Was the ISU right to increase age limits? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Was the ISU right to increase age limits?

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Alex Fedorov

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I do not have (and will not install) Telegram.

Can you tell me if the original an article that was published somewhere else, or is it the opinion of a poster on Telegram? It is obviously an opinion piece, but I can't tell from where.
The author of the text is Sergei Lisin, journalist of the Match-TV channel. I don’t know whether he published this article on the official website. One way or another, this “point of view” is based on sources (links are given directly in the text).
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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The author of the text is Sergei Lisin, journalist of the Match-TV channel. I don’t know whether he published this article on the official website. One way or another, this “point of view” is based on sources (links are given directly in the text).

Thank you, and thank you for identifying the author. (and the translation)
 

flimflam

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I'm just saying that this thread is a lame trolling attempt with an aim to discredit ISU.
That's all.
The main reason the ISU raised the age to 17 was to stop Russian Ladies from dominating the sport. The skating powers that be noticed that their was a tremendous drop off of quads at that age. No Russian Lady has ever had a ratified quad at 18 or older. This was never stated as the reason . Instead the main reason given out was that it would reduce injuries. There is no evidence that this rule ever prevented a single injury any where in the world. And finally when you have nothing intelligent to say just call somebody a Troll. It's a lot easier than having to think.
 

Rebecca Moose

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The main reason the ISU raised the age to 17 was to stop Russian Ladies from dominating the sport.
so tired of Russian victim mentality, 😭😭

why don't you go watch some bullshit domestic Russian jumping competition instead? why are you invested in skating outside of RUS because the level is so inferior, right?
 
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Alex Fedorov

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It is easier for me to trust CBC. That's all I will say.
"In CBC we trust"? Well, I don't want to offend anyone's religious feelings. But if you return from Eden to Earth, you can see that there are links in the text that I quoted. You can use them for fact checking. In this case there is no need for blind faith.

By the way, later (the text was written back in December) the author supplemented his original post:

lasickene.jpg

As confirmation of the incorrectness of the statistics on doping testing of Russian athletes used in the AP material (https://t.me/fyiwdwytm/7961), data on Olympic champion Maria Lasitskene, kindly provided to the author of the channel.

In RUSADA statistics, Maria has two samples in 2023.

In reality, she has seven samples collected during six doping control procedures: five urine samples and two blood samples.

So the information on which USADA head Travis Tagart said that testing of Russian athletes is carried out at an insufficient level, and statements that it meets the standards is a “slap in the face of clean athletes” - is false.
 

Alex Fedorov

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so tired of Russian victim mentality, 😭😭
the victim mentality is when Vincent Zhou and Karen Chen, who failed at competitions, demonstratively suffer because of the medals they did not receive (and these medals were absolutely undeserved of). The victim mentality means many years of talk about the “cheating” of Russian figure skaters, about the “Eteri bonus”, about wrong edges and not enough mature skating.

Well, now, of course, you are triumphant. Sincere, genuine joy. What a brilliant victory - not on the ice, but in the ISU office. Indeed, who need to train when you can simply destroy your rivals by inventing new rules? So why not add to these rules that any athlete from the United States is automatically considered a winner, regardless of the results shown? This will be fair.
 

4everchan

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My personal experience of some media throughout the last couple years has made me extremely suspicious. So there is no need to provide any quotes or screen shots from medias that I just don't trust. It would tell me that the sky is blue and I would wait for a confirmation from a trusted media at this point. I am sorry but that's just how it is for me. Nothing personal. No need to imply that I live in the clouds, it's quite the opposite.. Perhaps I am too cynical.
 

surimi

Congrats to Sota, currently #6 in World Standings!
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I do not believe for one second that the new age rule was invented to stop Russian teenage phenoms. I welcome this rule, and think it's a good one. I don't really care if it's Akatieva or Mao Shimada who we won't see in senior competitions until they turn 17. And if a 13-year-old boy from Korea or France showed up in juniors with quints, beating everyone by a 20-point margin, I'd feel the same way.
It probably didn't stop injuries, nothing ever will. Each skater has a different body, and some will be injury prone, no matter what rules are in effect. But has it reduced the number of injuries enough to bring longer careers and better health to men and women alike? Let's wait a few years and see, then we can judge. I don't see any official statistics indicating that teenage injuries are up anywhere but maybe Russia.

