Extraordinary performances under extraordinary pressure

[janetfan]

Actually Baiul never won Europeans. Both times she competed there she finished second to Surya Bonaly.

Thanks for that gkelly.

So Oksana was the defending world champion and Euro silver medalist at Lillehamer. Nancy had missed US Natls and was given a medical bye to the Olympics. She did not have as much time to train after getting whacked so I don't recall her as being a big favorite. Maybe a co-favorite?

The whole skating world was buzzing about the Harding/Kerrigan incident and also about the young Ukranian skater Oksana Baiul.

If Kristi had returned she would have been the favorite. I am not sure if Oksana was considered much of an underdog at Lillehamer though.

 

[gkelly]

From the point of view of the American audience who follows skating only for the Olympics,

They might have remembered Harding and Kerrigan (and Bonaly and maybe Chen and Sato and Chouinard) from Albertville. And Witt from four years before that plus her professional exposure.

Given the whole scandal, they couldn't help but know who Harding and Kerrigan were going into the Olympics.

But kids like Baiul and Szewczenko who had first made their mark in 1993? Only skating fans who took the trouble to watch Worlds in off years, let alone Euros and Skate America on TV, would even have heard of them.

Obviously the skating world knew who those skaters were and what they were capable of. And the expert commentators. And the European sports media.

The skaters themselves would have had some sense of what was expected of them. And that's where the pressure they were under would have come from.

But most Americans probably perceived Baiul as an underdog because they'd never heard of her.

And Baiul's pressure was surely less than Kerrigan's because the Ukrainian press wasn't as overwhelming a presence.

 

[janetfan]

From the point of view of the American audience who follows skating only for the Olympics,

They might have remembered Harding and Kerrigan (and Bonaly and maybe Chen and Sato and Chouinard) from Albertville. And Witt from four years before that plus her professional exposure.

Given the whole scandal, they couldn't help but know who Harding and Kerrigan were going into the Olympics.

But kids like Baiul and Szewczenko who had first made their mark in 1993? Only skating fans who took the trouble to watch Worlds in off years, let alone Euros and Skate America on TV, would even have heard of them.

Obviously the skating world knew who those skaters were and what they were capable of. And the expert commentators. And the European sports media.

The skaters themselves would have had some sense of what was expected of them. And that's where the pressure they were under would have come from.

But most Americans probably perceived Baiul as an underdog because they'd never heard of her.

And Baiul's pressure was surely less than Kerrigan's because the Ukrainian press wasn't as overwhelming a presence.

And yet Nancy probably had the skate of her life - and Oksana as I recall skated a little tight and had several shaky landings on her jumps.

As far as the public goes no doubt Nancy was the favorite but I don't think she was in skating circles. She had the big meltdown the year before at Worlds and was also a little undertrained at Lillehamer.

I would add even casual fans, after seeing Oksana's SP realized Nancy winning was not a foregone conclusion.

I think Oksana won because the judges prefered her skating, she was the defending WC and Nancy, even though under immense pressure probably had the skate of her life.

IMO pressure on Nancy did not effect her performance and she was only the favorite with Americans. Had she been the favorite with the skating powers that be they would have given her the Gold.

ETA: gkelley, thanks for your comments. I would be curious if you could address post #13 on the "Who do you think excelled...." topic. I was curious about jumps we don't see anymore. Thanks

 

[prettykeys]

Kristi was the defending WC going into Albertville. She was most definitely under big pressure from the US media and fans to win the OGM. Kristi once said one of the reasons she did not try and defend her Olympic title only two years later in Lillehamer was because of the incredible pressure of 1992.

If Kristi says she was under incredible pressure I think it is safe for us to believe her. I always thought Kristi would have won again in '94 - but who knows? Maybe the pressure the second time aroubd would have been too great.

No. Every report--from outside sources and Kristi herself--that I've seen corroborates the notion that Kristi was not under "incredible pressure" in 1992; when she says that pressure caused her to choose not to compete in 1994, my guess is that she is referring to pressure and expectations that come with being the Olympic Gold medalist just 2 years past.

I

f you doubt the sincerity of my comments, I'd refer you to Christine Brennan's Edge of Glory where she discusses Tara's obsession with the OGM and the lengths she went to in her bid for gold. But she was 15 years old. I can't help but wonder if she'd make the same choice today. Or if her mother would've made the same choice today.

