Empty Seats at SA!!!

[SeaniBu]

I personally do not get caught up in this “is figure skating a sport” argument. It will never really be thought of as a sport as long as skaters are scored not just by what they do but also by how pretty they look doing it.

The problem is that others do, so no matter how much it doesn't matter to you and I it is still an issue to them. Who cares if they do or not??? How many events do you want to see televised, full arenas, rising number of events and new athletes to go into it???
Eventually as a kid you grow up and realize how much others opinions will have effect. So the analogy of "who cares what they think" has a tendency to have effect no matter whether it should or not. I don't just let something die off if I think it is worth saving, and I really don't just sit and wait for something to save itself when there IS something I can do.

It will never really be thought of as a sport as long as men dress up in bangles and beads, women in theatrical makeup show their panties, and everyone steps and sways to the lovely music.

To make figure skating into a “real sport,” the skaters would have to wear ugly uniforms, helmets (at least the pairs skaters), and would also be allowed to smash their competitors in the mouth as they went up for a triple Lutz.

I agree and disagree. There are certain degrees where this would cause an issue of perception and others that perpetuate it unnecessary by wearing such flamboyant attire. And there is a number of sports that are no contact and considered sports by the populous.

I for one am quite content for figure skating to have its own unique niche, with one foot in the sports camp and the other in entertainment.

That is precisely why the sports aspect is important to validate EQUALLY, if it isn't both then it only gives FS the one aspect - hence it would no longer be FS.
And that is exactly why FS is my favorite - "best of both worlds."

why does it matter whether or not people think it's a "sport"

Because it is by definition of the word "sport," and giving it the credibility it deserves in both the athletic and performance is an aspect of integrity which is important to many aspects of everyday life as well as a competitor or being a fan.

As for empty seats- maybe a combination of price and advertising. And notice you hardly ever see promos for figure skating on TV any more (except for CBS and Ice Wars). It's not enough to just show it- people have to know it's on too, right?

:agree: On the money:agree:

Something needs to develop.

Sorry to use this out of context, but somethingS need to develop. And I don't believe that my role as a fan is not important to this development. "The change starts with me." Also slightly out of context but I hope I am clear that it is the sum of all the parts that will make something better, stronger and "whole."
Just look at how the skater performs when the crowd is really behind them, it shows the importance of all elements involved.

Well, I think there are two points to be made. First, if you are talking about fans in the U.S., you can't tell the public who they want to see. If they want to see Michelle, they want to see Michelle, no matter how much "marketing" you do..

Not trying to say "tell them who" but they are not even "showing them who." A comment from a viewer that is quite common is "I don't care about this person, I don't even know anything about them. I just want to see...." Well who they know something about. If they don't know anything about them they are most certainly going to be indifferent to the appearance. It is about balance really. And as for the public not being "influenced" by media attention, that is arguable but not with out it's merit in capability of creating interest or even changing opinion. So my first response is to say oh yes it can get people to like or dislike.

Nor can you tell the paying public, these guys and gals are not performers, darn it, they're athletes, so stop liking beautiful and crowd pleasing performances and start acting more like sports fans. The public tells us, we don't tell the public.

If I ever even came close to saying such an outlandish thing I should crawl in a hole. For my whole intent is that people understand it is BOTH. An athletic competition (sport) that is conducted with the element of artistic impression and music. And I am not saying anyone here feels any differently (or at least bringing any attention to those I feel don't) I am trying to promote a sport that I love "with a strong voice on a soap box" whatever , I am a fan and I will cheer for my sport and "testify" to others that I feel strongly about it and it is a wonderful experience, win or loose, I profess my passion for it. IMO that is a fan.:yes:

The fans will ultimately decide the fate of a Sport. I wouldn't tell a fan to stop liking an aspect (particularly one I feel is important to FS) but rather to attempt to be more balanced in the appreciation and in conversation. Really, if you only like it 'cause it's pretty, then you a cheating yourself of a "complete experience" which by corse of nature could effect the sport as well. Also if I were one of those athletes I would want to be appreciated for that as well.

