Ekaterina Bobrova & Dmitri Soloviev

[solani]

We're repeating ourself again and again. The testing of 'B' sample is taking long time, weeks at least. They didn't want that delay. She basically thought, 'Oh man, I just stopped to use it in November so there probably some traces left in my blood'. See? She thought it was traces AND if she thought that, it means that 'B' sample will contain traces of Mildronat too. So there was NO POINT of testing that 'B' sample. None. Zero. It would only be a wasting of time. So they decided (I'm sure it was not Katia's sole decision, but the Fed's as well) to fix that 'misunderstanding' as soon as possible and contacted WADA. When WADA responded, and Katia saw the amount of that thing in her blood, it was once again pointless, not to mention too late. Because it's there, in her blood, and she can do nothing about it now.
Since she declined to test her 'B' sample, she confirmed basically that she's 'guilty' and it will be counted during the negotiation of the time of her disqualification. After her 'B' sample test she would be 'proved guilty' too. It's not 'at least trying to get the B sample tested', it's more like to choose a lesser from two evils.
Just think about it. It's a rational and logical decision. I absolutely 100% agree with it, and I most probably would do the same in her position.

Because it would be positive too.

That's the question, isn't it? If she is sure that she herself didn't take it she needs to find out how it got into her system. I'm sure the investigations in her team are ongoing. If they find out how it got into her system then you're right, no need to try to have the B sample tested. But if they don't only three possibilities remain:
1. this rumor about accumulation of the substance is true, scientists will look into that.
2. someone put it in her drink/food
3. there was a mix up or a false positive result at the lab
And she and her team would want to exclude the 3rd possibility (and there have been mix up's and false postive results in labs, not many, but there are cases).
And it's important, because yes, they cannot start at Worlds, so much is clear now, but if they want to continue their career the duration of the ban (if a ban is necessary!) is all important.
If they decide to not try to have the B sample tested they either
found how it got into her system or
they rely on this accumulation of the substance thing (but I think that nothing will come from that ...) or
the Russian Sports Ministry is making a deal with the WADA regarding all those doping cases.

 

[Snow63]

That's the question, isn't it? If she is sure that she herself didn't take it she needs to find out how it got into her system. I'm sure the investigations in her team are ongoing. If they find out how it got into her system then you're right, no need to try to have the B sample tested. But if they don't only three possibilities remain:
1. this rumor about accumulation of the substance is true, scientists will look into that.
2. someone put it in her drink/food
3. there was a mix up or a false positive result at the lab
And she and her team would want to exclude the 3rd possibility (and there have been mix up's and false postive results in labs, not many, but there are cases).
And it's important, because yes, they cannot start at Worlds, so much is clear now, but if they want to continue their career the duration of the ban (if a ban is necessary!) is all important.
If they decide to not try to have the B sample tested they either
found how it got into her system or
they rely on this accumulation of the substance thing (but I think that nothing will come from that ...) or
the Russian Sports Ministry is making a deal with the WADA regarding all those doping cases.

...or they believe it's there, because WADA is not the only one who test athletes. Doesn't mean they found out how it got in there. I'm not arguing with you, you definitely have a point, I just see where they came from with that decision and I find it logical and solid. Not suspicious and weird, and especially stupid.

By the way, is there any case where athlete declined to test 'B' sample and then changed his mind? I tried to google it but found nothing, not even a procedure if it's possible at all. Asaik, athlete sends some kind of written decline paper to WADA. Is it true?

And one more thing, today at 15:00 (Moscow time) will take place press-conference with Alexey Kravtsov. I expect more news.

One more interesting fact. Russia's speed skater's Kulizhnikov's 'A' sample which was taken on 13th of Fubruary (after he won 1000 meters at World Championships) was clean according to TASS. Which means there was only one evening for him to use it between 13th and 14th, because on 14th on February after his second win, it was positive for Meldonium. I don't know, I don't believe in such coincidences. Same thing basically happened to Ekaterina. The dose was injected in her blood not earlier than 24 hours prior to taking samples. I expect it to be one of the biggest scandals ever. You all just watch. http://tass.ru/sport/2723318

 

[solani]

...or they believe it's there, because WADA is not the only one who test athletes. Doesn't mean they found out how it got in there. I'm not arguing with you, you definitely have a point, I just see where they came from with that decision and I find it logical and solid. Not suspicious and weird, and especially stupid.

