Elizaveta's triple A

[drivingmissdaisy]

As great as the jump looks in this clip, the real question is what % of her attempts are successfully rotated and landed in practice?

In the competitive and exhibition clips I've seen, which include failed attempts, each one looked rotated enough to get full credit.

 

[Krislite]

As great as the jump looks in this clip, the real question is what % of her attempts are successfully rotated and landed in practice?

It's a good question, but what matters in the end is her jump consistency on competitive ice, not practice.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

After seeing the footage I'm less inclined to think she will bring it to the WC's this season. While that jump should get full BV .... .....that free leg tells me that this isn't a jump she is landing more times than not.

Congrats to her for pulling it off in competition. and more #girlCANjump

 

[sabinfire]

It's an interestingly worded thought. I think we are all probably curious about the reliability of a newly added element this late in the season. In any event, seeing the results so far is very promising heading into next season.

Although I have to admit my first reaction was a bit of confusion. Seems reasonable to question the ability of a skater in executing a new difficult element in competition in reaction to seeing/hearing about the 3A being done in practice, but flipping that around to seeing the 3A executed well in competition and questioning the consistency in practice -- got a bit of from me.

 

[sabinfire]

After seeing the footage I'm less inclined to think she will bring it to the WC's this season. While that jump should get full BV .... .....that free leg tells me that this isn't a jump she is landing more times than not.

Probably not -- on both the WC and consistency parts. Full BV, but no GOE? (I'm guessing you already knew this jump received +2 GOE.) I'm inclined to think that this jump, executed in this way, would likely receive positive GOE at Europeans/Worlds this season, simply for the fact that there is really nothing else to compare it with in the current field of competitive skaters -- though I am not saying I agree with that logic or that this jump does not deserve positive GOE.

 

[Sandpiper]

I expect +1 if she gets it credited at Worlds. Maybe a few stray +2s. I have no objection to that (except for the fact that Mao often got 0 for her 3A even when rotated... but that's a case of one skater being underscored, not another being overscored).

 

[sabinfire]

I expect +1 if she gets it credited at Worlds. Maybe a few stray +2s. I have no objection to that (except for the fact that Mao often got 0 for her 3A even when rotated... but that's a case of one skater being underscored, not another being overscored).

That's about what I would expect, as well. Possibly a bit higher, since she's one of the darlings in ladies skating right now... but I'm sure that will not last forever. The stray +3 on this 3A was a real :scratch: but at least they stayed within 2 points overall. It's been those instances where there's a +3 point differential in grading a jump GOE... really, are we seeing the same jump that differently?

 

[karne]

She will bring it at Worlds. I'm even more certain now that she's said she just "lost focus". Because that's a one-time mistake.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Who knows what the judges will do To me that is half of the fun I guess

My thinking would be that while its a good 3a, is this really a +2 jump? I mean when Liza becomes more comfortable with it I expect it to look much better and confident like her other jumps. What then? There is no +4 and I suspect she can make this jump look that much better. These are thoughts I would expect to enter into the judges minds or is my thinking askew here?

Who really knows though? Will she do it and if so how well will it go down? Thank god for extra buttery

 

[Sandpiper]

That's about what I would expect, as well. Possibly a bit higher, since she's one of the darlings in ladies skating right now... but I'm sure that will not last forever. The stray +3 on this 3A was a real :scratch: but at least they stayed within 2 points overall. It's been those instances where there's a +3 point differential in grading a jump GOE... really, are we seeing the same jump that differently?

I don't think it's because she's one of the darlings of ladies skating (though that helps). I think it's because she has the reputation of being a good jumper, with no edge/UR problems. With the way GOE is tied with edge/UR issues--even if the jump is otherwise good--Mao's GOE was affected by the judges' perception of her other problems. They'll be hesitant to throw out +2s and +3s for a jump that, under a different panel, could've been downgraded to a 2A with negative GOE (what happened circa. 2010).

I expect Liza's GOE to remain high... until one day, some tech panel decides to give her a UR call. Deserved or not.

A stray +3 at a small domestic competition doesn't seem all that far-fetched. There have been more baffling GOEs handed out this season, at major international events...

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think +1 is about right for this attempt, +2 if it's more controlled on the landing. She would probably need a difficult entrance and/or exit to get +3, but the jump is so rare (and undervalued IMO) that I don't mind a bit higher GOE than deserved.

 

[sabinfire]

Even at +2, I'm not sure it's worth the risk at Worlds in a couple weeks. I think any lady that can land the 3A in this manner (without a reputation of edge/UR issues) is going to receive a boost to their GOE, which I too do not mind if it will encourage more jump attempts like this one. But, maybe the real question is whether the BV should be increased so that GOE doesn't need to be awarded for 'wow' factor of seeing a rare jump landed successfully.

 

[chuckm]

Marks awarded at a domestic competition can't be compared to marks awarded by ISU judges. And a skater's nerves are going to be far more on edge at the most important competition of the year than they are at a 'small domestic competition'. Just not a comparable situation.