:yes: Reality, look at where that "unbalanced" focus brought the sport, now the change of focus with it is to emphasize Sport - ie CoP. It could be possible that this is compensation for exactly the point being made. Create a system of scoring that emphasis on athleticism, WHY?? Because the emphasis was missing and it need to be done to save some integrity of the sport. Now they are over compensating, the reason their focus is so strong on the "sporting aspect is?? Can only speculate, but they sure are not putting emphasis on the artistic.

 

[SeaniBu]

I am NOT being sarcastic in any part of the following or above.

The second point is, if you want to say, "Hey, there are other skaters out there, too," then you have to produce them. Talk won't do it. How are you going to promote U.S. Nationals during the eight consecutive years that Michelle won the national title -- hey, everybody, come out and see Tonia Kwiatkowski, Nicole Bobek, Angela Nikodinov, Naomi Nari Nam, Sarah Hughes, Jenny Kirk, Sasha Cohen and Kimmie Meissner compete for the second and third spots on the podium?

The only thing that I could respond to that theory is a question. I hate doing that but... Has second and third become pointless, not admirable??? I don't understand why someone would have to be a challenge to the leader / favorite in the sport to achieve the status required to be recognized. Dan Marino was "a great" according to football status / fans right, but he never won a Super Bowl yet was always a contender that received recognition.

- remember MK is hanging on my wall in a 16x12 framed in glass-
Really that thought leads me to believe the way MK "impacted" the sport (beside just watching her) was to make it mundane, predictable and therefore hurt the desire to watch because of having no competition. So MK had a negative effect on the completive challenge of FS because she was so much better, no one deserved the attention. ???

To respond to the last sentence respectfully as possible, that is always the case unless something happens to the "favorite."

ETA.That got me thinking about focus and where "other" advertising campaigns place emphasis in sports. For instance NASCAR will place the same focus on the race for second and third when the leader is so clearly far ahead as the leader. Yet that always takes into consideration the leader could "blow out" and suddenly the race for 2nd and 3rd becomes for 1st and 2nd. That is sporting excitement that sounds familiar to me as something happening in FS. Yet the approach of Advertising AND the fan base was to focus only on Kwan.

TV is like tunnel vision, you can't look out at the rink and see the other competitors and wonder about them. So what TV coverage does is focus your attention. Where they decide to focus??? the "impact" that has??? So I think they effectively "played up on Michelle to benefit rather than play up Figure Skating as a whole.

 

[Mathman]

The problem is that others do [care if figure skating is classified as a sport or not], so no matter how much it doesn't matter to you and me it is still an issue to them.

Are you sure about that? If we are talking about sports fans in general, or the public at large, I don't think they are losing much sleep wrestling in their minds with the question of whether figure skating is a sport. Most really don't care whether it is or not, IMHO.

Suppose we convinced everyone in the country that doing a quad is really, really hard. Would that make them want to watch someone doing it?

The only thing that I could respond to that theory [the theory that casual fans are mostly interested only in first place] is a question. I hate doing that but... Has second and third become pointless, not admirable?

Certainly placements, and even just skating well, are very important to the competitors, to their families and friends, and to ethusiastic figure skating fans. If you place 21st at U.S. Nationals one year, then move up to 13th the next, hooray for you!

But I also think that in the mind of the casual channel flipper whose attention we are trying to attract, the purpose of a National Championship competition is to determine the national champion. The purpose of a World Championship is to determine the world champion.

(BTW, IMHO the Olympic Games is a slightly different kettle of fish. I don't think the average U.S. couch potato really cares much about who can slide down a hill the fastest on a sled or do the most tricks on a snowboard. Rather, the point of the Games is to wave the flag and grab as many medals as possible for the red, white and blue.)

JMO

 

[R.D.]

make that GOLD medals if we're to talk about American fans.

The casual fan wants to see the best that whatever sport/Olympic sport has to offer. The dedicated fans want to see everything. Who is the TV network going to cater to? (Hint: there are a LOT more casual fans out there than dedicated fans.)

 

[Tonichelle]

Most really don't care whether it is or not, IMHO.

exactly, most have made up their mind if it is or isn't... just as with Cheerleading, Dance, or other 'arty sports'

and I don't feel the need to browbeat people over it either... I did when I was a pre-teen and got no where... it's not my job to convert skating fans... Yeah if it's my day to choose what we'll watch and skating's on you better believe I'm gonna turn it on, but if they don't like it, then I'm not going to go all hellfire and brimstone skating fanatic on them...