One nation's internal competitions are no indicator of the success of the age rule, or lack thereof, if said nation can't participate in ISU competitions where ISU rules are enforced. They go their own way in Russia for the time being, and ISU is no country's nanny to talk them nicely into not allowing children/young teens compete among adults, and jump multiple quads. It's that country's federation, coaches and parents who should be addressing the injury issue for the sake of their children's health; and if they value difficulty and medals more, well, on their own heads be it.

I haven't been following all countries super closely this year, but my impression is that we're generally seeing a step back from the quad craze among young teens - that is, among the countries that compete in ISU competitions, and therefore are motivated to tread slowly and carefully with ultra C. I don't see that as 'regression' or 'deterioration' at all, as some like to call it. Rather, for me it's an attempt to spare pre-pubescent youngsters' bodies that's definitely worth a try at least. Looking at the 2023 JGPF women for instance, I see just 1 quad (and Mao S is an exception rather than the norm), and three 3A. Why are these skaters holding back on more ultra C? My logical assumption would be that the skaters and their coaches do it not because they're lazy or inferior to Russians, but because they want to enjoy the senior career, and largely don't want to risk getting so injured prematurely that they wouldn't even make it to seniors - to the big stage, big medals, big prizes (at least compared to juniors) and popularity. And if so, that's the way it should be, as far as I'm concerned.
 

Alex Fedorov

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My personal experience of some media throughout the last couple years has made me extremely suspicious. So there is no need to provide any quotes or screen shots from medias that I just don't trust. It would tell me that the sky is blue and I would wait for a confirmation from a trusted media at this point. I am sorry but that's just how it is for me. Nothing personal. No need to imply that I live in the clouds, it's quite the opposite.. Perhaps I am too cynical.
This is not a screenshot from the media, this is a screenshot from an official document. And the links also lead to official documents (including WADA documents). There are no links in the article you trust. If you don’t want to fact-check, well, no one is forcing you. But this is not a sign of cynicism, it is a sign of blind faith in the concept of “good” and “bad” media.
 

Alex Fedorov

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You want to talk about the ban?
no, I don't want to discuss the ban. And the most I can tell you at all is a simple reminder: the age limit has been discussed for several years, and the fact that after the Beijing Olympics this new restriction will be adopted by the ISU was obvious at the beginning of the 2021-2022 season. That is, long before the ban and long before the incident with Valieva.

And please keep your political chatter to yourself. I am absolutely not interested in your point of view on political events of the past and present - not to mention the fact that such statements are inappropriate here and are prohibited by the forum rules, as far as I understand
 

Anna K.

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The main reason the ISU raised the age to 17 was to stop Russian Ladies from dominating the sport. The skating powers that be noticed that their was a tremendous drop off of quads at that age. No Russian Lady has ever had a ratified quad at 18 or older. This was never stated as the reason . Instead the main reason given out was that it would reduce injuries. There is no evidence that this rule ever prevented a single injury any where in the world. And finally when you have nothing intelligent to say just call somebody a Troll. It's a lot easier than having to think.
Look, when I say "a troll", I do not mean calling names. We all know perfectly well that a Troll is a honorable and well paid profession in Russia:

so good luck with that.
I'm just saying that this particular thread is a lame trolling attempt.
 
