- Joined
- May 15, 2009
I neve knew the Olympics were the only measuring stick for skating (and other sports) :think:
Peggy Fleming did a spread eagle into a 2A back to a spread eagle 30 years before Ilia.
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Elvis vs Ilia 1998
- Thread starter janetfan
- Start date
I neve knew the Olympics were the only measuring stick for skating (and other sports) :think:
Peggy Fleming did a spread eagle into a 2A back to a spread eagle 30 years before Ilia.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
As someone who has never watched a pageant (besides figure skating, I suppose) in my life I'm not sure how to respond to being characterized as a pageant fan.
But the Olympics was only one of the points addressed in my original post, and it is entirely ridiculous if you think that adding an extra revolution to a move like a spread eagle-axel is no big deal, and that doing a 3A instead of a 2A is mere "copying". Adding that one extra revolution takes that much more strength, precision, timing, etc and takes the element onto a whole other level. There's a reason why quite a few skaters (ladies and men alike) can do a spread eagle-2A while the list of skaters who have managed a spread eagle-3A is considerably shorter, even for men. And frankly, Ilia's spread eagle-3A was the best I've ever seen. He actually holds the spread eagle until a split-second before he launches into the jump while maintaining impressive speed the whole time. But I guess all the technical skill involved in doing that element is just pageant-ish dazzle and flash and of course has no place in the totally serious sport of figure skating.
And I really prefer to have this discussion without the disingenuous insinuations or rudeness even if you disagree with me.
But the Olympics was only one of the points addressed in my original post, and it is entirely ridiculous if you think that adding an extra revolution to a move like a spread eagle-axel is no big deal, and that doing a 3A instead of a 2A is mere "copying". Adding that one extra revolution takes that much more strength, precision, timing, etc and takes the element onto a whole other level. There's a reason why quite a few skaters (ladies and men alike) can do a spread eagle-2A while the list of skaters who have managed a spread eagle-3A is considerably shorter, even for men. And frankly, Ilia's spread eagle-3A was the best I've ever seen. He actually holds the spread eagle until a split-second before he launches into the jump while maintaining impressive speed the whole time. But I guess all the technical skill involved in doing that element is just pageant-ish dazzle and flash and of course has no place in the totally serious sport of figure skating.
And I really prefer to have this discussion without the disingenuous insinuations or rudeness even if you disagree with me.
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The story about Yags is mostly correct. He was fourth in the SP and then got sick before the FS and dropped to 5th. He was all raw talent back then but he could be sloppy and wild at times also. Still he was the current World bronze medallist and European champ (Kulik did not compete) going into Nagano. Of course a couple of months later he won Worlds against a severely depleted field.
Jaana makes a good point which I was also thinking about. Given that much of the focus of this thread has been on whether or not Elvis's injuries and illness in Nagano hampered his chances of winning, the GPF that season is an excellent comparative competition. Stojko, Eldredge, Kulik, Yagudin and even Plushenko were all there. Only Candeloro was missing of the Nagano top 5. Elvis was publicly healthy, no mention of groin issues or illness. He won the SP with Kulik 2nd and Todd 3rd. Ilia won the FS rather convincingly as Hersh recounts in his write-up of the event from back in 97 ( http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...222_1_elvis-stojko-triple-jumps-todd-eldredge ). Even then, two months before Nagano, it was apparent at least to Hersh that the scenario was unfolding to favor Kulik if all skated relatively equally.
I'm confused, so has this whole thread and your positions taken during it been about your admiration for Elvis as a jumping innovator or is it about his competitive record or is it his overall quality as a skater? I admit that Elvis made the quad a more standard element in skating and for that he should be given great credit. But my point and the points of many others is the rest of his skating outside the quantity and difficulty of his jumps was lacking. Even his jumps themselves were not always of the best quality. I think that I am looking at this argument from the perspective of overall skating quality, not just innovation, jumps, or medal totals. It isn't a matter of pageantry to point out that Elvis' basic spinning positions were poor. His free leg in his camel was almost always hanging down and was not at least parallel to his hip. In his back sit spin he looked more like he was doing toe touches than achieving a sitting position. His rear end was actually pointed upward and his hips were not at least parallel with his skating knee while his free leg is not extended . That is a a very poor sit spin position. One which would not even get credit under COP now. These are not mere aesthetic criticisms. These are technical deficiencies. A good spinning position done and maintained at good speed and with a solid center is hard and and far more difficult to do than a weakly positioned spin. It's hard to learn and maintain proper technique for anything, but once it is learned it can be and usually is beautiful. Now you could argue that his positions were affected by his body type, but then you'd have to assume that all skaters with that body type had poor spinning positions. Except that turns out not to be true.