Hmm yes, you're right. You and MKFSfan have convinced me that perhaps I should be happy that Michelle never won the OGM--and no wonder, she never tried as hard as Tara. And yet, I guess Michelle tried a little too hard, since she had to withdraw in 2006 due to injuries at an age younger than when Shizuka won her OGM.

Now, if you think my sour grapes come from 2002, again I say HA! If anything, my biggest issue with CoP and how it is designed are directly reflected with the results from Salt Lake... Based on today's standards of what is good, Michelle Kwan would've one that gold medal because PCS would've held her up with Irina and Sarah being dinged all over the place. It broke my heart, but Michelle didn't earn it, so she should not have won it. Plus, we would've been deprived of Tosca, The Feeling Begins, etc.

This is a separate point on which we disagree...I view this theoretical CoP outcome as one of CoP's strengths. Sarah Hughes had sloppy technique and some underrotations in her jumps that rather ruined her LP performance, for me. I would have approved had Michelle or Irina won the Gold instead. (And I believe this is as far as being "mean" about any skater as I ever get.) I agree with both of you that the OGM would have hardly been Michelle's greatest accomplishment, anyway. And yet, even this non-Kwan-fan feels some bit of regret for her. You guys as fans may have other reasons to be "glad", I guess (I like Aranjuez much better than Tosca), but since that OGM meant so much to Kwan, I would have liked for her to have one, and she would have earned it plenty at the 2002 Oly's, the way I see it (if she beat out Irina). Just another drop in her ocean of accomplishments, but apparently one that would have meant a lot to her, personally.

What is definitely a stark contrast is the way Tara handled her career and life, and the way Michelle managed hers, so I agree with you's on that. Tara had every opportunity to go to school, and college, and get an education or pursue a number of careers aside from skating, but she didn't, and remained eclipsed by Michelle when she still could skate. On the other hand, Michelle's long skating career never got in the way of her getting a degree and what looks to be another promising career moving forward. I know I say flippant or irreverent things about Michelle's skating (mostly to tickle her Ubers, teehee), but I truly do feel softly and admiringly towards her.

 

[Olympia]

What is definitely a stark contrast is the way Tara handled her career and life, and the way Michelle managed hers, so I agree with you's on that. Tara had every opportunity to go to school, and college, and get an education or pursue a number of careers aside from skating, but she didn't, and remained eclipsed by Michelle when she still could skate. On the other hand, Michelle's long career never got in the way of her getting a degree and what looks to be a promising career and moving forward. I know I say flippant or irreverent things about Michelle's skating (mostly to tickle her Ubers, teehee), but I truly do feel softly and admiringly towards her.

That's exactly what saddens me about Tara's life path. While of course I'm sorry Michelle didn't win an OGM, she won pretty darn near everything else, including two Olympic medals--compared to Kurt Browning, who in three tries never won an Olympic medal of any color, and yet his greatness is undisputed for all sorts of reasons. The thing is, I do kind of believe Kwan wouldn't have continued skating, certainly not until 2006, maybe not even until 2002, if she'd won in 1998. And one of the things that makes her so special is the body of her work. Few other ladies skaters have maintained an output at such a high level for so long--on the podium for every senior competition for over a decade, and remembered not just for her medal haul but for her musical interpretation. There are few skaters whose wins we remember by the name of their musical programs. Michelle made the sport different while she was in it, which thank God was a good long time. And she still managed to continue her education and start on a really interesting and useful career in the bargain.

Meanwhile, Tara has accomplished next to nothing since leaving skating. She doesn't coach. She doesn't write. She acts in a desultory sort of way. She hasn't gone to college. This is a smart girl, and plainly was ambitious at one point in her life. Precisely because of that, I am distressed at the thought of her being so nonproductive. The high point of your life can't and shouldn't be something you did when you were fifteen. Believe me, this isn't sour grapes. I don't resent Tara's win any more than I resent, say, Alexei Urmanov beating out Stojko and Browning in 1994 or Petrenko beating out Wylie and Browning in 1992. Whether Michelle was "robbed" at either Olympics is, I finally figured out, irrelevant. She skated beautifully, she gave it her all, and she has accomplished a lot else both in skating and in life. Moving on!