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Couch Expert

Rinkside
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so tired of Russian victim mentality
Unfortunately - it has every right to exist. Notice how even in this topic started to appear multiple offtopic posts about doping in Russia. Despite that topic was about preventing injuries in junior sport and has nothing to do with doping. What is the reason for it? It's like many participants here are treating Russia's quads as enemies weapon first and foremost. In fact by talking about doping here they are confirming ISU's and western skating comminity hostile and hypocrite mentality towards Russia - where first priority and concern is about to prevent Russian domination either with rules or by discrediting it with doping suspicions. This priority is so strong that it can't be contained even in a topic related to children's health. Because nobody cares about Russian children health here - which is obvious by posts about switching responsibility from ISU to the national federation. And health concern in a rule specifically made to prevent Russia's domination is used just to mask its real purpose. As I say before - if they really wanted to prevent injuries as was main declared reason for raising the age rule - they would ban or limit quads in juniors first.
You can blame me in being conspiracy theorist as much as you like - but dismissively arrogant attitude towards fate of young Russian skaters in this topic just confirms it for me.
I haven't been following all countries super closely this year, but my impression is that we're generally seeing a step back from the quad craze among young teens - that is, among the countries that compete in ISU competitions, and therefore are motivated to tread slowly and carefully with ultra C. I don't see that as 'regression' or 'deterioration' at all, as some like to call it.
About what "step back" or "regression" among young teens you are talking, I wonder? It can't exist in the first place - since in other countries except Russia there never was any noticeable progress in juniors until raising age rule was enforced. There is nothing to step back from. Unless you count constantly underrotated and unstable Alysa Liu's quads or You Young's 3As as progress of course. In fact, only in the last two seasons - after ISU raised the age - we can see real progress with real quads among nonRussian juniors at last. I.e. Mao Shimada's jumps. Therefore ISU age rule declared quads prevention purpose in juniors is not working even in other countries as well.
 

TT_Fin

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Feds are free to accomplish their own skating union with they own rules. I suppose ISU does not own rinks or have monopoly to arrange comps and rink owners can rent them to anybody they want to. Problem solved. Next.

Forum members are mostly original fans with some skating background. They have not much effect to anything. Blaming the forum members about the rules leads to nothing but arguments and is no useful to anybody.

Btw. My all time favorite Russian skater is Liza Tuk, who won WC at the age of 18, got silver at the age of 24, got gp silver a few days before she was 22. I have always been more fan of adult skaters than teens. If somebody tells me it is wrong opinion, that person has right to say so, as well as I have right to keep my own opinion.
 

surimi

Congrats to Sota, currently #6 in World Standings!
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About what "step back" or "regression" among young teens you are talking, I wonder? It can't exist in the first place - since in other countries except Russia there never was any noticeable progress in juniors until raising age rule was enforced. There is nothing to step back from. Unless you count constantly underrotated and unstable Alysa Liu's quads or You Young's 3As as progress of course. In fact, only in the last two seasons - after ISU raised the age - we can see real progress with real quads among nonRussian juniors at last. I.e. Mao Shimada's jumps. Therefore ISU age rule declared quads prevention purpose in juniors is not working even in other countries as well.
Re. that second sentence - of course it doesn't exist. But I see those derogatory words about non-Russian women thrown around quite often by certain fans of Russian women's skating here, hence why I'm referencing them. You may not have noticed because you're a new member here, but that kind of talk is common from certain users, and it's tiresome.

Let's wait with the judgment until the Russians return. When they face the same age limits as everyone else to maximize their chance at a senior career in ISU competitions, then we'll see if, and how long, their quad hyperactivity lasts.

Because nobody cares about Russian children health here - which is obvious by posts about switching responsibility from ISU to the national federation.
Your crystal ball is faulty... just thought you should know.
 

Caliban

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Btw. My all time favorite Russian skater is Liza Tuk, who won WC at the age of 18, got silver at the age of 24, got gp silver a few days before she was 22. I have always been more fan of adult skaters than teens.
She also won both her GP stages at her first int season at the age of 14 (she actually become youngest skater who won Skate Canada in 30 years), and at same age won her RusNas gold (and then European bronze), but i guess you completely ignore her at that time (she was just teen after all) .
 

TT_Fin

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She also won both her GP stages at her first int season at the age of 14 (she actually become youngest skater who won Skate Canada in 30 years), and at same age won her RusNas gold (and then European bronze), but i guess you completely ignore her at that time (she was just teen after all) .
I remember her being there at the very young age. I did not ignore her, but she was not my favourite yet. Overall I did not follow much skating besides big comps during those days as being busy on my personal life. But she has had a long career, which I admire, and she did not give up after younger teens' showdown.
 

Skating91

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I do not believe for one second that the new age rule was invented to stop Russian teenage phenoms. I welcome this rule, and think it's a good one. I don't really care if it's Akatieva or Mao Shimada who we won't see in senior competitions until they turn 17. And if a 13-year-old boy from Korea or France showed up in juniors with quints, beating everyone by a 20-point margin, I'd feel the same way.
It probably didn't stop injuries, nothing ever will.