Look at Fumio Igarashi and Mitsuru Matsumura
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip6Yd88K2mU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctx7Pwx71Uk&feature=related
Both were about the same size and build as Elvis and both had far better basic spinning positions than him. So it's certainly possible. Of course Paul Wylie was the exact same height as Elvis and had gorgeous basic spinning positions. He had a slightly different build however.
Also, to reiterate a point I made earlier in the thread about quantity vs quality, here are some clips of Volkov, Hoffman, Kovalev, Cranston, Curry and Cousins. As I noted, Volkov, Kovalev and Hoffman won 5 worlds, 2 Olympic silvers, multiple Euro titles, other world medals and did all of this over two or more Olympic cycles. They were obviously not bad skaters. They were excellent at figures and were solid free skaters. In fact they often did a greater quantity of jumps which, especially in Hoffman's case, were frequently more difficult than their competitors. They were just very straightforward skaters who were not as complete as Cranston, Cousins or Curry. I think completeness is the key. In the biggest events, judges are looking for the most complete skater possible to place first.
Volkov (came into the 76 Olys as WC, bombed and place 5th. His programs are downloadable from the links below.)
http://www.frogsonice.com/video/soviet-guys/
Kovalev (79 WC 1st overall, his peak year; was out of shape by 1980 and WD from Olys before they began.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2DP9LCrXQE
Hoffman (1980 Oly SP and 1980 WC FS; Uncle Dick's commentary sums up Jan's qualities very well. BTW, this is easily the best FS of Hoffman's career.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaiGf7xd6Bw SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV3x8GJHm0w&feature=related FS
Cousins
(Here's a young Robin newly healed from knee surgery at 78 WC. Debbi Wilkes and Otto Jelinek's comments about his spinning and ease of movement causing him to stand out are notable.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGPZtrKOFwo&feature=related
Here are his 1980 programs. His opening camel in his FS is worth any jump. Its position is what every skater should aspire tor emulate in my opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj8DY0J3dAA 1980 Oly SP (Note how much more fleet of foot he is compared to Hoffman. Better spins, speed and overall basic quality throughout the program)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUvxZIeq7a8 1980 WC FS (I included this one b/c it's actually stronger than his Oly FS. Robin finished second overall b/c of a fall in the SP. Had he been clean in that segment, he would have won overall.)
Then of course we have Cranston and Curry. No descriptions are needed for these two giants. No one cares how many or what color medals they won. Their skating was magnificent all on it's own. That's what attracts people to skating. Quality of this magnitude.
Cranston
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGDW0yNQDiY 75 SkateCanada SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9J4EJVoe-w 74 Worlds FS
Curry
http://www.videohippy.com/video/88004/1976-Olympics--John-Curry-SP--LP
Jaana makes a good point which I was also thinking about. Given that much of the focus of this thread has been on whether or not Elvis's injuries and illness in Nagano hampered his chances of winning, the GPF that season is an excellent comparative competition. Stojko, Eldredge, Kulik, Yagudin and even Plushenko were all there. Only Candeloro was missing of the Nagano top 5. Elvis was publicly healthy, no mention of groin issues or illness. He won the SP with Kulik 2nd and Todd 3rd. Ilia won the FS rather convincingly as Hersh recounts in his write-up of the event from back in 97 ( http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...222_1_elvis-stojko-triple-jumps-todd-eldredge ). Even then, two months before Nagano, it was apparent at least to Hersh that the scenario was unfolding to favor Kulik if all skated relatively equally.