But Tara's situation does perplex and concern me, as an adult and as a fellow female. It's not really any of my business, but she's a member of the skating community, and that's my sport, so I worrywart.

 

[janetfan]

No. Every report--from outside sources and Kristi herself--that I've seen corroborates the notion that Kristi was not under "incredible pressure" in 1992; when she says that pressure caused her to choose not to compete in 1994, my guess is that she is referring to pressure and expectations that come with being the Olympic Gold medalist just 2 years past.

.

Your last statement is right and Kristi did say she didn't want to put herself through the pressure of defending her Olympic title.

But at her parent's insistence she marched in the Opening Ceremonies, lived in the Olympic Village and socialized with the other athletes and said she even went out dancing at night before her events started.

She also said she had to tell herself each day that it didn't matter if she won, and that any medal would be fine. She said this wasn't easy because it had been her dream to win the Olympic Gold medal.

A degree of pressure to perform your best is part of most athlete's Olympic experience.
When you are a figure skater, the US and defending World Champion, there is pressure. Kristi knew she would be watched by millions on TV and her performances would be closely analyzed.

I did not say Kristi was under more pressure than Midori, but nonetheless she was under big pressure to bring home the Gold from the American media and US skating fans.

ETA: OT, here is a SI cover with Kristi and her prize.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1992/0302_large.jpg

 

[prettykeys]

But Tara's situation does perplex and concern me, as an adult and as a fellow female. It's not really any of my business, but she's a member of the skating community, and that's my sport, so I worrywart.

I do wonder if Tara's conception of what the OGM would mean for her was distorted when she aimed towards it, and after getting it, reality set it? Her OGM was not a ticket to fame or a flood of opportunities knocking at her door. Perhaps, to her bewilderment, in spite of her winning that OGM, the fact that another American skater got all the love and attention made her feel weird, like "if this is the best I could do and this is the best I am getting...then what was the point"? All conjecture, of course.

If this is the situation Olympia, MKFSfan and Kwanford Wife were getting at, then it's not sour grapes, although I still wouldn't blame the OGM or the striving for it at an eligible age. My suspicion is that Tara had unrealistic expectations of what an OGM win would bring her, and then she didn't really know what to do after she achieved it.

I can imagine some people liking the quiet life, and being satisfied even if the high point of their careers is an OGM at 15. But yeah, Tara has remained at the sidelines of the public eye, hasn't she?

I did not say Kristi was under more pressure than Midori, but nonetheless she was under big pressure to bring home the Gold from the American media and US skating fans.

Of course not, you'd be crazy to say so. But you made a comparison between the pressure on Kristi of 1992 to what may have been in 1994, and I highly doubt the pressure would have been the same. In 1994 it would have been greater...because she would have become the Favourite.

 

[seniorita]

Sasha's Olympic 2006 sp, her pressure as the one of favs was too much and this is for me one of her best programs, great attitude, costume and music.
Irina's Worlds 2005 Lp, maybe not the same pressure but her comeback and skating in front of home crowd, I have no words.
Stephan Worlds 2006 Lp, coming after Joubert's great skate and 4th after the short, his best performance for me that I can watch again and again!

Tosca time
Plushy Olympic 2006 sp, i know many people think the opposite and that he was not on pressure but he has said how he was feeling so I believe him, unlike his lp, his passion in this performance, plus costume and music i love all and have rewatched it multiple times.
And Kwan 2004 nationals lp, second after the short, this is performance for the ages. I loved the dress, the choreo, her exhitement! And the end of it, I love it!

 

[Marrymeyunakim]

Sasha's Olympic 2006 sp, her pressure as the one of favs was too much and this is for me one of her best programs, great attitude, costume and music.
Irina's Worlds 2005 Lp, maybe not the same pressure but her comeback and skating in front of home crowd, I have no words.
Stephan Worlds 2006 Lp, coming after Joubert's great skate and 4th after the short, his best performance for me that I can watch again and again!

