Ethics and "young" skaters at ISU events

[el henry]

....

Either the ISU exaggerated the dangers 8 months ago, or they are total hypocrites that don't care about 15 and 16 year olds doing lifelong damage to their physical, mental and emotional health.

I do not think that repeating the same citations over and over again helps your arguments.

The ISU could be the most hypocritical, worse, incredibly whatever words you care to use organization in the world.

Doesn't matter. The fact is that raising the minimum age for seniors to protect these young athletes is a great idea

Since the minimum age is graduated, however, (I would have preferred a hard reset and I am fine with a minimum age of 17/18), Isabeau was eligible. I don't care if she gets a fluff award from a promotion organized by Ari Zakarian, that has nothing to do with the good reasons for raising the age.

Thank heavens the ISU did at least one thing right.

 

[JimR]

I do not think that repeating the same citations over and over again helps your arguments.

The ISU could be the most hypocritical, worse, incredibly whatever words you care to use organization in the world.

Doesn't matter. The fact is that raising the minimum age for seniors to protect these young athletes is a great idea

Since the minimum age is graduated, however, (I would have preferred a hard reset and I am fine with a minimum age of 17/18), Isabeau was eligible. I don't care if she gets a fluff award from a promotion organized by Ari Zakarian, that has nothing to do with the good reasons for raising the age.

Thank heavens the ISU did at least one thing right

Unfortunately they haven't done one thing right otherwise they wouldn't be promoting and glorifying a 15 year old's achievements at senior level despite knowing the physical, mental and emotional damage being done to ever right now which will impact her both in the short term and the rest of her life.

Let's say a coach used abusive or unethical methods and the ISU decided to ban those abusive or unethical methods in two years time, but in the meantime, makes this person coach of the year despite all the physical, mental and emotional damage being caused. It would just as bizarre.

 

[el henry]

Unfortunately they haven't done one thing right otherwise they wouldn't be promoting and glorifying a 15 year old's achievements at senior level despite knowing the physical, mental and emotional damage being done to ever right now which will impact her both in the short term and the rest of her life.

Let's say a coach used abusive or unethical methods and the ISU decided to ban those abusive or unethical methods in two years time, but in the meantime, makes this person coach of the year despite all the physical, mental and emotional damage being caused. It would just as bizarre.

You are right that having a 15 year old compete at the senior level is not optimal. It should not have happened in the past, and it is good it is not happening now.

I do not want "the perfect to be the enemy of the good". Would it be better not to have Isabeau nominated for Ari Zakarian's fluff fest awards? Maybe. But in the long run, less important than raising the age.

The good that will result from raising the age is the first step. Hopefully there will be more.

This is not the coaching thread, and so I will not respond as I otherwise might about the coaching comparison.

 

[Caliban]

it is good it is not happening now.

It is literally happening RIGHT NOW, what are you talking about?
Levito literally end her SP few hours ago at 4CC

 

[el henry]

It is literally happening RIGHT NOW, what are you talking about?
Levito literally end her SP few hours ago at 4CC

I would have loved a hard re-set to 17, but alas...

not happening in the sense of not happening forever, in the future, as a rule. And Isabeau will be 16 in a month. Personally, I prefer 17, but I will take what I can get.

 

[moonvine]

Someone was able to notice contradictions in a sea of usual hypocritical agenda instead of blindly believing what officials/media says, wow. Be careful though - you're one step from beginning to doubt it - and then they may cancel you.
I'll try to explain why they did what they are doing - despite it being useless, of course. You see, ISU actions contradicts ISU slogans because they perfectly aware that all this pretty words about health preserving is baloney they deceive people with. Why it's nonsense?
Because raising age unavoidably will make juniors pool and juniors competitions on national and international level many times more crowded, hard and competitive than it was before. It's not that just two years amount of new skaters will be added - there will be even more (including those who won't be able to get enough rating points in their last junior season to get GP events spots - thus making them prolonging their stay in juniors). Which in turn will make neccessity to learn quads and 3As even more compelling for juniors than it was before. Else they are not going to win anything on junior level. With that in mind increasing rate of injuries among juniors is what is going to happen.

You’re right. They should also forbid quads and 3As.

Even amount of spectators in seniors is not that different from junior comps nowadays.

Not in the US. There are minimum 10x as many spectators at seniors. Probably more. I’m not versed in attendance of other countries at skating events.