I'm confused, so has this whole thread and your positions taken during it been about your admiration for Elvis as a jumping innovator or is it about his competitive record or is it his overall quality as a skater? I admit that Elvis made the quad a more standard element in skating and for that he should be given great credit. But my point and the points of many others is the rest of his skating outside the quantity and difficulty of his jumps was lacking. Even his jumps themselves were not always of the best quality. I think that I am looking at this argument from the perspective of overall skating quality, not just innovation, jumps, or medal totals. It isn't a matter of pageantry to point out that Elvis' basic spinning positions were poor. His free leg in his camel was almost always hanging down and was not at least parallel to his hip. In his back sit spin he looked more like he was doing toe touches than achieving a sitting position. His rear end was actually pointed upward and his hips were not at least parallel with his skating knee while his free leg is not extended . That is a a very poor sit spin position. One which would not even get credit under COP now. These are not mere aesthetic criticisms. These are technical deficiencies. A good spinning position done and maintained at good speed and with a solid center is hard and and far more difficult to do than a weakly positioned spin. It's hard to learn and maintain proper technique for anything, but once it is learned it can be and usually is beautiful. Now you could argue that his positions were affected by his body type, but then you'd have to assume that all skaters with that body type had poor spinning positions. Except that turns out not to be true.
Look at Fumio Igarashi and Mitsuru Matsumura
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip6Yd88K2mU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctx7Pwx71Uk&feature=related
Both were about the same size and build as Elvis and both had far better basic spinning positions than him. So it's certainly possible. Of course Paul Wylie was the exact same height as Elvis and had gorgeous basic spinning positions. He had a slightly different build however.
Also, to reiterate a point I made earlier in the thread about quantity vs quality, here are some clips of Volkov, Hoffman, Kovalev, Cranston, Curry and Cousins. As I noted, Volkov, Kovalev and Hoffman won 5 worlds, 2 Olympic silvers, multiple Euro titles, other world medals and did all of this over two or more Olympic cycles. They were obviously not bad skaters. They were excellent at figures and were solid free skaters. In fact they often did a greater quantity of jumps which, especially in Hoffman's case, were frequently more difficult than their competitors. They were just very straightforward skaters who were not as complete as Cranston, Cousins or Curry. I think completeness is the key. In the biggest events, judges are looking for the most complete skater possible to place first.
Volkov (came into the 76 Olys as WC, bombed and place 5th. His programs are downloadable from the links below.)
http://www.frogsonice.com/video/soviet-guys/
Kovalev (79 WC 1st overall, his peak year; was out of shape by 1980 and WD from Olys before they began.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2DP9LCrXQE
Hoffman (1980 Oly SP and 1980 WC FS; Uncle Dick's commentary sums up Jan's qualities very well. BTW, this is easily the best FS of Hoffman's career.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaiGf7xd6Bw SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV3x8GJHm0w&feature=related FS
Cousins
(Here's a young Robin newly healed from knee surgery at 78 WC. Debbi Wilkes and Otto Jelinek's comments about his spinning and ease of movement causing him to stand out are notable.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGPZtrKOFwo&feature=related
Here are his 1980 programs. His opening camel in his FS is worth any jump. Its position is what every skater should aspire tor emulate in my opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj8DY0J3dAA 1980 Oly SP (Note how much more fleet of foot he is compared to Hoffman. Better spins, speed and overall basic quality throughout the program)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUvxZIeq7a8 1980 WC FS (I included this one b/c it's actually stronger than his Oly FS. Robin finished second overall b/c of a fall in the SP. Had he been clean in that segment, he would have won overall.)
Then of course we have Cranston and Curry. No descriptions are needed for these two giants. No one cares how many or what color medals they won. Their skating was magnificent all on it's own. That's what attracts people to skating. Quality of this magnitude.
Cranston
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGDW0yNQDiY 75 SkateCanada SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9J4EJVoe-w 74 Worlds FS
Curry
http://www.videohippy.com/video/88004/1976-Olympics--John-Curry-SP--LP
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Evangeline is right about the spread eagle axel combo. In fact after Peggy retired, no one, man or woman really did that specific jump directly out of the spread eagle until Kulik. There was always at least three turn in between the two moves which is of course much easier. Roz Sumners and Lisa Marie Allen came closest IIRC by doing an Ina Bauer into a 2a. After Ilia, the next skaters I remember doing it were Shen and Zhao in their Nessun Dorma program. It's not an easy move, especially for female skaters because of the hip placement. Most ladies skaters don't have good outside spread eagles because their rear ends are stuck out to maintain balance. Peggy's body like was straight as a stick. One of the best spread eagles ever. That allowed her to set up well for the 2a.