Tosca time
Plushy Olympic 2006 sp, i know many people think the opposite and that he was not on pressure but he has said how he was feeling so I believe him, unlike his lp, his passion in this performance, plus costume and music i love all and have rewatched it multiple times.
And Kwan 2004 nationals lp, second after the short, this is performance for the ages. I loved the dress, the choreo, her exhitement! And the end of it, I love it!

Wow!

I've been watching a lot of Michelle Kwan these past few weeks and I must say that she is perhaps as much a favourite of mine as Kim Yu-Na. Just the passion, the artistry, the super-solid jumps. Just wow.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Hmm yes, you're right. You and MKFSfan have convinced me that perhaps I should be happy that Michelle never won the OGM--and no wonder, she never tried as hard as Tara. And yet, I guess Michelle tried a little too hard, since she had to withdraw in 2006 due to injuries at an age younger than when Shizuka won her OGM.


This is a separate point on which we disagree...I view this theoretical CoP outcome as one of CoP's strengths. Sarah Hughes had sloppy technique and some underrotations in her jumps that rather ruined her LP performance, for me. I would have approved had Michelle or Irina won the Gold instead. (And I believe this is as far as being "mean" about any skater as I ever get.) I agree with both of you that the OGM would have hardly been Michelle's greatest accomplishment, anyway. And yet, even this non-Kwan-fan feels some bit of regret for her. You guys as fans may have other reasons to be "glad", I guess (I like Aranjuez much better than Tosca), but since that OGM meant so much to Kwan, I would have liked for her to have one, and she would have earned it plenty at the 2002 Oly's, the way I see it (if she beat out Irina). Just another drop in her ocean of accomplishments, but apparently one that would have meant a lot to her, personally.

What is definitely a stark contrast is the way Tara handled her career and life, and the way Michelle managed hers, so I agree with you's on that. Tara had every opportunity to go to school, and college, and get an education or pursue a number of careers aside from skating, but she didn't, and remained eclipsed by Michelle when she still could skate. On the other hand, Michelle's long skating career never got in the way of her getting a degree and what looks to be another promising career moving forward. I know I say flippant or irreverent things about Michelle's skating (mostly to tickle her Ubers, teehee), but I truly do feel softly and admiringly towards her.

(I know, we can be a bit much!!!)

See, now you're gonna get me in trouble with the other Kwaniacs who might get your sense of humor... My point isn't that Tara worked harder or that she didn't get the fortune and fame - just a reflection on how her training ruined her body and her career. That's sad because she was very talented...

As for Michelle - I wish with all that is right and holy that she'd won a OGM. Actually, Kwan left close to 10-20 million in national endorsements on the table be NOT winning. And this is where we fans get into trouble. What we want for skaters (music, costumes, jump layout, whatnot) has no influence because we're not on the ice. So while as a fan I'm glad I did get to see her compete because I love her - that and a nickel won't get her a cup of coffer or erase the disappointment on NOT winning... you know what I mean?

And yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree because Sarah's so-called sloppy technique aside - she beat Michelle and Irina that night and she deserved that medal. I hate that CoP has been designed in a way that rewards great skaters with bad skates. I thought the redesign in the judging system was supposed to IMPROVE the faults, not reward them...

 

[janetfan]

(I hate that CoP has been designed in a way that rewards great skaters with bad skates. I thought the redesign in the judging system was supposed to IMPROVE the faults, not reward them...

Reading your thought and thinking of the GPF - this is what appears to have happened.

Akiko skating so well - finished so far behind Yuna and Miki in the LP.
If I was judging I would have placed Akiko first in the LP.

Akiko got killed on the pcs and all it looks like is another case of CoP holding up great skaters on off nights. It is one thing when we see horrible judging and scores at lesser events - but this was the GPF and is supposedly a big deal.

I never was a believer in the old excuse "but skater "A" has a more difficult program than skater "B."

It is only more difficult if it is executed properly. Difficult elements not completed or executed properly should not be rewarded and in fact should be penalized.

A skater's planned program should not be awarded points because it appears to be difficult. Points should only be awarded for the way they perform it.

CoP appears to take a different view.