Just as people don't like religion crammed in their face, so they do not like being told what to enjoy in sport/entertainment...

 

[Mathman]

make that GOLD medals if we're to talk about American fans.

Still, I think this is less true of the Olympics than of other sporting venues. I remember reading a lot of sports headlines during th Olympic games along the lines of this one, "Team USA finishes with 25 medals!"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11566430

(Note the caption: Anton Apolo Ohno wins three medals!)

In contrast, the Detriot Tigers aren't celebrating finishing second in the World Series.

 

[R.D.]

second out of two? that's called LOSING and no-one celebrates that...come on!

But Detroit DID celebrate MAKING it to the World Series once they defeated whomever (didn't follow the playoffs this year) in the league championship.

 

[Mathman]

I guess the point I am making about the Olympics is this. If you ask who won the ladies world figure skating championship last year, the answer is Kimmie Meissner.

If you ask who won the Winter Olympics, the answer is Germany. (U.S.A. was second! )

 

[R.D.]

Well, I see it differently. I don't think you can necessarily WIN the Olympics as a whole. The Winter/Summer Olympics can't be won, but individual events in each games can. When you say someone "won the Olympics" they typically mean "won their Olympic event". It's the same thing, really.

I don't think being 1st in the medal count necessarily constitutes a "win" in that sense. Then you have the argument "most overall medals" or "most GOLD medals"? Kind of ambiguous (sp) IMO.

 

[SeaniBu]

Are you sure about that? If we are talking about sports fans in general, or the public at large, I don't think they are losing much sleep wrestling in their minds with the question of whether figure skating is a sport. Most really don't care whether it is or not, IMHO.

I am sure, but that is not really the point. Less fans less FS is the point. Less to get involved in FS means less competitors too - A very vital element of realization. If the - and just "if" is substantial - this is holding them back from appreciating (I don't know about you but I ask and chat a great deal about FS and get that feed back from honest responses not afraid to get into a discussion) then it better be a issue to us "truer" fans or we will loose the opportunities. Whether they are loosing sleep or not is irrelevant, are they seeing something they might enjoy, are the opportunities there for them? If they don't make the connection...and think, there are a lot of people who have been told FS sucks and believed it with out knowing anything other than this person's view. Someone said something the other way, and defended their stance. Now the non fan of FS has based an opinion on ????

I'm going to quote my self here for I feel something (a lot) is overlooked.

So the analogy of "who cares what they think" has a tendency to have effect no matter whether it should or not. I don't just let something die off if I think it is worth saving, and I really don't just sit and wait for something to save itself when there IS something I can do.

That is precisely why the sports aspect is important to validate EQUALLY, if it isn't both then it only gives FS the one aspect - hence it would no longer be FS.
And that is exactly why FS is my favorite - "best of both worlds."

Because it is by definition of the word "sport," and giving it the credibility it deserves in both the athletic and performance is an aspect of integrity which is important to many aspects of everyday life as well as a competitor or being a fan.

...the sum of all the parts that will make something better, stronger and "whole."
Just look at how the skater performs when the crowd is really behind them, it shows the importance of all elements involved.

... being "influenced" by media attention, that is arguable but not with out it's merit in capability of creating interest or even changing opinion. So my first response is to say oh yes it can get people to like or dislike.

The fans will ultimately decide the fate of a Sport. {based on involvement}

Reality, look at where that "unbalanced" focus brought the sport, now the change of focus with it is to emphasize Sport - ie CoP.

I might be one of the few really understanding the sport will suffer if there are a less fans SHOWING their support and love. And why they do or do not like it is more speculation then anything. Have they made up their minds? NO they haven't because the are missing certain aspects of it - come to an uneducated conclusion. Once exposed to the FULL of FS then they CAN make up their minds - and as I ( am I the only fan of this sport that will get up and try and promote it?) have seen people become interested more once they see the whole of FS. No doubt about it I see people change their minds about FS! And beside that, it is a lazy and "head in the sand" way of looking at something if you have integrity and care about it not to try because it is hard or think it won't make any difference. You have to stand up and educate people at the very least, other wise they think you have nothing to stand up for and their point is made - look at my signature, it is so true in regards to this. I feel I can make a difference in the future of FS and will, I am a fan. The ones who don't think it is worth fighting for are doing more damage then they realize. It is not a battle, but a train of thoiught, give up or give in you are not giving to enhance only concede.