 

[DancingCactus]

Nobody gives a dann about the ISU Awards anyway. Do you think anyone outside the FS bubble even knows it exists? And most of the people who know about it make fun of it anyway.

I don't think the awards are a measure of how seriously the ISU takes the age thing. Additionally, when you have a category called best newcomer, it only makes sense to give it to someone who is freshly up from the Juniors. And given the current age limit, this means that 15 year olds are eligible, sadly.

I'm not a fan of Isabeau but I frankly don't see which person would have been better suited to win this random award this year.

Sorry, to me you guys' arguments sound as if you try to deligitimize a good decision from the ISU that is going to help the sport long term, just because of one stupid award show.

 

[Leocadia]

That said, there is definitely some hypocrisy regarding the reception of ultra-c elements performed by kids from Russia and the USA VS kids from Korea and Japan. Like, I haven't seen anyone disapproving of Mao's jumps here, on reddit, or on twitter, which is a stark contrast from the way people react to kids like Mia Kalin or the Russian girls (even ones with good technique like Veronika).

I have seen quite a lot of concern and critics over Mao’s 3A and 4T on twitter, mostly about how her coach should stop pushing her to do those elements, as she is still very far from being senior eligible. I feel that with Mao, people tend to focus a lot on her other qualities, so the criticism is less visible than for other young skaters.

I think you are right though, that there seems to be a bit less criticism for young Japanese and Korean skaters. I don’t really remember if there was much concern over Yujae Kim’s triple axel.

 

[lariko]

There's a separate thread to complain about costumes, please don't derail - wearing pretty costumes is hardly unethical in itself, even if some of the youngsters, being youngsters as they are, take it too far in several directions.

This was in response to someone who said that putting costumes on younger skaters was immoral, while i see no difference from the ethical standpoint with age. The women’s costumes can be attractive while being far more appropriate to the sport, and all ages will benefit from it. The narrow definition of ‘pretty’ is not something I support over health, wellness and common sense.

Personally, I think in the light of the change of age, pushing skaters who are too young for it into seniors is technically compliant but against what this change is hoping to achieve/prove. It’s like a quiet rebellion against the ISU position that 17 is safer and will result in more successful or valuable careers overall.

 

[lariko]

Nobody gives a dann about the ISU Awards anyway. Do you think anyone outside the FS bubble even knows it exists? And most of the people who know about it make fun of it anyway.

I don't think the awards are a measure of how seriously the ISU takes the age thing. Additionally, when you have a category called best newcomer, it only makes sense to give it to someone who is freshly up from the Juniors. And given the current age limit, this means that 15 year olds are eligible, sadly.

I'm not a fan of Isabeau but I frankly don't see which person would have been better suited to win this random award this year.

Sorry, to me you guys' arguments sound as if you try to deligitimize a good decision from the ISU that is going to help the sport long term, just because of one stupid award show.

There was a newcomer who kicked this year off with landing 4A who was in compliance with the upcoming 17 yo guideline for what is considered a senior skater. Just sayin’….

 

[Leocadia]

There was a newcomer who kicked this year off with landing 4A who was in compliance with the upcoming 17 yo guideline for what is considered a senior skater. Just sayin’….

I think Ilia was not considered a newcomer as he had already competed as a senior before the beginning of this season.

 

[lariko]

I think Ilia was not considered a newcomer as he had already competed as a senior before the beginning of this season.

Then Rinka Watanabe who emerged on the international stage aged 20 and won Skate Canada off the bat, again, in keeping with ISU vision of senior division.

 

[Magill]

I think Ilia was not considered a newcomer as he had already competed as a senior before the beginning of this season.

As far as I understand this edition covered two last seasons due to COVID. It embraced Olympics, didn't it?

 

[Magill]

I like Isabeau myself and this argument should not be viewed as pro or against her as a skater. She was surely one of the best newcomers last season. But, no matter if we treat these awards as serious, fun or plain stupid, they are obviously very arbitrary and there were a couple of deserving candidates in each category anyway. Was Isabeau deserving? Yes. Was she the only one deserving? No, by no means. Was she obviously more justified choice than other candidates? No, by no means. Was she the youngest one and the only one so close to the controversial age limit to be raised? Yes, obviously. Is her award plainly scandalous? No. Would there be better and more justified choices? Yes, sure.

 

[SmileHappy34]

I have no opinion since they always have, had young skaters. We as audience see them in developing skating style

 

[el henry]

.....

Sorry, to me you guys' arguments sound as if you try to deligitimize a good decision from the ISU that is going to help the sport long term, just because of one stupid award show.