I can see why Liza would try 3a at such a competition because a failure wouldn't matter all that much. If she was getting 3a rotated and landed at 65-70% in practice, why not try it there? Worlds is a higher level of risk for a skater who has been winning all season without a 3a.

 

[Globetrotter]

Marks awarded at a domestic competition can't be compared to marks awarded by ISU judges. And a skater's nerves are going to be far more on edge at the most important competition of the year than they are at a 'small domestic competition'. Just not a comparable situation.

I can see why Liza would try 3a at such a competition because a failure wouldn't matter all that much. If she was getting 3a rotated and landed at 65-70% in practice, why not try it there? Worlds is a higher level of risk for a skater who has been winning all season without a 3a.

I agree. Ultimately, it is how the jump holds up under the nerves, pressure and expectations in major competitions that is the true litmus test. I think Tuks has little left to prove this season, so I am all for her going for it at Worlds. If she lands it with good height and coverage and good outflow, that will easily be +1 to +2. It is the confidence and the courage to go for it in a major competition that differentiates the true competitor from the good skaters. Mishin's students and proteges may not be the most artistic but they are certainly some of the strongest athletes and strong in the competitive mentality.

Although it is not objective, the exhibition of confidence and attack in facing a difficult element will also help in the PCS. The IN marks can move up a notch (extra fight) and a confident and exuberant skate will generate positive emotions in both judges and audience resulting in higher PE scores.

 

[andromache]

Even at +2, I'm not sure it's worth the risk at Worlds in a couple weeks. I think any lady that can land the 3A in this manner (without a reputation of edge/UR issues) is going to receive a boost to their GOE, which I too do not mind if it will encourage more jump attempts like this one. But, maybe the real question is whether the BV should be increased so that GOE doesn't need to be awarded for 'wow' factor of seeing a rare jump landed successfully.

I agree 100% with this comment. GOE scores in figure skating are questionable/debated enough as it is. If the ISU wants to reward rare jump attempts it should be in BV, and GOE should be used to reward quality only. BV scores reward difficulty.

As for whether or not Liza should try the 3A at Worlds, I'm on the fence. She's demonstrated throughout the season that she doesn't need it to beat Radionova, but I understand the desire to win decisively. I'm a Liza fan, and I'd love to see a successful 3A at Worlds from her, but I ultimately don't think it's worth the risk. If she was consistently losing to Radionova throughout the season I'd definitely want her to go for it, but given what a great season she's had...she's better off skating clean, comfortable, and selling the heck out of her programs.

 

[Sandpiper]

Even at +2, I'm not sure it's worth the risk at Worlds in a couple weeks. I think any lady that can land the 3A in this manner (without a reputation of edge/UR issues) is going to receive a boost to their GOE, which I too do not mind if it will encourage more jump attempts like this one. But, maybe the real question is whether the BV should be increased so that GOE doesn't need to be awarded for 'wow' factor of seeing a rare jump landed successfully.

I think the 3A's BV is okay, in the short, because it's such a huge upgrade from the 2A and worth big points if you can hit it (and, in theory, big points even if you miss... but your PCS takes a hit). Perhaps a bit more incentive to reward it/having it in combination in the LP, so that we can see Liza's 3A-2T someday in competition.

The real problem with 3A GOE, imo, is what do you compare it to? With 3-3s, you compare the ladies to each other. With 3A...? Someone once suggested that Mao got low GOEs for her 3A because the judges were comparing hers to the men's, due to a lack of reference. Our only reference is history, but even that's wonky: Not enough data, and the few ladies who did 3As did them so differently. Should we reward Liza's 3A for its cleanliness and how she's barely uses her arms at all on take-off? Or should we lower the GOE due to its lack of "Wow!" and sheer height?

A judge can give that 3A anywhere from 0 to +2, and I can kinda see where they're coming from. I don't think there's a solid answer until more ladies do 3A and we see what exactly is strong technique.

 

[Globetrotter]

The real problem with 3A GOE, imo, is what do you compare it to?

I am assuming that you are referring to lay audience rather than judges? I was just looking at what goes into GOEs for jumps. 1. Unexpected, creative, or difficult entry; 2. Clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element; 3. Varied position in the air and/or delay in rotation; 4. Great height and/or distance; 5. Superior extension on landing and/or creative exit; 6. Superior flow into and out of jump and throughout jump combinations/sequences. +1 = 1 to 2 bullet points; +2 = 3 to 4 bullet points; +3 = 5 to 6 bullet points.

