing elements after their program (as some of the men do), people would have no issue.

Or men who fist-pump during performances, or actually yell (looking at you, Scott Moir), etc.

Same reason why Meagan gets hate for having muscles. GOD FORBID an Olympic-level athlete have visible musculature AND be a woman.

 

[andromache]

Anyone male or female that can be seen to jibba-jabbering through a lift would be deserving of that criticism; and would be given it. There are PCS for intellectual involvement and personal connection with what you are produce on the ice. Jibba-jabbering through a lift in a way that is disconnected from the technical and artistic sides of a skate displays for that period shows no intellectual involvement and no personal connection to the choreographic material. It is perfectly fair comment to point this out that and in no way can it be understood to be misogynistic; and to suggest that this shows a lack of development in an area that scored under the ISJ is again completely fair comment.

I would actually think that she probably has too much intellectual involvement if she can't stop talking about what they're doing.

It's fine to dislike it and say so, but to call it "appalling," judge her character for it ("a lack of interiority"), and keep referring to it condescendingly as "jibba jabbering"? Grow up.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Anyone male or female that can be seen to jibba-jabbering through a lift would be deserving of that criticism; and would be given it. There are PCS for intellectual involvement and personal connection with what you are produce on the ice. Jibba-jabbering through a lift in a way that is disconnected from the technical and artistic sides of a skate displays for that period shows no intellectual involvement and no personal connection to the choreographic material. It is perfectly fair comment to point this out that and in no way can it be understood to be misogynistic; and to suggest that this shows a lack of development in an area that scored under the ISJ is again completely fair comment.

There are top teams who jibber jabber through SBS spins, while stroking around... it's a pairs event, so they will communicate. Do you even know what Meaghan was saying during the lift? What if it was words of encouragement because it was late in the program? Or a note that affect the lift (like her balance point was off or something).

I know pairs skating is "supposed" to be wordless, but if we removed every pairs team that doesn't talk to each other during a performance or communicate, there wouldn't be many left on the ice. Have you ever been a pairs skater yourself? Because if you were you'd know that they constantly jibber-jabber.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Or men who fist-pump during performances, or actually yell (looking at you, Scott Moir), etc.

Same reason why Meagan gets hate for having muscles. GOD FORBID an Olympic-level athlete have visible musculature AND be a woman.

And have the brain cells to do quick complex calculations. Enough is enough. Who does she think she is, Super Woman?

 

[andromache]

No, she is (or should be) giving a performance that is then judged as part of a competition. Do you expect an actor on stage to suddenly break out of character and yell "wowzers I said that line really well" Or a dance in Sleeping Beauty to fist bump someone else in the middle of the Rose Adagio. Because that's the equivalent of what she is doing. It just seems to me that you don't understand artistry: have you ever seen a play or been to theatre or maybe watched a film or been to a ballet?

I didn't know those stage shows and ballets and movies I go see are part of a live competition! Wow! Who won the Sleeping Beauty competition??

 

[silverfoxes]

I very much doubt that anyone thinks that Aliona, Vanessa, Ksenia, Wenjing Sui, etc. are "silent, pretty dolls" and for sure, none of them lack visible muscle. Not sure why certain people think it's OK to stereotype other pairs girls while trying to defend Megan.

 

[andromache]

I very much doubt that anyone thinks that Aliona, Vanessa, Ksenia, Wenjing Sui, etc. are "silent, pretty dolls" and for sure, none of them lack visible muscle. Not sure why certain people think it's OK to stereotype other pairs girls while trying to defend Megan.

I'm not sure why Meagan gets criticized for things that everyone else does too?

 

[andromache]

Actually, pretty much all arts have competitions. There are recital prizes for dance and song and prizes for literature and music and pretty much any other art you can think of. There are prizes for films too.

Ahem, notice I used the words "live competition"?

Most people don't create art for the express purpose of winning a competition (aside from annoying pretentious Oscar movie directors, I guess). Figure skating is DIFFERENT.

 

[andromache]

Actually, i did notice live competition, and that's why included dance and song recitals (and also acting competitions). Yes film is a recorded medium, but I don't see what difference that makes. Figure skating is only different in your mind.