Jumping off, in my opinion, at least in North America, juniors will never be as popular as seniors, I don't care if they jump 85 quints a program. Let's come back in ten years, after the age limit has been in place for some time, and see how much more popular junior is than seniors.

I would love that for happen, I love the junior men, but I have many nickels that say it won't.

 

[lariko]

I like Isabeau myself and this argument should not be viewed as pro or against her as a skater. She was surely one of the best newcomers last season. But, no matter if we treat these awards as serious, fun or plain stupid, they are obviously very arbitrary and there were a couple of deserving candidates in each category anyway. Was Isabeau deserving? Yes. Was she the only one deserving? No, by no means. Was she obviously more justified choice than other candidates? No, by no means. Was she the youngest one and the only one so close to the controversial age limit to be raised? Yes, obviously. Is her award plainly scandalous? No. Would there be better and more justified choices? Yes, sure.

Not scandalous, simply contradictory in messaging that ISU is trying to send. I mean, juniors are not eligible for this award (from ISU). For some reason a ‘newcomer’ to the sport I has to be a newcomer to seniors only, which is weird because most of them competed internationally in juniors. And, according to ISU’s own policy, will now be competing in juniors even longer. But, according to ISU years in juniors don’t matter. Okay.

The second thing ISU is saying is that it is ethical and good to make the ‘main’ venue, the vaunted seniors, to start at 17, to award longevity and perseverance, and ensure women competing are post-puberty.

But lo and behold! They pick the youngest possible woman to award as the bestest newcomer into seniors. Messaging: the bestest newcomers are the youngest, and the new age cut-off is not in alignment with how women skaters develop, physically and artistically.

ISU is not the most consistent, logical and unbiased organization, so maybe it’s not surprising. But, tbh, I would prefer they stayed the course. 17–awesome, 16–tragic.

 

[el henry]

As far as I understand this edition covered two last seasons due to COVID. It embraced Olympics, didn't it?

The 2023 edition of the Awards honored the careers and performances of outstanding Figure Skaters and the work of Coaches and Choreographers for the 2022 calendar year which includes the ISU Championships (European, Four Continents and World Championships 2022), the Beijing 2022 Olympic Winter Games and the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating Series 2022 (individual events and Final)

ISU Skating Awards Hall of fame 2024

Get ready for the 4th edition of the ISU Skating Awards in Zurich, Switzerland, on February 11, 2024. Find out who the nominees are in various categories, including Most Valuable Skater, Best Newcomer, Most Entertaining Program, Best Costume, Best Choreographer, and Best Coach. Stay tuned to...

www.isu.org

Ilia is not a newcomer by this definition.

 

[Magill]

The 2023 edition of the Awards honored the careers and performances of outstanding Figure Skaters and the work of Coaches and Choreographers for the 2022 calendar year which includes the ISU Championships (European, Four Continents and World Championships 2022), the Beijing 2022 Olympic Winter Games and the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating Series 2022 (individual events and Final)

ISU Skating Awards Hall of fame 2024

Get ready for the 4th edition of the ISU Skating Awards in Zurich, Switzerland, on February 11, 2024. Find out who the nominees are in various categories, including Most Valuable Skater, Best Newcomer, Most Entertaining Program, Best Costume, Best Choreographer, and Best Coach. Stay tuned to...

www.isu.org

Ilia is not a newcomer by this definition.

4. Best Newcomer: Honors a young talented Single Skater or Pair or Ice Dance Couple competing very successfully for the first time in ISU Events on the Senior level in 2022 (GP 2021 accepted)
The same provision for all the categories so it covers effectively two seasons (i.e. without the final events of the current season that take place after the voting.
https://isu.org/figure-skating/isu-skating-awards

So when do you say was his international senior debut? I am by no means an expert on his career so maybe I got something wrong....

 

[el henry]

4. Best Newcomer: Honors a young talented Single Skater or Pair or Ice Dance Couple competing very successfully for the first time in ISU Events on the Senior level in 2022 (GP 2021 accepted)
The same provision for all the categories so it covers effectively two seasons (i.e. without the final events of the current season that take place after the voting.
https://isu.org/figure-skating/isu-skating-awards

So when do you say was his international senior debut? I am by no means an expert on his career so maybe I got something wrong....

Skate America 2020. I believe that even with COVID restricted invitations, that was still technically an international event, but maybe I am wrong?