 

[MKFSfan]

I was thinking about how some have said once Sasha made her mistakes, she gave a performance of a lifetime and therefore deserves mention in this thread. When I watched her skate back in 2006, I felt she came out for the LP totally overwhelmed by the pressure of being in 1st place, by the injury she had and the fact she was having rough practices. I think once she made those two mistakes, she felt that was it, and all the pressure to deliver vanished along with what she felt was any medal chances, so she was able to perform. I felt she was able to use her crushing disappointment at the moment to get into the haunting theme of the music. If she had a different piece of music, like say,"Dark Eyes," we may have gotten a totally different performance. So, for me, it was less about Sasha delivering as it was drawing from her emotions and letting go because she felt she no longer had a shot at the podium. It is still admirable because some may just get deflated and give up and just make mistake after mistake. But I really don't feel Sasha in 2006 deserves to be mention with most of the ones who did deliver clean, winning performances under pressure.

 

[janetfan]

I was thinking about how some have said once Sasha made her mistakes, she gave a performance of a lifetime and therefore deserves mention in this thread. When I watched her skate back in 2006, I felt she came out for the LP totally overwhelmed by the pressure of being in 1st place, by the injury she had and the fact she was having rough practices. I think once she made those two mistakes, she felt that was it, and all the pressure to deliver vanished along with what she felt was any medal chances, so she was able to perform. I felt she was able to use her crushing disappointment at the moment to get into the haunting theme of the music. If she had a different piece of music, like say,"Dark Eyes," we may have gotten a totally different performance. So, for me, it was less about Sasha delivering as it was drawing from her emotions and letting go because she felt she no longer had a shot at the podium. It is still admirable because some may just get deflated and give up and just make mistake after mistake. But I really don't feel Sasha in 2006 deserves to be mention with most of the ones who did deliver clean, winning performances under pressure.

That is an interesting analysis.
I think in '06 Sasha still showed us one the greatest SP's in Olympic history.
But I also think it is harder to skate a great LP under pressure and Sasha was not able to do that.

 

[MKFSfan]

I agree. Sasha has had some really brilliant moments in the SP, 2006 was my 2nd fave of hers (2003 Worlds is #1). I just found it unusual the top 3 were practically tied (although I think only Irina was truly clean-Sasha had a iffy landing on the 2ax and Shiz had a bobble on what was to be a 3lz/3lp turned into 3lz/2t), and all 3 showed some form of pressure in the LP knowing Gold was within grasps. I don't think anyone delivered in that particular competition. But with COP, it's not necessary about delivering moving, clean programs, it's about racking up the most points.

 

[attyfan]

As far as extraordinary performances under extraordinary pressure goes, I would add Michelle Kwan at the 2001 Worlds, especially the QR (with her boot problems) and her FS at the 2004 Worlds (the streaker).

 

[Layfan]

From the point of view of the American audience who follows skating only for the Olympics,

They might have remembered Harding and Kerrigan (and Bonaly and maybe Chen and Sato and Chouinard) from Albertville. And Witt from four years before that plus her professional exposure.

Given the whole scandal, they couldn't help but know who Harding and Kerrigan were going into the Olympics.

But kids like Baiul and Szewczenko who had first made their mark in 1993? Only skating fans who took the trouble to watch Worlds in off years, let alone Euros and Skate America on TV, would even have heard of them.

Obviously the skating world knew who those skaters were and what they were capable of. And the expert commentators. And the European sports media.

The skaters themselves would have had some sense of what was expected of them. And that's where the pressure they were under would have come from.

But most Americans probably perceived Baiul as an underdog because they'd never heard of her.

And Baiul's pressure was surely less than Kerrigan's because the Ukrainian press wasn't as overwhelming a presence.

I'm not so sure about this. I remember those Olympics well (what American doesn't) At the time, I was definitely a casual fan who only tuned in during Olympics. I never followed world championships or national championships and I had no idea that Nancy had bombed at the 1993 worlds or any of it. But I definitely knew who Oksana Baiul and Surya Bonaly were. Oskana actually got a good amount of U.S. press heading into the Olympics because she had her own touching personal story, being an orphan and everything, so I remember the "fluff" about her well. The media loved it. I definitely had the sense she was the favorite, not Nancy. As for Bonaly, I remembered her from the last Olympics and she also has a good personal back story and an attitude that always got her into the press.
If anything, the Tonya-Nancy saga only ensured that more Americans than usual would have heard about the likes of Bonaly and Baiul.
Even now, when I try to talk to people about figure skating, they remember Baiul and even Bonaly. And these are people who have no idea who Kim Yu-Na is.