Understand that unlike the men, ladies may find it much harder to do a 3A out of steps or through a difficult entry the way Han Yan and Yuzuru enters into their 3As. However, I think Midori Ito and Tonya Harding were both able to get points number 3 and 4 and Liza has a really good extension and smooth flow out of her jump exits. If she can hit points 3 and 4 and 5, I do believe that she can arguably receive +2 GOEs. Of course there is some degree of subjectivity, like what looks like good flow, great height etc. I suspect Asada could only reliably depend on point 4 and 5 but not the others consistently, so most often, she will only get a +1. If she gets hit by an UR call, then -2 will tag on and she ends up with an overall -1 to -2 GOE. Of course to lay audience, these -ve GOEs are outrageous as the UR may not be so apparent and certainly not disruptive to the element but judges have to apply negative GOEs.

Personally, I think if Tuks can gain greater ease and confidence in the 3A in competition, she can potentially get better GOEs than Asada due to her stronger jump techniques. Whether she can also develop the musicality and audience connection like Asada will be the greater unknown - I think this will be even harder to attain.

 

[chairmanmao]

Harding's 3A was a fluke. She only landed 4 of them in competition. She was no better than Kimmie Meissner IMHO. By the amount of attention it's been getting you think she was landing them 24/7 a la Hanyu.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I am assuming that you are referring to lay audience rather than judges? I was just looking at what goes into GOEs for jumps. 1. Unexpected, creative, or difficult entry; 2. Clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element; 3. Varied position in the air and/or delay in rotation; 4. Great height and/or distance; 5. Superior extension on landing and/or creative exit; 6. Superior flow into and out of jump and throughout jump combinations/sequences. +1 = 1 to 2 bullet points; +2 = 3 to 4 bullet points; +3 = 5 to 6 bullet points.

Understand that unlike the men, ladies may find it much harder to do a 3A out of steps or through a difficult entry the way Han Yan and Yuzuru enters into their 3As. However, I think Midori Ito and Tonya Harding were both able to get points number 3 and 4 and Liza has a really good extension and smooth flow out of her jump exits. If she can hit points 3 and 4 and 5, I do believe that she can arguably receive +2 GOEs. Of course there is some degree of subjectivity, like what looks like good flow, great height etc. I suspect Asada could only reliably depend on point 4 and 5 but not the others consistently, so most often, she will only get a +1. If she gets hit by an UR call, then -2 will tag on and she ends up with an overall -1 to -2 GOE. Of course to lay audience, these -ve GOEs are outrageous as the UR may not be so apparent and certainly not disruptive to the element but judges have to apply negative GOEs.

Personally, I think if Tuks can gain greater ease and confidence in the 3A in competition, she can potentially get better GOEs than Asada due to her stronger jump techniques. Whether she can also develop the musicality and audience connection like Asada will be the greater unknown - I think this will be even harder to attain.

FWIW: ISU doesn't use the terminology "superior" and the amount of bullets hit to garner GOE you posted isn't quite correct. Keep in mind that the ISU only "suggests" the following guideline to awarding GOE.

To establish the starting GOE Judges must take into consideration the bullets for each element. It is at the discretion of each Judge to decide on the number of bullets for any upgrade, but general recommendations are as follows:

FOR + 1 : 2 bullets
FOR + 2 : 4 bullets
FOR + 3 : 6 or more bullets

As for the bullets themselves that they use.....

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

IMHO going forward the only points Liza will be likely to get would be points 4,5,6,7,8. If I were to judge the jump in the video I think I would only be able to give credit for #4. That's why I think I would only give this jump +O GOE myself but I could understand a case as to why someone might give it a +1. Personally I think giving it +2 is quite generous but in the end....the guideline of two bullets to earn a +1 isn't set in stone. Some posters really hedge jump quality on height above all other aspects of a jump and I'm sure some judges do too. So these people would probably feel comfortable going above and beyond to offer this jump a +1 or even a +2. This is why I never waste my time saying a skater did or didn't deserve GOE they received or didn't receive. The rules are subject to interpreration and come down to what are in the end only recommendations.

In general I'd like to think if you are going to award positive GOE for 5 and 6 when a jump is smooth and effortless then when a landing is eeked out and/or disruptive, I would expect the judges to work those points negatively against any positive bullets already awarded. So if you establish 4,8 but have a sketchy landing that kills the flow I would think a 0 or +1 would be the most fair. That is just me though and what is important to me may not be as important to another judge/poster.

 

[Sandpiper]

I personally think the guidelines are... kinda BS. Sorry. But #1 and #2 are basically identical, and for #1, #2, and #5 you already get rewarded in the transitions mark, so it's pretty redundant for those to be rewarded again (and three times!). It's also weird to me for something like #3 to be rewarded the same as #4 or #5. Is Evgenia supposed to get the same GOE as Wakaba or Liza then?

Granted, as Sam noted, they're just suggestions. Therefore, I don't think we should weigh every bullet equally and mark off which points it checks to judge GOE. I don't think the judges do that either (nor should they).

#4, #6, and #7 are the essence of the jump itself (#5 is part of #6). #3 too, I guess, when it's used in moderate amounts. Anything else, imo, is fluff and should be rewarded in TR (#1, #2) or INT (#8).