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Jcoates, I so enjoy your last two posts. I never could have said any of it with such eloquent detail. Please keep talking! I think I've learned something new from each of your recent commentaries. While I do feel that Elvis was a breath of fresh air in skating for several reasons, as I've said before, I agree with you that in terms of absolute quality of technique, he'll never come out with the top ranking. Purely subjectively, I'm glad that someone like Stojko made a place for himself in skating. As I said, he had his own kind of grace. But one other way to put his quality in context alongside Ilia's is to watch what they did afterwards. Elvis never grew but continued with the same approach. Kulik developed such amazing dimension and maturity as a pro.
And thanks for spotlighting Peggy Fleming especially. She's not talked about much these days, and she was a skater who had quality in every aspect of her arsenal. It's almost unheard of to find (in the days when such a thing mattered) an artistic, technically strong skater who was also a specialist in school figures. In some ways Peggy's rep these days is overshadowed by Janet Lynn (whose school figures were often her downfall), but I think of both these ladies in one breath of excellence, each deserving of esteem. Peggy's Olympic win was one of the more satisfying ones in history, even though that particular long program wasn't considered her strongest. She truly was the top skater of her era and deserved to win, much the way John Curry and YuNa Kim deserved the gold in their respective Games.
I will go and look at Fleming's spread eagle with the details you mentioned in mind—I never thought about the move this analytically before. Thanks again!
And thanks for spotlighting Peggy Fleming especially. She's not talked about much these days, and she was a skater who had quality in every aspect of her arsenal. It's almost unheard of to find (in the days when such a thing mattered) an artistic, technically strong skater who was also a specialist in school figures. In some ways Peggy's rep these days is overshadowed by Janet Lynn (whose school figures were often her downfall), but I think of both these ladies in one breath of excellence, each deserving of esteem. Peggy's Olympic win was one of the more satisfying ones in history, even though that particular long program wasn't considered her strongest. She truly was the top skater of her era and deserved to win, much the way John Curry and YuNa Kim deserved the gold in their respective Games.
I will go and look at Fleming's spread eagle with the details you mentioned in mind—I never thought about the move this analytically before. Thanks again!
Thanks Olympia. 
I have been a fan of skating for virtually my entire entire life (since I was in preschool). But I really started taking it seriously because of Peggy and later John Curry. As you can tell, when I get serious about something I research the heck out of it. In the 80's Peggy was performing less and was mostly doing a lot of commentary for ABC. I worshiped her pairing with Uncle Dick. They were heaven for me. Everyone knew she was a skating icon, but I had of course never seen her compete live as an amateur. Being a pre-youtube world, I was entirely dependent on the very occasional benevolence of ABC's skating archive breaking out a clip of Peggy during Wide World of Sports. Virtually everything she did competitively had disappeared from any video format. People just did not collect and share video like they do now. So I read up on her voraciously. In the 80's an early nineties, skating books and encyclopedia articles, especially more general ones only covered Uncle Dick, Peggy, John Curry, Irina Rodnina and Torvill and Dean. Sadly, even TD's Bolero was not shown in its complete form for years after 84 until they began their comeback. It wasn't until the 90's when I purchased Magic Memories on Ice that I got to see her 68 FS (from nationals) in its entirety along with Curry, TD, Tai and Randy at 79 WC etc. After 15 years of waiting and searching, I was not disappointed. Of course, since then many kind souls have shared their clips of Peggy and others as both competitors and performers and several documentaries have been produced chronicling their eras. Reflections on Ice and Fire on Ice along with Peggy and Dorothy were my favorites.
Janet does get more attention these days, but to be fair to her, she virtually disappeared from skating for years at a time in order to give birth to and raise her children. Meanwhile Peggy chose to balance motherhood, show skating and commentary so she was much more in the public consciousness. Now that they have both moved on to more private lives and many young girls are being coached by former skaters who came of age during Janet's era, they are being made more aware of her.