Actually, figure skating is different because it's an Olympic sport, as well. I don't think I hallucinated those medals and the ice with the Olympic rings, right?

Dance and music recitals do SOMETIMES involve competition (though this is definitely not always the case). However, the majority of music/dance performances are not for the purpose of competition.

Figure skating USUALLY involves competition. There is show skating, but that's not what we are talking about - but it sounds like that's what you should be watching instead of this.

And as for movies - well, if you want to pretend that Paul Blart: Mall Cop 2 is the same as figure skating, well then, I'm glad that works for you in your mind.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I've had enough of jibba-jabber so I'm going to go now! All the best to you!

Wait, you're the jibba-jabber specialist here so I have questions. I've never seen/head this term before and it seems to be a technical term in figure skating, so important that a Pair's hope for an Olympic Gold Medal will be dashed because of it. Can you direct me to anywhere it is referenced in the ISU rules, COP sclale of values, bulletins and communications? Are coaches trained about it so D/R might have a chance to learn to correct this technical or PCS error? Or a few fans' strong dislike of her "appalling" character will doom this team beyond hope of redemption, because these fans have immense influence on the judges?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

No, she is (or should be) giving a performance that is then judged as part of a competition. Do you expect an actor on stage to suddenly break out of character and yell "wowzers I said that line really well" Or a dance in Sleeping Beauty to fist bump someone else in the middle of the Rose Adagio. Because that's the equivalent of what she is doing. It just seems to me that you don't understand artistry: have you ever seen a play or been to theatre or maybe watched a film or been to a ballet?

But an actor and a ballet dancer aren't competing! Or sorry, giving a performance which is then judged as part of a competition, in your opinion.

If they're not competing then what do call doing jumps or throws or difficult lifts? That's competing! If it's just performing then that's an exhibition.

OMG. I can't.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Actually, yes didn't Eric comment on it in the post event interview. He said she was annoying him with going on about how they were going to win, and it actually enabled him to hold the lift for longer (through annoyance?).

What's the exact quote? Because you seem to have confused even yourself.

 

[nocturnalis]

Or men who fist-pump during performances, or actually yell (looking at you, Scott Moir), etc.

Same reason why Meagan gets hate for having muscles. GOD FORBID an Olympic-level athlete have visible musculature AND be a woman.

It's not like Scott doesn't get criticized. Before Nikita became the worst, Scott was easily the most disliked ice dancer.

 

[Ryan O]

Is John Z working with Vanessa/Morgan still? I hope so. I loved them for quite a long time, and their this past season's breakthrough was just . And seeing both John Z & Morgan in KnC was truly a feast to my eyes :luv17:. Thruout the season, I was sort of wondering which one was hotter but couldn't really decide tbh, you know... :

Anyway, good luck to Meagan & Eric in the new season!

Zimmerman may be good looking, but he doesn't have the experience of Gauthier.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Everyone, in a way this is no different than what Nathan Chen did when he stayed with Raf in California, but took trips to Michigan to work and consult with Zoueva as well.

Yes, D/H got rid of Gauthier, but they kept the Marcotte's and then they are using Zimmerman and Kerr.

It's really not a huge deal other than giving them the shot in the arm they need for their final and Olympic season. I applaud this.

 

[4everchan]

Can't even to get to page 3 without some Meagan hate. It's a coach change. Coach changes have implications, which can lead to speculation, etc. Like, there is so much else to discuss besides saying nasty things about a woman who likes to talk and analyze her performance and share her feelings with her partner and her coach. God forbid a woman open her mouth. Luckily, Bruno, Eric, et al don't have such backwards ideas about women being more than pretty, silent dolls.

post of the week so far... but i am still catching up on many posts in the forum...

bowing to you andromache

 

[mrrice]

Zimmerman may be good looking, but he doesn't have the experience of Gauthier.

This is debatable.....He has certainly been a high level skater for a long time. He was National Champion 3 times and has a World medal and several top 10 finishes including a 5th place finish at the Olympics in 2002. His wife is also a talented skater and they may have the right words, or tactics, to get them to reach their final goal. They've won basically everything else in their career, haven't they?