Banning quads at junior and senior level for women means that no coach will bother teaching them, no child will have to take risks jumping them, otherwise what was the point of raising the age limit? Take the example of Sadkova who moved up to seniors this year. She struggled in juniors because she didn't have as many quads, nor the stability. She commented competing in seniors is much easier than competing in juniors. Much less pressure I can't remember the exact, but they were along those lines.

I haven't been following all countries super closely this year, but my impression is that we're generally seeing a step back from the quad craze among young teens - that is, among the countries that compete in ISU competitions, and therefore are motivated to tread slowly and carefully
with ultra C.

In ISU juniors a lot more non-Russian children are jumping or at least attempting ultra-c now than a few years back.

I don't see that as 'regression' or 'deterioration' at all, as some like to call it. Rather, for me it's an attempt to spare pre-pubescent youngsters' bodies that's definitely worth a try at least. Looking at the 2023 JGPF women for instance, I see just 1 quad (and Mao S is an exception rather than the norm), and three 3A.

If we go back to junior world's of 2020 before COVID upended the next season, the only non-Russian girl to attempt a quad was Liu which she failed to land, and three girls including Liu attempted a 3A and all of them failed on it as well.

If we look at Shimada in international comps I think it's 1 out of her last 9 that she's landed clean now, and fallen on 4 or 5 of them. Given how much she struggles to rotate or land the 4T now at her prime age for jumping quads, there's no chance of having a stable quad at age 17 so it makes no sense to have a coach putting her through this punishment at such a young age. And this is Shimada the best of the non-Russian girls. If she can't get stability, then there is little hope for any other junior. So just ban them for females.

What did Dave Lees say about Bazyluk landing a clean 4T+3T+3T+3T+3T and a 4S+1Eu+4S? That it's disgusting, that all her bones will break. I mean, she didn't even suffer a fall and he's saying how disgusting and dangerous it is.

If he thinks it's disgusting to see someone jump quads clean, then what does he think about the best non-Russian jumper in the world falling (often heavy falls) on close to 50% of her attempts and only landing 1/9 clean, and continually being pushed into attempting a dangerous jump she has never once had stability in. So just ban quads, so poor Shimada isn't sent out there to go splat on the ice and end her chances at senior medals before the even started.


Why are these skaters holding back on more ultra C? My logical assumption would be that the skaters and their coaches do it not because they're lazy or inferior to Russians, but because they want to enjoy the senior career, and largely don't want to risk getting so injured prematurely that they wouldn't even make it to seniors - to the big stage, big medals, big prizes (at least compared to juniors) and popularity. And if so, that's the way it should be, as far as I'm concerned.

No-one is holding back. Shimada is sent out there to take a heavy fall 50% of them time, there's an American girl with a frightening technique that attempts a quad when she should be learning basic techniques and she takes a heavy fall every time I have watched her.

Go back to junior world's 2020 and only one non-Russian had a quad and failed on it, world's 2022 only Rion attempted a quad and failed on it and only Watanabe attempted a 3A -- and you guessed it -- she failed on that as well. I don't understand where you get this idea they are holding back it's ramping up when you take into account all the 3A attempts as well now.

With these kind of terrible odds that the best juniors in the world have attempting ultra-c, when only 2 or 3 in a field of the best juniors in the world are capable of attempting them, why not just ban it for females when almost all of them will lose the jumps even if they have some stability as a junior.

Does not make sense to have them does it? Does not make any sense for the best of the best to be learning, attempting, risking health on these jumps when the odds are so terrible for the skaters. Not to mention this is juniors, they skate in juniors to be prepared for seniors. It is strange that so many people don't care about the health of these juniors.

In motor racing, cars become faster and faster with advancements each year. Without intervention of the FIA in tinkering with rules in order to slow cars down, the teams will continue to build faster cars and send drivers out in them. No driver is going to say no this is too fast. Drivers just say build something faster they all think a bad crash will happen to someone else. The FIA can't rely on a team or driver to self police and say to themselves, this is getting too unsafe maybe we should stop bringing upgrades to the car because someone might get hurt.

No, the governing body steps in to slow the cars down, they ask for tracks to alter the design of circuits if they become too dangerous. The save the teams and drivers from themselves.

The same has to happen in figure skating. Child skaters need to be saved from themselves (more so from their coaches and federations).
 
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