If the majority of fans of FS are the type to just say "OH well" all the time and not put effort into gaining interest then I am sorry to say, that a majority are Not fans at all IMO. Fans promote, defend and contribute to the popularity and involvement of their passion. If some one can't tell you are a fan of FS with in a few times of being in your environment or in a couple of times talking with you, I think that defines a spectator and not a fan. And if FS is inundated with the "lackluster / lukewarm fans" then that is a whole reason within it's self why others see it as not really that great or something to learn about, because the fans don't even profess their passion for it accept to each other so it must not be all that great. Easy to see how some come to that conclusion.

I am really sorry if I just came across as being a jerk or was inadvertently putting anyone down, but I know that when I was "in the closet loving FS" the lack of impact it had on my friends. Now I see the difference it has made with the same people in getting their interest. If I would have had the guts to say something before there would be at least 4 more people interested in FS 6 or 7 years ago - and they told 2 friends and they told two friends and so on.....

I don't see how just agreeing with someone that does not like FS (or indifferent ) is anything more then throwing in the towel, and the only time I do that is if the challenge is going to damage or I am wrong. As the facts stand I am not wrong and FS is worth promoting - not promoting will cause damage! At least to a passionate fan, if you want less people learning to skate, to have less of a chance at great skaters, if you want less rinks in your neighborhood, then I say fine let it die off and never promote it. Because things that no one promotes are the things that go away.

How tough is it? Wear a T-shirt, bumpersticker, change your screen saver at work, tell people you look forward to seeing an up coming event, have some FS paraphernalia sitting around. If they make remark as not that interested, ask why, what is their take on it - people love to talk about themselves. Don't be afraid to stand up for it. If you don't show spirt in the face of adversity then your cause must not be worth much in the first place.

JMO, you have to promote so people know. And if you don't it will go.

BTW, the number of people unaware of the importance of what edge out of the 4 on a FS blade is staggering and will very much make people think of how much is being missed, how technical and precise the skaters have to be. They start understand why the "dance looking steps" are what they are. For goodness sake they hardly even know the skate has 4 particular edges.

 

[SeaniBu]

Just as people don't like religion crammed in their face, so they do not like being told what to enjoy in sport/entertainment...

If that is the approach, you are correct, there is a difference which I am sure you are aware.

 

[SeaniBu]

In contrast, the Detriot Tigers aren't celebrating finishing second in the World Series.

But they did in making it to the series, and were rallied on the way there.

My own personal note, that is common place with baseball fans. Not saying all, but a majority of BaseB fans are very fair-weather - more so then any other IMO. But Just MO.

 

[Mathman]

It's the Tiger's players, not the fans, who are being quoted as saying, "No, we're not happy -- we didn't play ball all summer to prove that we are second best."

The fans, on the other hand, love them because they took our minds off the Lions.

 

[Mathman]

So the analogy of "who cares what they think"...

Sean, I think that you are not reading the posts on this thread carefully. No one is saying that we shouldn’t care that figure skating is finding it more and more difficult to hold the interest of long-time fans and to attract the support of new ones. The question is what to do about it.

I am not at all convinced that the solution to figure skating’s woes is to put more stress on the sportly sportliness of this sport. I think that is more semantics than substance.

IMHO your most solid point is the one about the importance of generating high energy frenzy on the part of the audience. The audience should leave the arena high-fiving each other and shouting to strangers, “Did you see that! Did you see that!”

Examples of such a connection with the audience are Michelle Kwan’s performance of Tosca at 2004 U.S. Nationals; her performance of Aranjuez at 2003 Worlds; her performance of the Red Violin at 2000 Worlds; her performance of East of Eden at the 1998 World Pro; her performance of the Rachmaninov short program at 1998 U.S. Nationals; and her performance of Salome at 1996 Worlds.

Performances like these had television audiences boogying in their living rooms and rushing out to buy tickets to COI, while a million little girls struck a pose and declaimed, “I’m Michelle Kwan!”

Now…not so much, despite our best efforts to talk up the athleticism of the sport.