I have been a fan of skating for virtually my entire entire life (since I was in preschool). But I really started taking it seriously because of Peggy and later John Curry. As you can tell, when I get serious about something I research the heck out of it. In the 80's Peggy was performing less and was mostly doing a lot of commentary for ABC. I worshiped her pairing with Uncle Dick. They were heaven for me. Everyone knew she was a skating icon, but I had of course never seen her compete live as an amateur. Being a pre-youtube world, I was entirely dependent on the very occasional benevolence of ABC's skating archive breaking out a clip of Peggy during Wide World of Sports. Virtually everything she did competitively had disappeared from any video format. People just did not collect and share video like they do now. So I read up on her voraciously. In the 80's an early nineties, skating books and encyclopedia articles, especially more general ones only covered Uncle Dick, Peggy, John Curry, Irina Rodnina and Torvill and Dean. Sadly, even TD's Bolero was not shown in its complete form for years after 84 until they began their comeback. It wasn't until the 90's when I purchased Magic Memories on Ice that I got to see her 68 FS (from nationals) in its entirety along with Curry, TD, Tai and Randy at 79 WC etc. After 15 years of waiting and searching, I was not disappointed. Of course, since then many kind souls have shared their clips of Peggy and others as both competitors and performers and several documentaries have been produced chronicling their eras. Reflections on Ice and Fire on Ice along with Peggy and Dorothy were my favorites.
Janet does get more attention these days, but to be fair to her, she virtually disappeared from skating for years at a time in order to give birth to and raise her children. Meanwhile Peggy chose to balance motherhood, show skating and commentary so she was much more in the public consciousness. Now that they have both moved on to more private lives and many young girls are being coached by former skaters who came of age during Janet's era, they are being made more aware of her.
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Who was the first person to land a quad at the Olympics?
Alexei Urmanov and Petr Barna landed quads at the 1992 Olympics, but not 100% clean. They finished 5th and 3rd, respectively.
Min Zhang landed a clean quad at the 1994 Olympics. He finished 20th.
Zhengzhin Guo landed at least one quad at the 1998 Olympics, skating in the next-to-last warmup group.
Therefore, Kulik was not the first person to land a quad at the Olympics. He was the first Olympic gold medalist to land a quad at the Olympics that he won.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
gkelly--oops, my mistake. Thanks for the heads-up.
Jcoates--to be honest, I knew that Peggy had a beautiful spread eagle-2A but I actually did not know that Ilia was the first to do the move since her (albeit in 3A form). Speaking from personal experience as someone who does not have very open hips at all and had to practice for hours on the rail before even attempting a proper spread eagle on the ice, it's not entirely surprising that not many skaters can actually do an axel directly out of a spread eagle. It is so, so hard to make the shift from the open hips of a spread eagle, then quickly close them to get on the LFO entry into the axel. Even now, although I see some juniors and senior skaters do a spread eagle-2A, you still don't see that many spread eagles-3A. Actually, off the top of my head, I can't remember anyone who does one now...
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- Joined
- Jun 3, 2009
Rogozine's in-air rotation is pretty ridiculous.
I think the link to Ilia´s winning performance at 1997 Japan Open including a huge triple axel out of spread eagle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOJYWm0fNNg&playnext=1&list=PL293AF0CFF6FE9A70
has not been posted yet? He did not just win the men´s competition, he was the winner of all disciplines and got a Honda Prelude as the price (as far as I remember).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOJYWm0fNNg&playnext=1&list=PL293AF0CFF6FE9A70
has not been posted yet? He did not just win the men´s competition, he was the winner of all disciplines and got a Honda Prelude as the price (as far as I remember).
Thanks Jaana. Here is Ilia'a FS from the 1996-97 GPF with him also doing the SE-3A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKJt9Rh28Xs&feature=related
For some weird reason the poster cut off the programs before it ends, but the jump in question in at about the midpoint.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKJt9Rh28Xs&feature=related
For some weird reason the poster cut off the programs before it ends, but the jump in question in at about the midpoint.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
Yagudin had no chance of the gold in 98 even if he skated the 110% of his best at the time. He wasnt even mathmetically in contention for the gold by then as he would have needed Kulik to be 3rd in the long program to win. Not to mention he was not capable of outskating Kulik at that point in time anyway.
Would he have won silver or any medal if he wasnt sick and had skated his very best? Who knows, Elvis was a big judges favorite and still skated fairly cleanly even with his injury, while Candelero did very well in the long program that night and actually beat Elvis in it. His performance which won his default Worlds wouldnt have been nowhere near a medal in Nagano either, in fact still would have placed him 5th.
Would he have won silver or any medal if he wasnt sick and had skated his very best? Who knows, Elvis was a big judges favorite and still skated fairly cleanly even with his injury, while Candelero did very well in the long program that night and actually beat Elvis in it. His performance which won his default Worlds wouldnt have been nowhere near a medal in Nagano either, in fact still would have placed him 5th.
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