By the way, is there any case where athlete declined to test 'B' sample and then changed his mind? I tried to google it but found nothing, not even a procedure if it's possible at all. Asaik, athlete sends some kind of written decline paper to WADA. Is it true?

And one more thing, today at 15:00 (Moscow time) will take place press-conference with Alexey Kravtsov. I expect more news.

One more interesting fact. Russia's speed skater's Kulizhnikov's 'A' sample which was taken on 13th of Fubruary (after he won 1000 meters at World Championships) was clean according to TASS. Which means there was only one evening for him to use it between 13th and 14th, because on 14th on February after his second win, it was positive for Meldonium. I don't know, I don't believe in such coincidences. Same thing basically happened to Ekaterina. The dose was injected in her blood not earlier than 24 hours prior to taking samples. I expect it to be one of the biggest scandals ever. You all just watch. http://tass.ru/sport/2723318

The WADA can decide to test the B sample at any time, so I'm sure they would not decline the request, but I don't think that an athlete has ever requested it before. At least not right after they declined to have it tested. And yes, I think the have to send a signed letter that they don't want the B sample to be tested as far as I know.
The only explanation for that large number of positive tests is that the doctors/athletes didn't think that the WADA already had a test. And I can understand that the athletes might not think that taking meldonium is such a big deal, because they already took it for a couple of years.
Yes, it will be interesting how all those cases will be concluded. But to me it's not one of the biggest scandals. I hope that the athletes involved will be treated leniently.

 

[Snow63]

The WADA can decide to test the B sample at any time, so I'm sure they would not decline the request, but I don't think that an athlete has ever requested it before. At least not right after they declined to have it tested. And yes, I think the have to send a signed letter that they don't want the B sample to be tested as far as I know.
The only explanation for that large number of positive tests is that the doctors/athletes didn't think that the WADA already had a test. And I can understand that the athletes might not think that taking meldonium is such a big deal, because they already took it for a couple of years.
Yes, it will be interesting how all those cases will be concluded. But to me it's not one of the biggest scandals. I hope that the athletes involved will be treated leniently.

Well, I just wrote long-*** post and it got deleted somehow. So I'll just say I disagree that it's the 'only' explanation. And in each case explanation may be different. Someone could have taken it knowingly, someone didn't, someone got set-up, in some case the dose probably is very small and just accumulated from a couple of years. We don't know. I would not put equality sign between all this cases. The timing is weird, but only because all the main events were held in January and Meldonium got banned in 2016.

 

[Sugarpova]

Yeah, I'm actually surprised by support. Usually it's not very welcomed when athletes show open support for other athletes who got caught on doping. So that's a toughing gesture, that's for sure.

they know its BS & stand united b/c even an outsider would know that Katia is a sensible gal

 

[Snow63]

Two more things:

Averbukh is sure that it's doctor's 'mistake', he says that doctor knew exactly what he gave to Katia. Of course she should have checked it, but he says athletes 100% trust National team's doctors. The question is why.
Source: http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20160309/902640875.html

More important: there are more athletes under ISU who were tested positive. The ISU confirms that there exist other A-Sample Adverse Analytical Findings for certain skaters. However, the concerned individuals have requested the analysis of their B-Samples. Therefore the ISU will undertake public disclosure of those cases only if the respective B-Samples should be confirmed positive.
Source: http://www.isu.org/en/news-and-events/news/2016/03/statement-adverse-analytical-finding

I only wonder if there's more skaters in that group. Obviously some short-trackers and speed skaters. But I wouldn't be surprised if there's more figure skaters too.

 

[NaVi]

I only wonder if there's more skaters in that group. Obviously some short-trackers and speed skaters. But I wouldn't be surprised if there's more figure skaters too.

The World Team has been announced, so I would be surprised if it's more figure skaters.

 

[Snow63]

The World Team has been announced, so I would be surprised if it's more figure skaters.