As for your second point, ITA that Nancy, favorite or not, was under way more pressure than Oskana. I can't even imagine trying to compete at the Olympics with the media following you everywhere and knowing that you're the biggest story of the entire Games. For her to deliver such an amazing skate ... I think it's an often underrated moment because she didn't get the gold. That's why I have her first on my list of best skates under extraordinary pressure.

 

[LDVSkate]

I do wonder if Tara's conception of what the OGM would mean for her was distorted when she aimed towards it, and after getting it, reality set it? Her OGM was not a ticket to fame or a flood of opportunities knocking at her door. Perhaps, to her bewilderment, in spite of her winning that OGM, the fact that another American skater got all the love and attention made her feel weird, like "if this is the best I could do and this is the best I am getting...then what was the point"? All conjecture, of course.

If this is the situation Olympia, MKFSfan and Kwanford Wife were getting at, then it's not sour grapes, although I still wouldn't blame the OGM or the striving for it at an eligible age. My suspicion is that Tara had unrealistic expectations of what an OGM win would bring her, and then she didn't really know what to do after she achieved it.

I can imagine some people liking the quiet life, and being satisfied even if the high point of their careers is an OGM at 15. But yeah, Tara has remained at the sidelines of the public eye, hasn't she?

I don't believe that Tara wanted to be another Dorothy Hamill. I think Tara was much too young and her coach much too driven to create a great jumper for Tara to think about creating an image/legacy for herself at 15.

Tara was first and foremost an athlete. She really saw skating as a sport. So, did her coaches. And, she conducted herself accordingly.

To beat Michelle, she figured that she would have to outjump her. At the Olympics, the judging panel saw it the same way. And, she won.

That I think is where the story of Tara as a skater ends. After winning the OGM, she made as much money as she could from skating and she moved on. I don't think Tara had unrealistic expectations. That doesn't sound like her. She was always very practical about her skating, how could she not be as practical about her life.

 

[cazzer]

Dick Button

My coach has told me some great stories of the olden days of figure skating. I think the one about Dick is classic!

Apparently Dick was bragging everywhere about his upcoming 2nd Olympics and how he would be the first ever to do a triple jump. Since winning in 1948, he was under pressure each year to add another element that had never been done before. The triple was planned for about the 3 minute mark of his performance. He was absolutely dying by the 3 minute mark and had nothing left to feel he could even attempt any jump, let alone the triple loop. Then he realized how much pressure he had put on himself to do it, and he just squeezed in as hard as he could and somehow pulled it off.

Noting like putting the pressure on yourself!! Leave it to Dick to brag, but then pull it out in the end anyway - stuff of champions!

 

[fairly4]

for all you fans who thought michelle would turn pro/ retire after tthe 1998 olympics .michelle before the olympics she would have stayed in until 2002 no matter what-it was only After 2002 that Michelle stated if she won the 2002 gold she didn't know if she would stay in but prior to 2002 in 1998 . Michelle would have stayed in.

tara didn't know what she would do.
michelle w

 

[Tinymavy15]

I just found it unusual the top 3 were practically tied (although I think only Irina was truly clean-Sasha had a iffy landing on the 2ax and Shiz had a bobble on what was to be a 3lz/3lp turned into 3lz/2t)

Irina's combo was not perfect either. She had no speed going into the second jump which is why she only did a double. The fact that she was practically tied with Sasha was absurd, but the judges just ate her up.

My coach has told me some great stories of the olden days of figure skating. I think the one about Dick is classic!

Apparently Dick was bragging everywhere about his upcoming 2nd Olympics and how he would be the first ever to do a triple jump. Since winning in 1948, he was under pressure each year to add another element that had never been done before. The triple was planned for about the 3 minute mark of his performance. He was absolutely dying by the 3 minute mark and had nothing left to feel he could even attempt any jump, let alone the triple loop. Then he realized how much pressure he had put on himself to do it, and he just squeezed in as hard as he could and somehow pulled it off.

Noting like putting the pressure on yourself!! Leave it to Dick to brag, but then pull it out in the end anyway - stuff of champions!

I love that! So much like Dick!