(Fiascos like the men’s performances at Skate Canada last night, where the winner bungled both quad attempts and did not do a triple Axel – but still he was better than everybody else – no, that doesn’t help.)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The Detroit Tigers do not win everygame and they lost a big one. Stephane will defend his World title.

 

[Mathman]

I think so, too. But I am not talking about being the best of a disappointing and mediocre lot. That won't bring new fans to the sport.

 

[Jhar55]

I don't use screensavers on my computers but I don have skaters on my desktop background. Right now I have Evan but I do change it now and then to a different skater. On my bulltin board at work is skating pictures and I do have a US figure Skating magnet on hutch at work and on the frigd at home. I wear vests, jackets, t-shirts I've gotten at events.
Few weeks ago at work a manger walks by and said why do you have Scott Baio on you computer, my answer was it's Evan! her answer should have knowen it was a skater.

 

[SeaniBu]

I don't use screensavers on my computers but I don have skaters on my desktop background. Right now I have Evan but I do change it now and then to a different skater. On my bulltin board at work is skating pictures and I do have a US figure Skating magnet on hutch at work and on the frigd at home. I wear vests, jackets, t-shirts I've gotten at events.
Few weeks ago at work a manger walks by and said why do you have Scott Baio on you computer, my answer was it's Evan! her answer should have knowen it was a skater.

Way to show the spirit.That's what I'm talking about. I am so glad to hear this spirt, that gives me hope. I shouldn't assume that just because I don't see it it is not happening. Thanks Jhar55 for that, I am so glad to hear it! Not "browbeating" (you are right Toni:agree: ) just showing spirt - now is the time we can have our voices heard. I feel like the sport needs us. And IF you can step it up that is great, if you are doing all you can already superb. I don't mean to sound so self-righteous and I am sorry I did.

But I hope it "positively" fired some up if it was needed.

Sean, I think that you are not reading the posts on this thread carefully. No one is saying that we shouldn’t care that figure skating is finding it more and more difficult to hold the interest of long-time fans and to attract the support of new ones. The question is what to do about it.

Your right, I 'spose I was going off on a tangent. If anything I might be feeling a little guilty for my Lackluster approach in the past and either trying so hard I am over compensating or trying to share the blame. Again apologies.

I hope people show their spirit more then I am aware.
I think the sports aspect needs to have equal emphasis.
I hope fans of FS are accepting to different types of fans coming into the sport.
I hope marketing changes just a touch to emphasize importance of all rather then being OVERLY swayed but public attention.

I can only hope from this point on that the fact it has been brought to attention that fans play a important roll in the future of their sport is going to encourage. I just got a little upset that there are some comments that I MIGHT have miss read as being the type to say, I give up. There are times when that is all you can do - like now what I am doing. :thumbsup:

Again apologies for the tangent and I don't think any of the people who responded to this would fall in to the lack luster category.

Of anything on this thread I believe the media coverage and high ticket prices are paramount to address.

I vow never again to sit on my butt when I am thinking of standing just because I am afraid to stand out. I am still ashamed but I feel now you all have given me closure and initiative, thank you.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think so, too. But I am not talking about being the best of a disappointing and mediocre lot. That won't bring new fans to the sport.

OK. I comprendo, but will Daisuke bring in more fans? Sandhu could.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

A little bit OT, but I have noticed a change in how figure skating is covered by the local newspapaer here (the Detroit Free Press. The other paper does not cover skating at all, and it is a very stupid paper and I'm glad I cancelled my subscription, not that I ever had one )

Anyway, they used to have pretty good coverage of events like the Grand Prix. There would be stories every day reporting on Skate America -- usually with a picture of Michelle Kwan -- and at least brief summaries after the fact for the other contests.

Now they have changed their focus and report only on athletes of local interest. There was no story on Skate America at all, but in today's paper there is a nice article about hometown dancers Virtue and Moir winning a silver medal at Skate Canada (OK, they're Canadian, but they train in Detroit at the Arctic Edge )

Belbin (Canada) and Agosto (Chicago) are featured every now and then, along with other local skaters like Alissa Czisny (an Ohioan, but we claim her), Davis and White, etc.

Every now and then I drop a little note to the "skating and Olympic sports" columnist/reporter saying keep up the good work. Don;t know if it does any good or not.