You have a point here, but you do understand that there is other skaters who don't go to Worlds, right? Not to mention that Euros was not the only competition in these past two months. So you never know.

 

[Snow63]

Okay, so Kravtsov said they have solid grounds for fighting for full justification of athletes who are suspected of having used meldonium.

http://rsport.ru/skating/20160309/902647803.html

He's talking about speed skaters here, but who knows?


Also, they have information about other athletes from National team who have set-up suspected athletes (most probably by drugging their food/drinks with Meldonium? It's my remark). No names yet. All the materials will be sent to Great Britain.

http://rsport.ru/skating/20160309/902652237.html


Wow. What a mess. So Dima's suspicios may be proved correct after all..

 

[uhh]

Okay, so Kravtsov said they have solid grounds for fighting for full justification of athletes who are suspected of having used meldonium.

http://rsport.ru/skating/20160309/902647803.html

He's talking about speed skaters here, but who knows?


Also, they have information about other athletes from National team who have set-up suspected athletes (most probably by drugging their food/drinks with Meldonium? It's my remark). No names yet. All the materials will be sent to Great Britain.

http://rsport.ru/skating/20160309/902652237.html


Wow. What a mess. So Dima's suspicios may be proved correct after all..

I have read that it couldn't be in the food or drink, because stomach acid breaks the substance down so a) it has no effect and b) it wouldn't have been detectable.

 

[Snow63]

I have read that it couldn't be in the food or drink, because stomach acid breaks the substance down so a) it has no effect and b) it wouldn't have been detectable.

Well, he didn't said that it was food or drink, I just don't know what else it could be. And it's actually very interesting you posted that, because Kulizhnikov's father said that used tablets up to September, not injections. So many questions... oh my god. I smell scandal.

 

[Sugarpova]

Okay, so Kravtsov said they have solid grounds for fighting for full justification of athletes who are suspected of having used meldonium.

this sounds positive

well I try to find positives as usual!

 

[tvuckic16]

Well, he didn't said that it was food or drink, I just don't know what else it could be. And it's actually very interesting you posted that, because Kulizhnikov's father said that used tablets up to September, not injections. So many questions... oh my god. I smell scandal.

Tablets can be coated to protect the substance from stomach acid. Different coating dissolve at different pH etc etc. Still, it is much harder to slip a pill/tablet to someone than spike their food or drink.

My guess is she took it as a standard regiment of dietary supplements etc. or injections without being fully aware of what she was taking. Unfortunately, plausible deniability is not enough to not get you suspended.

 

[solani]

Well, I just wrote long-*** post and it got deleted somehow. So I'll just say I disagree that it's the 'only' explanation. And in each case explanation may be different. Someone could have taken it knowingly, someone didn't, someone got set-up, in some case the dose probably is very small and just accumulated from a couple of years. We don't know. I would not put equality sign between all this cases. The timing is weird, but only because all the main events were held in January and Meldonium got banned in 2016.

I agree, the reasons could be different in all those cases, thats what I meant when I wrote athletes/doctors. If doctors are using substances without the knowledge of the (legally sane) athlete it's a crime (bodily harm). And I'm sure the WADA has a threshold for this substance also, if only traces are detected it shouldn't lead to a positive test. I must say that today I'm rather sure that Bobrova didn't get set-up, because she was among the first who got caught with that substance, so a criminal who'd want to set her up would use a different substance, like a diuretic agent.

 

[Snow63]

Tablets can be coated to protect the substance from stomach acid. Different coating dissolve at different pH etc etc. Still, it is much harder to slip a pill/tablet to someone than spike their food or drink.

My guess is she took it as a standard regiment of dietary supplements etc. or injections without being fully aware of what she was taking. Unfortunately, plausible deniability is not enough to not get you suspended.

Today there was an expirement on Match TV, where head doctor of Russian National soccer team Eduard Bezuglov used capsules of Mildronat. He mixed it with some water, it dissolved without a trace in a couple of minutes. He even tasted it and said it's a bit sweet without any sharp taste or smell or colour. So, really, why not? I know it sounds kinda unrealistic, but in case of Bobrova and Kulizhnikov, when both athletes waited for so damn long to compete again, I'd rather believe in that than in knowing use of banned substances by them or their doctors. I mean if it's doctors then why only them two got drugged and not entire team? Besides their doses were 'gigantic' according to Bobrova herself and Kravtsov. Kravtsov said the dose in Kulizhnikov's blood was so high that it only could have get into his system in the morning of the day of competition, which is the next day after another competition that he won without Meldonium. Who does that? Especially the second time in his career, when his career is on the line. Same with Bobrova.
You can call me a believer if you want, or deluded person, or whatever.

 

[Snow63]

this sounds positive

well I try to find positive!

It's, in fact, way more positive than I expected it to be. I mean press-conference. It sounds like they actually have plan and believe in it. I doubt they will prove athletes completely innocent, but 1 year disqualification will be okay with me. I think now 6 months is too optimistic, but that's what Ukrainian biathlonists get (unofficially yet).

 

[tvuckic16]

Today there was an expirement on Match TV, where head doctor of Russian National soccer team Eduard Bezuglov used capsules of Mildronat. He mixed it with some water, it dissolved without a trace in a couple of minutes. He even tasted it and said it's a bit sweet without any sharp taste or smell or colour. So, really, why not? I know it sounds kinda unrealistic, but in case of Bobrova and Kulizhnikov, when both athletes waited for so damn long to compete again, I'd rather believe in that than in knowing use of banned substances by them or their doctors. I mean if it's doctors then why only them two got drugged and not entire team? Besides their doses were 'gigantic' according to Bobrova herself and Kravtsov. Kravtsov said the dose in Kulizhnikov's blood was so high that it only could have get into his system in the morning of the day of competition, which is the next day after another competition that he won without Meldonium. Who does that? Especially the second time in his career, when his career is on the line. Same with Bobrova.
You can call me a believer if you want, or deluded person, or whatever.

Yes, but once the tablet dissolves in water the drug is susceptible to the stomach acid. You need the coating of the tablet to protect the drug from the stomach acid. The coating is usually pH sensitive so it won't dissolve in acid. There are in fact many different types of coatings designed for specific needs. For example some medicines have timed release coating even.

So, she would have had to take a pill or injection to test positive, especially with gigantic results.

 

[Snow63]

Yes, but once the tablet dissolves in water the drug is susceptible to the stomach acid. You need the coating of the tablet to protect the drug from the stomach acid. The coating is usually pH sensitive so it won't dissolve in acid. There are in fact many different types of coatings designed for specific needs. For example some medicines have timed release coating even.

So, she would have had to take a pill or injection to test positive, especially with gigantic results.

I think if the dose is big, which is the case, everything's possible. Where is the guarantee that if you dissolve half pack (for example) of Mildronat and drink/eat that substance, that the test would be negative? Can't wait to hear the outcome.

 

[Snow63]

Ekaterina Bobrova about her positive doping test

'At the beginning of autumn we were warned that mildronate and any other products containing meldonium, will be banned from January. And in general we are constantly warned about the need to be extremely cautious in taking any pharmacological substances. Reminded that the attention to the Russian athletes are incredibly high. In any case, I recheck every medications even in the home medicine chest, to eliminate completely the drugs that might contain any whatsoever number of illegal components.'

'Do you admit that illegal drugs could get to your body with food or drinks?

Ekaterina: The only possible option – to take my thermos from my bag in the locker room and to mix something in there. But honestly, I don’t believe in such possibility.'

Source: http://fs-gossips.com/ekaterina-bobrova-about-her-positive-doping-test/

I don't like how some things were translated honestly, they sound kinda different in Russian, but overall that's a lot of information. Nothing new, though. The more I think about it, the more I agree with Averbukh and Vaitsekhovskaia that it's most probably doctor's 'mistake'. Intentional or not, we will never now. I only hope that will be proved in the end and Ekaterina will skate competitively again.

Also, there is another interview on Russian with some anonymous person who claims that Bobrova's case is 'dead end', and it's basically decided that she'll get the whole 2 years ban without any options. That the Fed basically gave her up. I will not post the link here, sorry. But just know that such speculation could show up, I hope it's not legit though.

 

[dorispulaski]

Has the doctor who administered the injection been interviewed?